Rugby league in dire straits in NSW as Queensland leads the way

[bobmar28]

That is not enough to get to your figure.
Maths isn't your strong point is it mate?

Well there are 9 clubs, so to get to 6 cull 3, to get to 5 cull 4:

Bulldogs
Dragons
Eels
Panthers
Rabbitohs (CC)
Roosters
Sea Eagles
Sharks (Adelaide)
Tigers

So the Sharks are moving to Adelaide, and we are moving to the CC.
You meed to give us at least one more, preferably two.

Merge the Eels and Panthers.

 

[Joker's Wild]

Why should we have 4 relocations? QLD alrwady has clubs in all those areas.

What clubs?
They have 1 club - The Broncos, who are presiding over a monopoly that they are sh*t scared of losing control of. Would you be happy for them to share the area for the good of the game?

I think the NRL would have to look at it first in great detail to determine the impact of losing four teams at once. Similarly, they would have to determine how many teams Brisbane could support. I am sure that Brisbane could support more than one team, and some competition wouldn't hurt the Broncos. It would be for the good of the game. Just like losing some Sydney teams would.

At least you managed to give me a sensible answer

 

[Sam I Am]

Would you be happy for them to share the area for the good of the game?

Yes.

 

[Timmah]

It is broke, but we are not death riding it. We love the game and want to see it improve. Maintaining the status quo will not improve things.

And your proof is?

Increased memberships for both clubs?

Increased crowds for most Sydney clubs compared with 5-10 years ago?

...?

 

[Timmah]

The only reason Brisbane are so damn successful is because they've had no challenge in the last 22 years apart from a couple of years of SQC in the mid-90's before the NRL peace agreement knocked them for six.

Football is now a business - Brisbane, as Jokers' Wild said, have a monopoly, while 3-4 clubs in that area have gone belly-up (Giants, Seagulls, Crushers from memory). If QLD is such a boom area then why in God's name can't anyone but the Broncos and now the Titans cut it there?

I don't think QLDers will be happy with the NSW situation until we're down to a Coles/Woolies type monopoly down here with two teams controlling the market...

 

[Sam I Am]

And your proof is?

Increased memberships for both clubs?

Increased crowds for most Sydney clubs compared with 5-10 years ago?

...?

Memberships have increased, however this alone won't stave off problems. As for crowds, I have rounded these to type quickly, but you can look them up.

1999 / 2009

Bulldogs 16.9k / 18.9k
Cronulla 13.9k / 10.6k
Manly 17.9k / 13.9k
Parra 23.2k / 13.4k
Penrith 12.4k / 12.8k
Souths 12.3k / 15.3k
Roosters 13k / 16.6k
STG/I 13.2k / 16.1k

Quite instructive. Not a huge amount of upward change in ten years, although some very troubling downward moves, especially when compared with:

Brisb 22.7k / 37.6k

However, the merger idea looks good when you compare

Balmain 9.7k (1999)
Wests 8.2k (1999)

with

Wests Tigers 17k (2009)

 

[Sam I Am]

Football is now a business - Brisbane, as Jokers' Wild said, have a monopoly, while 3-4 clubs in that area have gone belly-up (Giants, Seagulls, Crushers from memory). If QLD is such a boom area then why in God's name can't anyone but the Broncos and now the Titans cut it there?

Ask the NRL. They control licences, not people on internet forums.

I don't think QLDers will be happy with the NSW situation until we're down to a Coles/Woolies type monopoly down here with two teams controlling the market...

That would be a duopoly, champ! ;-)

 

[Timmah]

Brisbane's change can be quantified easily by the fact you played at QSAC, one of THE worst stadiums to watch league at with very little cover and a piss-poor location. Moving a stadium from 12km from the city centre to 2km from the city centre usually yields good results.

The Sydney stats speak for themselves, all teams bar Cronulla (their problems are well documented), Manly (don't understand why) and Parramatta (one word: Fitzy.) are up on ten years ago.

Having said that, you've failed to include any statistics between now and then. One of the users around here Dingb@t is good with tables around here, a comparison table in excel would better illustrate my point I'm sure.

All your stats do is tell me things in Sydney aren't as terrible as everyone fears, much like the panic over swine flu at the moment.

 

[Sam I Am]

Brisbane's change can be quantified easily by the fact you played at QSAC, one of THE worst stadiums to watch league at with very little cover and a piss-poor location. Moving a stadium from 12km from the city centre to 2km from the city centre usually yields good results.

Lesson for Sydney there.

The Sydney stats speak for themselves, all teams bar Cronulla (their problems are well documented), Manly (don't understand why) and Parramatta (one word: Fitzy.) are up on ten years ago.

They speak volumes. Bugger all upward movement.

