Round 6 v Souths

[franklin2323]

All these excuses about the weather are ridiculous, firstly our attack has looked anemic all season, secondly the weather didn't stop Souths from looking far more threatening than our team.

We have two non-creative halves, we can only carry one of them. Soward's kicking game has been great, I think he needs to be paired with someone who can take the line on and create.

Wallace is a passenger

Yep. Look at Tigers with similar ball last week in worse conditions. Manly yesterday. Teams can score points just not us. We are far from hopeless but a few tweaks we are there. Yep Soward has the better kicking game and throws a mean cutout pass.

When we were attack their line. We kept going right and everytime Inglis was there. So why not dummy right and go left. Idris/Mansour getting one on one with Merritt. pretty much a try or if not would get the defence thinking

 

[abpanther]

Put it this way, I don't think we lose anything by replacing Wallace with Moylan in the halves, the only difference is Moylan has room to grow and develop in that role, Wallace is a finished product.

 

[franklin2323]

Put it this way, I don't think we lose anything by replacing Wallace with Moylan in the halves, the only difference is Moylan has room to grow and develop in that role, Wallace is a finished product.

We might miss a few more tackles but overall our structure should still be there. Like our backrow the halves are both the same style. I don't see that working even with no rain all season

 

[Big Mick]

Except our defense would struggle and Moylan would get run over consistently.

Apart from that...yeah no change.

I'm all for Moylan transitioning to the halves but going straight to halfback without getting experience playing it in NSW Cup is idiotic.

 

[abpanther]

Except our defense would struggle and Moylan would get run over consistently.

Apart from that...yeah no change.

Well mate at some stage you have to start accepting that we aren't going to get very far if we can't score points so you have to sacrifice some defense for some attacking spark and creativity.

Yes we can win some arm wrestles against poorer teams but I don't wanna see our team scrape into the 8 and then get bundled out straight away, we should be building a balanced team in attack and defense.

 

[abpanther]

I'm all for Moylan transitioning to the halves but going straight to halfback without getting experience playing it in NSW Cup is idiotic.

Really?

What so your suggestion is that when we are ready to trial him in the halves he goes back to NSW Cup for 6-10 games?

That sounds pretty idiotic to me given the guy has already proven that he can play at this level and he played plenty of junior footy in the halves

 

[Big Mick]

I don't get how you can say Soward is not creative? I mean his passing game has won us two games and his cut out pass is amazing.

Not only that but his kicking game has been off the charts and has surprisingly been pretty decent in defense.

Soward has been exceptional so far this season. I'm not his biggest fan on a personal level but any suggestion otherwise is just using bias to form opinion.

 

[abpanther]

I don't get how you can say Soward is not creative? I mean his passing game has won us two games and his cut out pass is amazing.

Not only that but his kicking game has been off the charts and has surprisingly been pretty decent in defense.

Soward has been exceptional so far this season. I'm not his biggest fan on a personal level but any suggestion otherwise is just using bias to form opinion.

Soward is not a creative half dude, yes he can throw a nice cut out ball, is a dangerous broken field runner and has a great kicking game, but he doesn't create for others on a regular basis.

I agree that Soward has been good, no argument from me.

Also, reading your long post you talk about the need to give it some time, the problem is mate you need to have some perspective, Wallace already has a long track record of being this type of player, what makes you think that time is going to change anything? He's a finished product, what you see is what you're gonna get tomorrow and for the rest of his career.

 

[Big Mick]

Really?

What so your suggestion is that when we are ready to trial him in the halves he goes back to NSW Cup for 6-10 games?

That sounds pretty idiotic to me given the guy has already proven that he can play at this level and he played plenty of junior footy in the halves

He hasn't proven he can play halfback at the NRL level. Junior footy in the halves means shit.

Given you want to shift him to the halves means you want him gone from fullback correct?

So yeah, in that instance...drop him back to NSW Cup to learn the craft. It's not idiotic...it is what is beneficial for him if this change is to be made.

If we put him straight to halfback and he can't handle it...what does that do to his confidence? Using "He played halfback in SG Ball" is not good enough reason for him to be an NRL halfback without having to learn the craft in Reggies.

 

[abpanther]

He hasn't proven he can play halfback at the NRL level. Junior footy in the halves means shit.

Given you want to shift him to the halves means you want him gone from fullback correct?

So yeah, in that instance...drop him back to NSW Cup to learn the craft. It's not idiotic...it is what is beneficial for him if this change is to be made.

