Russel Packer. Did we dodge a bullet?

[muzby]

If AFB assualted a male , is it the same punishement or not

Completely different circumstance, and even then it depends on the male.

Male on male violence is wrong, but in general men have more of an ability to defend themselves, however there are instances where this may not be the case - disabilities, elderly, coward punches, the list can be endless.

I have no time for any male who assaults a female, nor do I have any time for someone who abuses children.

 

[AyiosYiorgos]

The issue is when you have 16 clubs looking out for themselves you will get different outcomes depending on the calibre of player involved, either the NRL takes ownership of all issues and hands out the same punishemnt whether the player is Cameron Smith or Jacob Liddle or every player gets a 2nd chance at existing club to be rehabilitated...
Classic example is Jack Wighton belted 3-4 guys, Canberra said they were not going to sack him, as in the past they did and players ended up at other clubs all the effort Canberra had put into the players and other clubs were benefiting now...

 

[muzby]

The issue is when you have 16 clubs looking out for themselves you will get different outcomes depending on the calibre of player involved, either the NRL takes ownership of all issues and hands out the same punishemnt whether the player is Cameron Smith or Jacob Liddle or every player gets a 2nd chance at existing club to be rehabilitated...
Classic example is Jack Wighton belted 3-4 guys, Canberra said they were not going to sack him, as in the past they did and players ended up at other clubs all the effort Canberra had put into the players and other clubs were benefiting now...

The issue comes down to the NRL allowing a player contract to be registered.

They need a thorough overhaul so that they can put in place guidelines as to when a player can be re-registered after an offence.

Their no-fault stand down rule is a good start, but that’s at the extreme end, being 11 year minimum for the charges..

There needs to be a uniform player guideline for the matter with consistent consequences.

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

So.. just to be clear you are stating that 1 domestic violence conviction is better than multiple missing training or drinking sessions? Yes?

For Dane Nielsen, let me spell it out for you - he was also a dragons player (so one of ours) who was charged with assaulting a woman..

He suffered the same fate as AFB (and it was around the same time)..

Pretty sure it was his first charge too..

Why aren’t you advocating that we should have stood by him too?

Let me spell it out for you because you read what you want to read and you argue for the sake of arguing.
1. You cannot compare Nielsen case in any way shape or form with the AFB case.
AFB was a 19 year old who came through our junior ranks. That alone sets his case apart from DN.
He was also 19 years of age when he transgressed and had only ever played for STI.
DN on the other hand was a 30 year old who had played for many clubs and was a SOO representatives.
The clubs expectations for DN should be different than that of a local junior.
Can you really compare the maturity and judgement of an experienced first grader and state representative with a 19 year old?
Is this seeping through?
AFB was still at an age where he could have been set on the right path. He admitted what he did, was genuinely remorseful and, history shows, that he straightened his life out and became the best he could be as a player.
He is still with his partner and has settled into being a good Family man.
Unfortunately, all that upside didn't happen on our watch because we were too quick to turf him.
2. Misdemeanors vs convictions.
This is where you either don't understand what I am saying or you just want to be argumentative.
I suspect it's the latter.
I am not aligning Dugan's misdemeanors with convictions for domestic violence.
I will let you do that.
What I am trying to convey is that Dugan, although not criminally convicted, transgressed over and over and over again at Canberra (18 times to be exact). Also did so with us.
Yet we were prepared to oversee all that and spend time and money + a big fat contract helping him to get his life back in order and become a valuable member of our roster.

I contend that the club made a judgement call on AFB and did not show the same support and understanding that they have shown to other players. In this case, and in my opinion, they made a mistake.