Bulldogs +2k
Cronulla -3.4k
Manly -4k
Parra -9.8k
Penright +0.4k
Souths +2k
Roosters +3.3k
SGI +2.9k

The best team of the batch, the RoosterS, have in ten years put on just 3300 a game. That that's 330 people a year they have attracted in the last decade. And that's the best of the bunch. Parramatta have dropped nearly 1000 fans a year for the last decade. These figures are a debacle for Sydney! Is that less than population growth in Sydney for the last decade? Worth looking up, Tim!

Roosters' crowds would need to grow at this rate for about 70 years for them to catch Brisbane!

Having said that, you've failed to include any statistics between now and then. One of the users around here Dingb@t is good with tables around here, a comparison table in excel would better illustrate my point I'm sure.

You're the one who said to compare with ten years ago! If you have used a flawed methodology, so be it!

All your stats do is tell me things in Sydney aren't as terrible as everyone fears, much like the panic over swine flu at the moment.

Any upward movement is small. Some of the downward movements are massive. You mightn't think that is terrible. I do.

 

[Sam I Am]

Brisbane's change can be quantified easily by the fact you played at QSAC, one of THE worst stadiums to watch league at with very little cover and a piss-poor location. Moving a stadium from 12km from the city centre to 2km from the city centre usually yields good results.

By the way: I have already quantified them by giving a number. Perhaps you wish to qualify them.

 

[Timmah]

Now let's analyse those three clubs that have sh*t crowds in 2009 and why.

Manly, whilst reigning premiers, aren't winning games. They're running somewhere toward the bottom of the ladder.

Parramatta, the capacity of the stadium has been reduced with the advent of all-seater areas at the north and south ends. It can now only cater for 20,000.

And Cronulla, well, it's a sh*t stadium to be fair, it's not a comfortable place to watch footy and the scheduling of their games this season hasn't helped their cause.

 

[Sam I Am]

Now let's analyse those three clubs that have sh*t crowds in 2009 and why.

Manly, whilst reigning premiers, aren't winning games. They're running somewhere toward the bottom of the ladder.

Parramatta, the capacity of the stadium has been reduced with the advent of all-seater areas at the north and south ends. It can now only cater for 20,000.

And Cronulla, well, it's a sh*t stadium to be fair, it's not a comfortable place to watch footy and the scheduling of their games this season hasn't helped their cause.

Those are your excuses, and you are entitled to them. Looking over time, and a graph would be great if you want to do one up:

• Manly have been in decline since 2006.
• Parramatta have been in decline since 2005. Their average is nowhere near the capacity, so any reduction is no good excuse.
• Cronulla, other than a good year in 2006, have been doing nothing much at all in the last decade.

As for the "good" clubs that are going up, their rate of increase is appalling. The Roosters are only putting on 300 a year. At that rate, it would take them 70 years to catch the Broncos!

 

[TheBourbonBeast]

3 teams in Sydney...I would keep Roosters Souths and Sharks, and ditch the rest...that would be awesome....

 

[lockyrulz]

What clubs?

Ever heard of the QRL?

They have 1 club - The Broncos, who are presiding over a monopoly that they are sh*t scared of losing control of. Would you be happy for them to share the area for the good of the game?

See above.

At least you managed to give me a sensible answer

Tends to happen when you ask a sensible question.

 

[Blind Freddy]

Those are your excuses, and you are entitled to them. Looking over time, and a graph would be great if you want to do one up:

• Manly have been in decline since 2006.
• Parramatta have been in decline since 2005. Their average is nowhere near the capacity, so any reduction is no good excuse.
• Cronulla, other than a good year in 2006, have been doing nothing much at all in the last decade.

As for the "good" clubs that are going up, their rate of increase is appalling. The Roosters are only putting on 300 a year. At that rate, it would take them 70 years to catch the Broncos!

Just out of curiosity, what is it you want? Do you want these teams dead? Do you want more teams in QLD at the expense of Sydney clubs? or do you just like having a dig at clubs solely based on the fact they are in Sydney?

What is your gripe?

 

[Sam I Am]

Just out of curiosity, what is it you want? Do you want these teams dead? Do you want more teams in QLD at the expense of Sydney clubs? or do you just like having a dig at clubs solely based on the fact they are in Sydney?

What is your gripe?

No gripe, but poorly performing clubs in Sydney are holding the competition back. The salary cap is imposed at the current level to stop underperforming Sydney clubs who cannot draw a crowd (hence some of the financial woes) from going broke.

What do I think we need to do?

"Sydney clubs need to go. It is for the NRL to instigate a process to allow this to happen, and to select the appropriate clubs."

 

[Blind Freddy]

No gripe, but poorly performing clubs in Sydney are holding the competition back. The salary cap is imposed at the current level to stop underperforming Sydney clubs who cannot draw a crowd (hence some of the financial woes) from going broke.

Well i can't disagree with you there. I actually very much agree.

