Round 22 v The Sharks

[soc123_au]

I totally understand the point BX Tom is making.

The whole narrative on here around the ball playing fullbacks and Dylan’s lack of passing or ball playing skills was toxic for a time.

It was rather sad at the time, and you can put Mitch Kenny in the same category. Until recently, given the criticism has somewhat subsided he copped the Dylan treatment and was subjected the same sort of undeserved criticism, hate or death riding, call it what you want but it was very real on here.

Yeah, there were a few that were fixated on the areas Dyl was lacking. At the time his ball playing was subpar, especially for a player that played juniors as a half. The observations were correct but I don't think anyone wanted him to fail. I was a bit frustrated that he wasn't better on that front, but loved him for his effort so was happy enough to let the ball playing slide. To his credit, he has worked hard on it and become a much better player than even his biggest supporters could have foreseen.

Same with Kenny, he was loved when he came into grade and most were pretty pleased when Tim Grant stepped aside to give him a full time spot. The criticism started when his development pretty much stopped and went stagnant. Again, thats how it played out, he hit a wall. Also to his credit he has put in the work and become better. And been given the wraps for it. It was never about hate.

The jury is still out on Soni. At this stage imo it's not looking good for him, I don't hate the bloke though. I'll also be happy to be proven wrong and eat the humble pie.

I think some on here confuse someone calling it how they see it at hatred, right or wrong it's observations and perception. No one hates anyone, except maybe @chrisD hating on RCG.

 

[soc123_au]

I don't think anyone expects people here to "blindly rate" a player. I dont think anyone hates a player either, certainly not for on field issues.

I think the issue is that disagreements on players get way too personal. So heated comments are made, the same points are driven home repeatedly and in general these aren't really accurate assessments of the situation, rather emotional responses to personal disagreements between forum members. But the net effect is the appearance of either blind support or hate for the player himself and not grounded in how they're actually doing on the field or their potential.

I think a lot of it could be improved by a bit less all or nothing, nuance free posting which stakes out a binary position, and much less digging at other forum members, even when you feel baited to do so or personally slighted. Just cut the circuit and move on and we'll have a much better level of discourse here.

Needs a second like button. I think you have summed it up pretty much perfectly.

Edit, just to add, I think most of the time those with the more negative opinions will explain their reasoning pretty well, it does then get lost in the back and forth. The responses are often shit like "Ivan knows more than you" which is most likely correct, but a piss poor counter to a genuine discussion.

 

[BxTom]

A bit of Hyperbole there mate. I'm in the Soni is a wasted spot in the 17 camp, but I've been a staunch Edwards supporter, the only time I've doubted him is when he was constantly injured. I also recall Umina fan boying him hard when he came into 1st grade.

I really dont understand the school of thought that unless you blindly rate a player you are hating on them and death riding. Having an opinion that a player doesn't have what it takes is much different to hoping they fail.

Who said I rate Soni? I am not too sure about him either, but I don't constantly ride him either. There were several death riding Dyl early in the piece in every second post they made. And that's a fact, not hyperbole. Now they say they were just hoping for improvement. I am pretty confident that the bulk of the poster here are not fooled by that argument

 

[Kilkenny]

I think some on here confuse someone calling it how they see it at hatred, right or wrong it's observations and perception. No one hates anyone, except maybe @chrisD hating on RCG.

I don’t think there is any confusion Dylan was subjected to unreasonable criticism and those who perpetrated the criticism have been shown to be wrong. The criticism directed towards Dylan Edwards bordered on ridiculous and anyone with an objective perspective or opinion could see the player he has turned out to be.

 

[soc123_au]

Who said I rate Soni? I am not too sure about him either, but I don't constantly ride him either. There were several death riding Dyl early in the piece in every second post they made. And that's a fact, not hyperbole. Now they say they were just hoping for improvement. I am pretty confident that the bulk of the poster here are not fooled by that argument

Your opinion on Soni either way has no bearing on my post. It was about anyone having a negative opinion being considered a hater or death rider.

 

[WestyLife]

I deleted the comment because I can't be bothered with the ongoing rot you and your 'fan club' carryon with.

This is why you go on ignore. The other person's comment about personal jabs was spot on.

 

[WestyLife]

I don’t think there is any confusion Dylan was subjected to unreasonable criticism and those who perpetrated the criticism have been shown to be wrong. The criticism directed towards Dylan Edwards bordered on ridiculous and anyone with an objective perspective or opinion could see the player he has turned out to be.