If we put him straight to halfback and he can't handle it...what does that do to his confidence? Using "He played halfback in SG Ball" is not good enough reason for him to be an NRL halfback without having to learn the craft in Reggies.

No he hasn't but he has shown that he can play second receiver at this level and create opportunities for his outside backs.

The reality is he is not our future fullback, he's too slow, so we should start thinking about where his future lies and I think he can help our team in the halves

 

[franklin2323]

Also, reading your long post you talk about the need to give it some time, the problem is mate you need to have some perspective, Wallace already has a long track record of being this type of player, what makes you think that time is going to change anything? He's a finished product, what you see is what you're gonna get tomorrow and for the rest of his career.

True. Are we seeing anything different from Wallace that we have the last 3 years in a Broncos Jersey? He would go fine with Sutton or Josh Reynolds or someone that takes on the line.

 

[Big Mick]

Soward is not a creative half dude, yes he can throw a nice cut out ball, is a dangerous broken field runner and has a great kicking game, but he doesn't create for others on a regular basis.

I agree that Soward has been good, no argument from me.

Also, reading your long post you talk about the need to give it some time, the problem is mate you need to have some perspective, Wallace already has a long track record of being this type of player, what makes you think that time is going to change anything? He's a finished product, what you see is what you're gonna get tomorrow and for the rest of his career.

Dude I know Wallace is a finished product but I just want to see what he does with the talent he has around him here before slamming him. Right now we have 4 games evidence of his play and imo he has been great in 1, good in 1, average/bad in 2.

I don't think he has been nearly as bad as people are making out here.

I think players can evolve within a structure and while Wallace may not be a gamebreaker I believe he is doing the job the coach wants of him. I don't think he is operating outside the confines of the game plan.

Is he creative...you wont get an argument from me that he is. I definitely think he is what he is...but it doesn't mean he can't make the best of the talent around him. Most good halfbacks take advantage of the talent around them while not being overly creative themselves.

In the NRL how many true creative halves are there?
Shaun Johnson - flashy but structure wise is very limited
Albert Kelly - Been good in his time at halfback but very streaky
Chris Sandow - 3 games does not a career make and has a history of going off the rails and not adhering to gameplan
Jonothan Thurston - Best in NRL but this year has just been a facilitator.
Gareth Widdop? - Maybe...

Now there are plenty in the NRL that make the most of the talent around them:
Cooper Cronk - Great halfback, but makes the most of the talent around him to get them in the right position.
Daly Cherry-Evans - Again, great young halfback but he still uses the talent around him and not necessarily creates opportunities himself. HOWEVER, he does take on the line which is great to see.
Adam Reynolds - has been off this year but again uses the talent around him.

So we need to know what we want. We would all love to have a Shaun Johnson type here. But that aint going to happen.

Do I believe Wallace will be anywhere near those halves I mentioned in the 2nd part....hell no...I'm not stupid. But realistically who else is available that can fill that role? Moylan has never done it on an NRL level and we know what John is capable of.

So having said that...I'm just trying to make the best of a bad situation. I believe Wallace is working within the gameplan the coach is setting and I would like to see a larger sample size of him in 2014 in a Panthers jersey before saying "Ok...it's time to move on". That's all.

I'm showing perspective but also want to have an educated opinion based on a larger 2014 sample size.

 

[abpanther]

True. Are we seeing anything different from Wallace that we have the last 3 years in a Broncos Jersey? He would go fine with Sutton or Josh Reynolds or someone that takes on the line.

And that's what I thought when we signed him.

I don't have a problem with Wallace or Soward, but to me it's one or the other.

 

[Big Mick]

No he hasn't but he has shown that he can play second receiver at this level and create opportunities for his outside backs.

The reality is he is not our future fullback, he's too slow, so we should start thinking about where his future lies and I think he can help our team in the halves

As do I, but I don't want to expose him too early as it is a massive jump.

He is too slight to be defending in the line and while we may be able to hide him defensively it would hurt our overall structure in defense which is what we've worked so hard on. It'd be like having Luke Walsh defending there again.

So knowing he wont be long term at fullback, lets give him some time to hone his craft as a halfback in Reggies and promote the player we foresee to be better as a FB right now in Naiqama or DWZ.

Then when he does make the leap he is then ready to do so and to handle the load defensively.

 

[franklin2323]

And that's what I thought when we signed him.

I don't have a problem with Wallace or Soward, but to me it's one or the other.

Yep. Soward's kicking and passing game puts him way infront

 

[betcats]

Moylan surely would not be a worse defender then guys like Carney, Maloney, Brooks etc..I think he could handle the defensive workload with the same help those guys get.