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

Muzby
Nobody is stating that one charge is greater or less than another charge people are simply talking about rehabilitation within the NRL system. You keep trying to make that link without looking at the significant fact that regardless of the actions the players remain within the NRL system.
So let's go through a few points
Nielsen came to the club after we through him a lifeline. He had already been at the centre of issues at Souths turning up to training drunk etc so he had form of bad behaviour and it was clearly stated that his behaviour at Cronulla breached his contract. So Nielsen had form of poor / bad behaviour prior to coming to our club. His contract was written is such a way as to not condone any further breaches so not surprising that he was sacked as you have to ask how many chances can he be afforded and he ignored the warning in his contract.
It should be noted that Nielsen, AFB, Garvey, Jorge Tafua (Manly) all had incidents around the same time and the NRL were trying to hang tough due to bad publicity. Not sure when the Packer assault happened?
Garvey was stood down and reinstated to the club after receiving 300 hours of community service for his assault charge. If you know anything about the law, 300 hours of community work is about the absolute limit before custodial sentences. So the club afforded him the opportunity to rehabilitate.
Packer again had form of bad behaviour let alone his custodial sentence before coming to the club. The club fought a long and costly battle in an effort to get his contract registered and in the meanwhile he played ISP. To his great credit CP's behaviour was exemplary in his time at the club.
Dugan had several issues prior coming to the club and of course had some other minor issues during his time and was allowed to leave of his own volition.
AFB to the best of my knowledge had no priors and after pleading guilty was given a suspended sentence and a $1,000 fine and dismissed from the club. Not afforded any opportunity to remain within the clubs system.
It would appear to some that AFB was not given the same opportunity as others and it beggars the question why are some players supported by our club but not so in his case.
You offered previously that at 19 he knows right from wrong well does that not apply to all the others we have helped?
What AFB did was clearly wrong but we could have stood him down awaiting the outcome of his trial and then looked at implementing a plan to rehabilitate a young man (somebody else clearly did so) but we didn't do that instead we immediately tore up his contract. i
In old articles about most of the above it talks about behaviour that is in breach of contracts, well JDB is facing the most serious of charges of anyone and such behaviour would clearly constitute a breach of contract, yet JDB remains in the system, remains at training and the only thing that the club has to hang its hat on is JDB's word re his innocence whilst the DPP has a case strong enough to go to court.
Why is the club not standing JDB down or ripping up his contract?
A good question and IMO the club shows its true colours in that it was easy to dispense with the contracts of a 19 year old kid and a 30 year old clunker and cast them out in an effort to support the NRL during troubled times but argue against the NRL and stand steadfastly behind marquis players such as Packer, Dugan & JDB as they were more worthwhile assets.
You continue to falsely accuse me of saying that my support of Dennis's argument re AFB is based on AFB's ability to play (not realised at the time of the incident) but I suggest that there is clear evidence that the club did support rep players in a manner they could have afforded AFB but clearly they chose not to do so.

Succinctly presented in a logical way that I failed to do.
Thank you!

 

[Belta]

My 2 cents worth.

I think most of the posts in this thread and other threads about past and current players is more about looking for an opportunity to put the club down. The AFB scenario, selecting Hunt @ 9 for SOO, the multiple threads about Garrick etc are all aimed at trying to suggest that the club made the wrong decision and should be outed for doing so. In the AFB case it appears to have nothing to do with the moral perspective or what is actually right or wrong, but about trying to score points by raising another perceived failing by the club. It boils down to a witch hunt.

With regards to the AFB scenario, if we take the actual indiscretions out of the discussion, the one thing that separates this from Dugan and Packer is that AFB was already on a contract with the club.

Assumption 1:

When he was arrested and charged, the club would have (as they have done with JDB) worked with him to understand the actual scenario (actually supported by the fact that he was stood down when it happened but terminated 6 months later). AFB ended up pleading guilty and I assume the club knew this would be the case before the court case. This is a key difference between JDB and AFB (love the acronyms).

Assumption 2:

Contractually there would have been some sort of clause detailing consequences for off field behaviour – and this is most likely ranked against severity. Am assuming that where guilt is determined, then this would result in termination of the players contract (again, based on severity). This is the difference between Dugan and Packer – neither were on a contract with the club when their off-field indiscretions occurred so the responsibility is not with the club to act on the players previous actions.