Had no passing game and came back terribly out of form and confidence from injury. That was objectively true at the time. People didn't like it because they find it upsetting to have the club or players be criticised for any reason at all and no matter how well thought out the reasons are.

 

[soc123_au]

I don’t think there is any confusion Dylan was subjected to unreasonable criticism and those who perpetrated the criticism have been shown to be wrong. The criticism directed towards Dylan Edwards bordered on ridiculous and anyone with an objective perspective or opinion could see the player he has turned out to be.

Criticism warranted or not doesn't equal hate. Thats why when you hate brussells sprouts you say you hate them, you dont critique them. 2 very different things.

 

[Kilkenny]

Criticism warranted or not doesn't equal hate. Thats why when you hate brussells sprouts you say you hate them, you dont critique them. 2 very different things.

You’re promoting your opinion and the opinion of others the criticism was warranted . I’m suggesting it wasn’t. I didn’t see the issues you and others were so keen to premote.

No different to earlier this season when I was going into bat for Isaac Tago when the same pundits on here wanted to promote the myth Isaac Tago couldn’t pass. It was ridiculous, a couple of games, the criticism was stupid then and has since been proven so.

 

[ACTPanthers]

 

[soc123_au]

You’re promoting your opinion and the opinion of others the criticism was warranted . I’m suggesting it wasn’t. I didn’t see the issues you and others were so keen to premote.

No different to earlier this season when I was going into bat for Isaac Tago when the same pundits on here wanted to promote the myth Isaac Tago couldn’t pass. It was ridiculous, a couple of games, the criticism was stupid then and has since been proven so.

No, thats not what I'm promoting at all. I'm promoting that posters have the right to express their opinions without being labeled as haters. I didn't agree with some of the Tago stuff either, but at no time did I think anyone hated him or wanted him gone. I could see where they coming from in some of it, he did seem reluctant to pass for a few games, to me I just saw it as a young bloke finding his way and having a bit of a flat spot. The criticism can be a bit over the top sometimes, but in 99% of cases it is based on something that actually happened.

 

[WestyLife]

View attachment 77610

I get baited too easy. I'm a master at it.

 

[Kilkenny]

No, thats not what I'm promoting at all. I'm promoting that posters have the right to express their opinions without being labeled as haters. I didn't agree with some of the Tago stuff either, but at no time did I think anyone hated him or wanted him gone. I could see where they coming from in some of it, he did seem reluctant to pass for a few games, to me I just saw it as a young bloke finding his way and having a bit of a flat spot. The criticism can be a bit over the top sometimes, but in 99% of cases it is based on something that actually happened.

Are you not mounting an argument against a position that you agree with.

It probably doesn’t matter really what camp you are in, sadly there is no common ground.

It is rather unfathomable really given we are in the midst of another successful season.

 

[age.s]

Edit, just to add, I think most of the time those with the more negative opinions will explain their reasoning pretty well, it does then get lost in the back and forth. The responses are often shit like "Ivan knows more than you" which is most likely correct, but a piss poor counter to a genuine discussion.

There's a bunch of this from both sides though. One line responses about how bad a guy is going or how stupid those in charge are for picking/sticking with him.

While neither approach is particularly good posting, at least the "have some faith in the brains trust" position correlates with reality. We're in an unprecedented period of dominance, in an era where sustained dominance is supposed to be impossible. We didn't buy our way there, we developed this crop of elite players ourselves and have built what appears to be an incredible development structure that allows players to flourish in a cohesive system. By all metrics we're currently one of the best run outfits in the modern era and a truly incredible story of good management in a field notorious for bad management.

If we were still a Matt Elliott led basket case the negative positions would (and did at the time) carry much more weight to them. I know we have inherent reactions against relentless positivity from those dark dark times, but I don't think relentless negativity really has much validity here atm if we're being honest with ourselves.

 

[soc123_au]

Are you not mounting an argument against a position that you agree with.

It probably doesn’t matter really what camp you are in, sadly there is no common ground.

It is rather unfathomable really given we are in the midst of another successful season.