"What do I think we need to do?
"Sydney clubs need to go. It is for the NRL to instigate a process to allow this to happen, and to select the appropriate clubs."

This is where i tend to disagree, no club needs to go or be forced out. It's just really negligent PR for the game. I see some darwinism needs so happen instead of pushing teams out, which would just play in favour of the other codes. Natural deaths seem easier to cope with for the general public to handle

The NRL should expand and just place any team where it sees fit. The Clubs that are holding the competition back through mismanagement will die their natural death in due course. Survival of the fittest.

Ideally The NRL should grow the pie so everyone can get a larger share. That way any location that can sustain a team can be admitted into the NRL competeition with ease without the worry of the current stragglers halting progress or being placed under pressure should new clubs be added.

 

[lockyrulz]

Well i can't disagree with you there. I actually very much agree.



This is where i tend to disagree, no club needs to go or be forced out. It's just really negligent PR for the game. I see some darwinism needs so happen instead of pushing teams out, which would just play in favour of the other codes. Natural deaths seem easier to cope with for the general public to handle

The NRL should expand and just place any team where it sees fit. The Clubs that are holding the competition back through mismanagement will die their natural death in due course. Survival of the fittest.

Ideally The NRL should grow the pie so everyone can get a larger share. That way any location that can sustain a team can be admitted into the NRL competeition with ease without the worry of the current stragglers halting progress or being placed under pressure should new clubs be added.

But even that doesn't happen. The NRL currently panders to the lowest common denominator. If for example the salary cap was increased to something say the Titans could afford, Sydney clubs would be up in arms.

So it isn't simply a case of waiting for clubs to die off, and this in itself has seen a considerable amount of players gone to union/esl etc.

 

[Sam I Am]

This is where i tend to disagree, no club needs to go or be forced out. It's just really negligent PR for the game. I see some darwinism needs so happen instead of pushing teams out, which would just play in favour of the other codes. Natural deaths seem easier to cope with for the general public to handle

Fair point. There are two ways of looking at this problem. With respect to PR, I think it is possible to spin relocating, for example, a team to a new location into a big positive.

The NRL should expand and just place any team where it sees fit. The Clubs that are holding the competition back through mismanagement will die their natural death in due course. Survival of the fittest.

I agree strongly with this, as it turns out. Indeed, this could be part of a strategy the NRL could employ.

Ideally The NRL should grow the pie so everyone can get a larger share. That way any location that can sustain a team can be admitted into the NRL competeition with ease without the worry of the current stragglers halting progress or being placed under pressure should new clubs be added.

I agree that the pie needs to grow, but realistically, I am not sure we have enough ingredients to go around to expand out to 20 teams (or whatever amount) without diluting the "product". (At least we aren't the ARU who struggle with four teams.)

Furthermore, Sydney isn't really a market of 9 league teams, it is a market of 12 professional sporting teams, each wanting a share of the sponsorship pie and potential fanbase. Instead of tapping this limited resource, a team could flourish if they tapped unsullied waters.

 

[Blind Freddy]

Fair point. There are two ways of looking at this problem. With respect to PR, I think it is possible to spin relocating, for example, a team to a new location into a big positive.

This is where the sh*t hits the fan. It's the fans of the clubs in question that will refuse to agree with relocating and they will make the noise that creates the rocking of the relocation boat.

I highly doubt the NRL has the creative know how to positvely market a relocation. They barely have the skills in marketing the sport as a whole as it is. The phrases or words "Good marketing" and "NRL" are rarely ever seen together.

This is partly why the North Sydney Bears demise has left a bad taste. It was all amicable, everybody was pro-relocation which would never happen thesedays.

I agree strongly with this, as it turns out. Indeed, this could be part of a strategy the NRL could employ.



I agree that the pie needs to grow, but realistically, I am not sure we have enough ingredients to go around to expand out to 20 teams (or whatever amount) without diluting the "product". (At least we aren't the ARU who struggle with four teams.)

We shall see what happens, but i think this the route they will actually go, but at a slow pace. Every TV rights deal that is negotiated (2012 the next) the NRL might add a team or 2. Therefore Extra money will be generated, and the stragglers have time to catch up. The straggler Sydney clubs are like someone on the dole between fortnightly pay cheques, but in this case TV rights deals.

Furthermore, Sydney isn't really a market of 9 league teams, it is a market of 12 professional sporting teams, each wanting a share of the sponsorship pie and potential fanbase. Instead of tapping this limited resource, a team could flourish if they tapped unsullied waters.

But at the same token, Sydney is an extremely crucial market/audience for Rugby League in the country. Even QLDers should recognise this. The saturation of NRL teams in Sydney can be a positive if done correctly. Other codes will struggle to gain a foothold in the largest popualtion this country has. It's all about the execution of management for it to work though.