Rumoured & Confirmed Signings - Part 5

[Smug Panther]

Hmmmm as a rule I don't normally agree with anything from that rubbish website but yeah losing Api is such a bad management decision

 

[Whino]

Part 2

2010 – St George Illawarra Dragons 32 – 8 Sydney Roosters


Grand final-winning hooker: Dean Young
Rep experience: One game for NSW, one game for Australia
Did player leave next season? No
Opponent hooker: Jake Friend (three games for Queensland)


2011 – Manly-Warringah Sea Eagles 24 – 10 New Zealand Warriors


Grand final-winning hooker: Matt Ballin
Rep experience: One game for Queensland
Did player leave next season? No
Opponent hooker: Lance Hohaia (28 games for NZ)


2012 – Melbourne Storm 14 – 4 Canterbury-Bankstown Bulldogs


Grand final-winning Hooker: Cameron Smith
Rep Experience: 42 games for Queensland, 56 games for Australia
Did player leave next season? No
Opponent hooker: Michael Ennis (eight games for NSW)


2013 – Sydney Roosters 26 – 18 Manly-Warringah Sea Eagles


Grand final-winning hooker: Jake Friend
Rep experience: Three games for Queensland
Did player leave next season? No
Opponent hooker: Matt Ballin (one game for Queensland)
2014 – South Sydney Rabbitohs 30 – 6 Canterbury – Bankstown Bulldogs


Grand final-winning Hooker: Api Koroisau (*Issac Luke suspended)
Rep experience: Three games for NSW (*43 games for New Zealand)
Did player leave next season? Yes (*no)
If so next season finish: Seventh, lost in finals week one
Opponent hooker: Moses Mbye (three games for Queensland) *Mick Ennis injured (eight games for NSW)


2015 – North Queensland Cowboys 17 – 16 Brisbane Broncos


Grand final-winning hooker: Jake Granville
Rep Experience: No
Did player leave next season? No
Opponent hooker: Andrew McCullough (four games for Queensland)


2016 – Cronulla-Sutherland Sharks 14 – 12 Melbourne Storm


Grand final-winning Hooker: Mick Ennis
Rep Experience: Eight games for NSW
Did player leave next season? Yes
If so next season finish: Fifth, lost in finals week one
Opponent hooker: Cameron Smith (42 games for Queensland, 56 games for Australia)


2017 – Melbourne Storm 34 – 6 North Queensland Cowboys


Grand final-winning Hooker: Cameron Smith
Rep Experience: 42 games for Queensland, 56 games for Australia
Did player leave next season? No
Opponent Hooker: Jake Granville (no rep experience)


2018 – Sydney Roosters 21 – 6 Melbourne Storm


Grand Final-winning Hooker: Jake Friend
Rep Experience: Three games for Queensland
Did player leave next season? No
Opponent Hooker: Cameron Smith (42 games for Queensland, 56 games for Australia)


2019 – Sydney Roosters 14 – 8 Canberra Raiders


Grand final-winning hooker: Sam Verrills/Jake Friend
Rep experience: No/three games for Queensland
Did player leave next season? No
Opponent Hooker: Josh Hodgson (19 games for England, four games for Great Britain)


2020 – Melbourne Storm 26 – 20 Penrith Panthers


Grand final-winning hooker: Cameron Smith
Rep Experience: 42 games for Queensland, 56 games for Australia
Did player leave next season? Yes
If so next season finish: First, lost preliminary final
Opponent hooker: Api Koroisau (three games for NSW)


2021 – Penrith Panthers 14 – 12 South Sydney Rabbitohs


Grand final-winning hooker: Api Koroisau
Rep Experience: Three games for NSW
Did player leave next season? No
Opponent hooker: Damien Cook (15 games for NSW, four games for Australia)

If you’ve stuck with me this long, I’m sure that you have picked up on the alarming trend that I am trying to magnify: quality hookers aren’t just important, they are crucial to winning premierships.


Of the last 24 premiership-winning hookers, only four did not play, or go onto play representative football. That’s only 16.6 per cent.


Only seven of the last 24 runners-up featured a hooker with no eventual rep experience.


Only four premiership sides have let their starting hooker leave after winning the title. None of those sides went back to back, and only one made it to the Grand Final (Roosters 2003). In fact, outside of the Roosters, none of those sides who instantly parted ways with their rake ever made it to a grand final again!