I dont know if he is ready for the switch or not but I dont think defense should be too much of a worry.

That being said I havent been that disappointed with Wallace. On friday it looked like he was the only chance at creating something other then Whare getting outside his man a couple times to open it up for Dallin(Tough game for Dallin but I love his confidence and physically seems to be up to it).

 

[grifter]

I would really like to see the following (and not outside the realms of possibility) team:

1. Moylan
2. Mansour
3. Idris
4. Whare
5. Simmons/Nabuli
6. Soward
7. Wallace
8. Plum
9. Segeyaro
10. Grant
11. Taylor
12. Robinson
13. Docker

14. Kite
15. Manu
16. McKendry
17. Peachy

I think a lot of people have underestimated Simmons, in the Simmons/Whare combination. I think Simmons scores that try in the corner that DWZ dropped and possibly gives us another option in the air of Soward and Wallace kicks.

I think Docker and Taylor have to stay as they get through a mountain of defensive work, and also have potential for growth being young players. Whether us fans like it or not, defensive muscle is going to play a big part in Cleary's game plans now and in the future. Robinson runs great lines and is very handy with an offload, would love to see him back in the team.

Its painful to drop Kingston, but I would at least like to see one game where Segs plays 80 mins of hooker.

I like Plum and Grant starting because Plum can stiffed up the middle while Grant (whom I thought was really good in the early exchanges against Souths) can eat meters.

The bench (barring Kite) has some great impact and flexibility. McKendry is that impact forward we need, and Manu looks a bit underdone but looked to be the only forward against Souths that understood the concept of an 'offload', I realize the wet also probably had a lot to do with this.

 

[Big Mick]

Moylan surely would not be a worse defender then guys like Carney, Maloney, Brooks etc..I think he could handle the defensive workload with the same help those guys get.

I dont know if he is ready for the switch or not but I dont think defense should be too much of a worry.

I agree to an extent but I think the key difference though is that we've got a defensive structure at present that doesn't require a player to be hidden.

If we go back to that it may help us in attack but our structure in defense would need an overhaul also which could open up significantly more holes.

While I'm sure in time Moylan could handle it the key difference between him and the guys mentioned is that they have done it through reggies and NRL as well.

Moylan hasn't played up in the line for a while and to throw him in there without experience at the top level would be, imo, detrimental to his development. Learning how to read players lines and the technique required is different up in the line vs what is required at fullback where lets face it...he hasn't exactly been a defensive juggernaut (nor should he be).

That's the only reason I'd like him to go back to Reggies if that is the path we take with him - just to get the little things down pat so he is prepared.

 

[franklin2323]

I would really like to see the following (and not outside the realms of possibility) team:

1. Moylan
2. Mansour
3. Idris
4. Whare
5. Simmons/Nabuli
6. Soward
7. Wallace
8. Plum
9. Segeyaro
10. Grant
11. Taylor
12. Robinson
13. Docker

14. Kite
15. Manu
16. McKendry
17. Peachy

I think a lot of people have underestimated Simmons, in the Simmons/Whare combination. I think Simmons scores that try in the corner that DWZ dropped and possibly gives us another option in the air of Soward and Wallace kicks.

I think Docker and Taylor have to stay as they get through a mountain of defensive work, and also have potential for growth being young players. Whether us fans like it or not, defensive muscle is going to play a big part in Cleary's game plans now and in the future. Robinson runs great lines and is very handy with an offload, would love to see him back in the team.

Its painful to drop Kingston, but I would at least like to see one game where Segs plays 80 mins of hooker.

I like Plum and Grant starting because Plum can stiffed up the middle while Grant (whom I thought was really good in the early exchanges against Souths) can eat meters.

The bench (barring Kite) has some great impact and flexibility. McKendry is that impact forward we need, and Manu looks a bit underdone but looked to be the only forward against Souths that understood the concept of an 'offload', I realize the wet also probably had a lot to do with this.

That team could run out this week and we are no worse off defensively but have 3-4 more options in attack. Far better then we currently have.

 

[Big Mick]

That team could run out this week and we are no worse off defensively but have 3-4 more options in attack. Far better then we currently have.

How is it different to what I was saying then? lol

Aside from Robinson for Brown it was exactly what I was saying I would do and I would be in favour of that move as I like Robinson - I just think he looked off in the games in NSW Cup I've seen him in this year thus far.

Worst case I'd just like to see an exchange of Peachey in and Kingston out. IMO it would make us more balanced.

Then, as I had said before, work to phase out Brown through either Cartwright, Robinson or VTK.