I'm not sure I'm following you. My opinion on whether player x is shit or not doesn't matter, if someone bags them and gives reasons why (which is how it usually goes) then I don't have a problem with it. If I care enough I'll counter with my opinion or mostly just read on. I just don't see it as deathriding or hatred, it's just how someone sees something. I get more frustrated with the standard cheerleader responses, trust the process, Ivan knows best etc. If you are going to weigh in, have a counter ffs. I don't mean you personally in that last sentence, just generalising.

You've been here pretty much from day 1 and PI before that. It's the same shit.

Robbie Beckett is a crab only runs sideways. Trust the process, Royce knows better than you.

Paul Franze has glue on his hands. H8r

Luke Walsh is shit and afraid of contact. He is in our colours so we must support him

Purtell is aids He is trying his best

You know how it goes.

 

[soc123_au]

There's a bunch of this from both sides though. One line responses about how bad a guy is going or how stupid those in charge are for picking/sticking with him.

While neither approach is particularly good posting, at least the "have some faith in the brains trust" position correlates with reality. We're in an unprecedented period of dominance, in an era where sustained dominance is supposed to be impossible. We didn't buy our way there, we developed this crop of elite players ourselves and have built what appears to be an incredible development structure that allows players to flourish in a cohesive system. By all metrics we're currently one of the best run outfits in the modern era and a truly incredible story of good management in a field notorious for bad management.

If we were still a Matt Elliott led basket case the negative positions would (and did at the time) carry much more weight to them. I know we have inherent reactions against relentless positivity from those dark dark times, but I don't think relentless negativity really has much validity here atm if we're being honest with ourselves.

I think part of it is fear of going back to the dark times and always looking at improving.

For the most part I enjoy reading both sides of a discussion, as long as it's a reasoned discussion.

 

[Munky]

Edwards as late as the 2021 GF was murdering overlaps.

Such a serial killer of potential tries he was going to appear in season 3 of Mindhunter before Fincher canned it.

I'm not sure that's even an arguable point.

Kenny until mid this year could barely pass from hooker after fifty odd games.

Credit to both they've improved out of sight in areas they were lacking.

With Luke I've gone from wanting him to come on earlier to not wanting him in the seventeen. The intensity in attack and more importantly in defence just seems to drop when he is on the park.

Maybe a full off-season and a bit more bulk will change things next year but for 2023 Soni isn't it.

 

[Kilkenny]

I'm not sure I'm following you. My opinion on whether player x is shit or not doesn't matter, if someone bags them and gives reasons why (which is how it usually goes) then I don't have a problem with it. If I care enough I'll counter with my opinion or mostly just read on. I just don't see it as deathriding or hatred, it's just how someone sees something. I get more frustrated with the standard cheerleader responses, trust the process, Ivan knows best etc. If you are going to weigh in, have a counter ffs. I don't mean you personally in that last sentence, just generalising.

You've been here pretty much from day 1 and PI before that. It's the same shit.

Robbie Beckett is a crab only runs sideways. Trust the process, Royce knows better than you.

Paul Franze has glue on his hands. H8r

Luke Walsh is shit and afraid of contact. He is in our colours so we must support him

Purtell is aids He is trying his best

You know how it goes.

We’re going around in circles. I’m sure we both understand both perspectives if not necessarily going to agree.

Maybe during the lesser years I too provided criticism of certain players I don’t quite remember.

I always thought Petero had a dig in his time with us but others didn’t share my opinion.

Fan forums go figure.

 

[ColdWetPanther]

Had no passing game and came back terribly out of form and confidence from injury. That was objectively true at the time.

While we are all having this navel gazing exercise….

My issues are the posts that don’t allow for debate. I am not picking on WestyLife specifically, because there are a number of posters (both in the fanboy and death rider sides) that post in a way that doesn’t allow for debate. The fact that some may think that this is an objective analysis (and again, it is just an example, but telling that it is an example raised during this very debate) beggars belief. Worse still, from there it often also gets personal (and I have been at fault with that too).

 

[WestyLife]

While we are all having this navel gazing exercise….

My issues are the posts that don’t allow for debate. I am not picking on WestyLife specifically, because there are a number of posters (both in the fanboy and death rider sides) that post in a way that doesn’t allow for debate. The fact that some may think that this is an objective analysis (and again, it is just an example, but telling that it is an example raised during this very debate) beggars belief. Worse still, from there it often also gets personal (and I have been at fault with that too).

I was just bouncing of what Kilkenny said about being objective. Those criticisms were objective. Greg alexander himself has commented on Dyl and his struggles earlier.