If we extrapolate to include instances where the winning hooker eventually leaves (in other words not straight after lifting the trophy), only the following teams have gone on to win another premiership since.
– 2000 Brisbane Broncos (Phillip Lee left, but not directly after original 1998 winning season)
– 2006 Brisbane Broncos (Luke Priddis left, but not directly after original winning 2000 season)


That’s it, that’s the list.


In fact, only five NRL era sides have gone on to win another grand final after letting their premiership hooker go at any point: the two Brisbane sides detailed above, and the Sydney Roosters in 2013, 2018 & 2019.


All five of those sides featured a No.9 who had played or would go on to play rep footy (Luke Priddis, Shaun Berrigan and Jake Friend).


Now a lot of the above data may be skewed by the dominance by the immortal Cameron Smith and you might argue that I have been generous in including players rep experience after the fact.


However, the data speaks for itself: clubs don’t let premiership-winning hookers go, clubs don’t let representative hookers go, and when they do, they usually don’t recover.


This tells me three things about Penrith’s decision to let Api Koroisau walk this off-season:


1. They must really rate Mitch Kenny
2. They have their eye on another elite hooker who might potentially come available (here’s a hint: they don’t)
3. They think they can make do without an elite hooker and become the fifth team to win without one (in the NRL era)


It seems unfair that I have gone this far without mentioning Penrith’s rake in waiting: Mitch Kenny. Kenny too is a Penrith junior, the same age as the key players retained by the Panthers, playing alongside his compatriots in the under-20s system.


After some time in NSW Cup he made his debut for the first grade side in their Round 11 victory over the Eels in 2019. Since then he has played 54 games, mostly off the bench or to fill in for Api Koroisau.


This is a standard introduction to first grade for an aspiring hooker, as they await an opportunity from the incumbent. However, Kenny did not feature in last year’s preliminary or grand final, ditto for the 2020 grand final loss to Melbourne.


He has played more this year, with 19 games at an average of 33 mins off the bench (this would be skewed with Koroisau missing games through State of Origin commitments) but the reading still presents a largely unproven player that the Panthers are putting a lot of faith in for 2023 and beyond.


Here are his stats compared to Koroisau this season:


Mitch Kenny (19 games) vs Api Koroisau (23 games)
– 1 linebreak – 6 linebreaks
– 2 line break assists – 14 line break assists
– 2 try Assists – 13 try assists
– 1 try – 4 tries
– 22.5 tackles per match – 41 tackles per match


Signed until the end of 2024, Kenny might become a rep player in the future and make me eat my words, but so far I am not convinced.


Penrith have done an admirable job at retaining key members of their spine and there will be some continued stability as a result, but the idea of future dominance as an assumed formality is astonishing.


In the NRL era there has only truly been one dynasty, a side led by the best hooker and player in rugby league history.


The Panthers are cruising right now, but they have their work cut out for them if they want to reach those same heights.

History suggests Penrith’s premiership window may be closing quicker than you think

As the NRL season rapidly approaches its penultimate rounds, top eight hopefuls are jostling amongst each other for seeding, home finals and second chances.…

www.theroar.com.au

Very valid points.

 

[Iamback]

Hmmmm as a rule I don't normally agree with anything from that rubbish website but yeah losing Api is such a bad management decision

They have pretty much nailed most of the decisions over the last few years, This is not one

 

[Aliceinwonderland]

It will be fascinating to see.

Luke and Kenny may surprise a lot of folks.

Time will tell.

 

[Whino]

They have pretty much nailed most of the decisions over the last few years, This is not one

The late great Peter Mullholland once said. You can't get every call right.
This appears to be one of them.

 

[Bob]

With Api going I'm concerned like most on here about starting with Luke / Kenny, happy enough to have Soni as our number 2 hooker but Kenny doesnt impress me as a hooker, maybe as an interchange 2nd rower, I think as the Tigers are letting go of Liddel I think we should maybe make him an offer

 

[ColdWetPanther]

A lot of people going off very early about how much of a disaster next year will be….

Two years ago it was we couldn’t win with Dyl at the back and needed more creativity. Last year we couldn’t win without Nathan. This year it is Api that makes the team.

I tend to think that we have a wonderful team with a number of star players. Next year we lose a star but still have the team, and have a high character player who has shown incredible improvement coming into carry. It might be a disaster, but the improvement of all players who get meaningful game time in our system (including Api who was a benchie/reserve grader when he got here) gives me confidence we will cover and the SOO halves, great link man, robotic back five and tough as nails pack will have us at or near the top next year.

 

[Aliceinwonderland]

A lot of people going off very early about how much of a disaster next year will be….

Two years ago it was we couldn’t win with Dyl at the back and needed more creativity. Last year we couldn’t win without Nathan. This year it is Api that makes the team.

I tend to think that we have a wonderful team with a number of star players. Next year we lose a star but still have the team, and have a high character player who has shown incredible improvement coming into carry. It might be a disaster, but the improvement of all players who get meaningful game time in our system (including Api who was a benchie/reserve grader when he got here) gives me confidence we will cover and the SOO halves, great link man, robotic back five and tough as nails pack will have us at or near the top next year.

So very true.

 

[Whino]

A lot of people going off very early about how much of a disaster next year will be….

Two years ago it was we couldn’t win with Dyl at the back and needed more creativity. Last year we couldn’t win without Nathan. This year it is Api that makes the team.

I tend to think that we have a wonderful team with a number of star players. Next year we lose a star but still have the team, and have a high character player who has shown incredible improvement coming into carry. It might be a disaster, but the improvement of all players who get meaningful game time in our system (including Api who was a benchie/reserve grader when he got here) gives me confidence we will cover and the SOO halves, great link man, robotic back five and tough as nails pack will have us at or near the top next year.

Api wasn't a benchie/reserve grader when he came here. He was a first grader underutilised by Des. The second time in his coaching career Des has stuffed up his hookers. Api always showed glimpses of talent.
He had a few injuries and there was concerns he wouldn't be a 80 minute player when we signed him on here.
He got in our system and proved that wrong and fulfilled his talent.

Garner is another I am keen to see how he goes here. He won't be a Kikau replacement but he will be better than his Tigers output at the moment.
I am not enthusiastic about a Kenny/Luke combination next year. It is a massive downgrade.
I am willing to give them time next year to see how it works. With new assistant coaches coming in. The attack will need to change. Just as long as it is not a step backwards like we had under Katoa\Egan.

 

[Hooked]

With Api going I'm concerned like most on here about starting with Luke / Kenny, happy enough to have Soni as our number 2 hooker but Kenny doesnt impress me as a hooker, maybe as an interchange 2nd rower, I think as the Tigers are letting go of Liddel I think we should maybe make him an offer

I don't think Liddel is much better than we have. That Simpkins hooker they have was highly rated.

 

[ColdWetPanther]

Api wasn't a benchie/reserve grader when he came here. He was a first grader underutilised by Des. The second time in his coaching career Des has stuffed up his hookers. Api always showed glimpses of talent.
He had a few injuries and there was concerns he wouldn't be a 80 minute player when we signed him on here.
He got in our system and proved that wrong and fulfilled his talent.

Garner is another I am keen to see how he goes here. He won't be a Kikau replacement but he will be better than his Tigers output at the moment.
I am not enthusiastic about a Kenny/Luke combination next year. It is a massive downgrade.
I am willing to give them time next year to see how it works. With new assistant coaches coming in. The attack will need to change. Just as long as it is not a step backwards like we had under Katoa\Egan.

He started every game for Manly is ‘19, so not exactly under-utilised, but Des didn’t think he was good enough and he had been told that he was going to play second fiddle to the young kid the year after. Des got it wrong, but was that talent identification or coaching? I would suggest it is the latter; despite Api showing some talent (inconsistently) there were only two real suitors for him when he left Manly (us and Dogs) and many judges (including in here) ranked our spine with Api included one of the worst in the league (NRL com had us worst).

I’m really looking forward to seeing Spencer and Soni playing together in the minutes before half time. Of course, going to enjoy a final series where we are both No 1 and defending premiers first…

 

[Bob]

I don't think Liddel is much better than we have. That Simpkins hooker they have was highly rated.

I’d love to get Simpkins but don’t see the tigers letting him go, on Liddel his tackle effectiveness is around 94% and he can do something Kenny can’t do and that is pass off the ground

 

[Black Magik]

I’m sure Manly are regretting letting API go more than we will.

 

[Aliceinwonderland]

He started every game for Manly is ‘19, so not exactly under-utilised, but Des didn’t think he was good enough and he had been told that he was going to play second fiddle to the young kid the year after. Des got it wrong, but was that talent identification or coaching? I would suggest it is the latter; despite Api showing some talent (inconsistently) there were only two real suitors for him when he left Manly (us and Dogs) and many judges (including in here) ranked our spine with Api included one of the worst in the league (NRL com had us worst).

I’m really looking forward to seeing Spencer and Soni playing together in the minutes before half time. Of course, going to enjoy a final series where we are both No 1 and defending premiers first…

Api was not seen as an 80 hooker when he first came back to Penrith.

It also will be fascinating to see how Api fares without the Penrith team structure.

Will he still shine within the W/T system.

I have faith (as I've previously stated) in the combination of Kenny and then Luke comming in off the bench.

I believe it will work well.

 

[Smug Panther]

Api was not seen as an 80 hooker when he first came back to Penrith.

It also will be fascinating to see how Api fares without the Penrith team structure.

Will he still shine within the W/T system.

I have faith (as I've previously stated) in the combination of Kenny and then Luke comming in off the bench.

I believe it will work well.

Why do you believe so ? Kenny certainly hasn't shown the ability to create anything

 

[Whino]

He started every game for Manly is ‘19, so not exactly under-utilised, but Des didn’t think he was good enough and he had been told that he was going to play second fiddle to the young kid the year after. Des got it wrong, but was that talent identification or coaching? I would suggest it is the latter; despite Api showing some talent (inconsistently) there were only two real suitors for him when he left Manly (us and Dogs) and many judges (including in here) ranked our spine with Api included one of the worst in the league (NRL com had us worst).

I’m really looking forward to seeing Spencer and Soni playing together in the minutes before half time. Of course, going to enjoy a final series where we are both No 1 and defending premiers first…

I would say he was under-utilised. He proved here there was an 80 minute player ready to come out with the right coaching and fitness.

Des didn't rate Ennis either. He thought Liacha would turn out to be the better option long-term. Des doesn't get hookers right.

Most on here were actually happy we got Api. Me included.

Rumoured and Confirmed signings - Part 4

The last post in that thread is over 2 years ago. That's correct. It is the opinion of the manly fans at ( or just after) the time we released him. Iirc, Segs was still looking good and he (Api) was released as we didn't have room for him to play. The time is very relevant as he was judges on...

forums.leagueunlimited.com

What judges on here? The one's that wanted Cleary at hooker ; )

NRL.COM experts had egg on their face. They rarely get it right pre season though.
Like I said earlier. I am willing to give Kenny/Luke combination a go next year but I have concerns.
Api will be a big loss.

 

[ColdWetPanther]

I would say he was under-utilised. He proved here there was an 80 minute player ready to come out with the right coaching and fitness.

Des didn't rate Ennis either. He thought Liacha would turn out to be the better option long-term. Des doesn't get hookers right.

Most on here were actually happy we got Api. Me included.

Rumoured and Confirmed signings - Part 4

The last post in that thread is over 2 years ago. That's correct. It is the opinion of the manly fans at ( or just after) the time we released him. Iirc, Segs was still looking good and he (Api) was released as we didn't have room for him to play. The time is very relevant as he was judges on...

forums.leagueunlimited.com

What judges on here? The one's that wanted Cleary at hooker ; )

NRL.COM experts had egg on their face. They rarely get it right pre season though.
Like I said earlier. I am willing to give Kenny/Luke combination a go next year but I have concerns.

All fair points. I am not suggesting that Des got it right, but he didn’t get the best out of Api; I think we can all agree on that.

 

[Blade23]

I’m sure Manly are regretting letting API go more than we will.

Even got them to pay freight

 

[Aliceinwonderland]

Why do you believe so ? Kenny certainly hasn't shown the ability to create anything

I'm not expecting Kenny to create, as much as take the heat off early in the match with his hard hitting defence.

His service from dummy half is quite good also.

I'm expecting Luke to come on after about 20-25 mins against tiring forwards to create.

 

[Blade23]

Parra?

Tigers.