I believe the whole thing comes down to contractual obligation. Keeping AFB on board after being found guilty of a serious crime potentially sets a dangerous precedent for other players and a feeling that the club turns a blind eye to this sort of behaviour with a trivial punishment. I believe the club did the right thing in this instance. I also understand based on media reports of other problem players that the NRL plays a role in the decision-making process as to whether to terminate them or to give them another chance. I take it that some decision making is taken out of the clubs hands.

Finally, the definition of ‘junior’ needs to be defined because AFB played with the Rabbits and the Eels prior to joining the Dragons. We didn’t nurture him through the ranks from junior clubs in the region, we bought him in at a later date. Juniors to me are those that are identified and brought through from within the region. Not those that are brought in at NYC level (or equivalent), one or 2 steps before first grade. Irrespective, just because he is or isn’t a junior should not be a determining factor in any decision. Especially one of this magnitude.

Great post.

Also I’m encouraged to hear SGI took a tough stance. The narrative of this domestic violence incident Is very disturbing and I’d say his age and a good lawyer (and a fair degree of luck) was the only reason he escaped jail time for such heinous crime. Being young, intoxicated or brought up in a violent family is more and more being ignored as justification to commit an act like kicking a pregnant women. Thank god times are changing. As I type this it reminds me only a few days ago a old retired copper was telling me they’d go to assault matters and tell the women well if you didn’t have such a smart mouth you wouldn’t of been hit. True story.

 

[muzby]

Let me spell it out for you because you read what you want to read and you argue for the sake of arguing.
1. You cannot compare Nielsen case in any way shape or form with the AFB case.
AFB was a 19 year old who came through our junior ranks. That alone sets his case apart from DN.
He was also 19 years of age when he transgressed and had only ever played for STI.
DN on the other hand was a 30 year old who had played for many clubs and was a SOO representatives.
The clubs expectations for DN should be different than that of a local junior.
Can you really compare the maturity and judgement of an experienced first grader and state representative with a 19 year old?
Is this seeping through?
AFB was still at an age where he could have been set on the right path. He admitted what he did, was genuinely remorseful and, history shows, that he straightened his life out and became the best he could be as a player.
He is still with his partner and has settled into being a good Family man.
Unfortunately, all that upside didn't happen on our watch because we were too quick to turf him.
2. Misdemeanors vs convictions.
This is where you either don't understand what I am saying or you just want to be argumentative.
I suspect it's the latter.
I am not aligning Dugan's misdemeanors with convictions for domestic violence.
I will let you do that.
What I am trying to convey is that Dugan, although not criminally convicted, transgressed over and over and over again at Canberra (18 times to be exact). Also did so with us.
Yet we were prepared to oversee all that and spend time and money + a big fat contract helping him to get his life back in order and become a valuable member of our roster.

I contend that the club made a judgement call on AFB and did not show the same support and understanding that they have shown to other players. In this case, and in my opinion, they made a mistake.

You do realise that shouting doesn't help get a message across when it's incorrect...

But hey, I've got some time to spare so let's help continue to educate you..

1. You cannot compare Nielsen case in any way shape or form with the AFB case.

It makes more sense to compare Fonua-Blake to Nielsen than you did comparing Fonua-Blake to Dugan.

Both AFB and Nielsen were contracted dragons players who assaulted women.

He was also 19 years of age when he transgressed and had only ever played for STI.
DN on the other hand was a 30 year old who had played for many clubs and was a SOO representatives.

Okay, so according to you we've established that 19 years of age is okay to assault women, but 30 isn't..

What age would you consider it not okay? Is it 20? 25? Help us all out here.

And so it's okay for someone who's only played for one club to assault a woman, but not a someone who's played for many clubs.

So what is the correct number of clubs? 2? 3?

Need I remind you that AFB had played for other junior clubs before ours, but hey, why let facts get in the way this far down the track..

I am not aligning Dugan's misdemeanors with convictions for domestic violence.
I will let you do that.

Okay.. I'll do that by quoting this guy:

What I don't understand is that we were prepared to go out on a limb for Packer and we also did the same for Dugan and yet we didn't do the same for Fonua Blake.
If we are so big on rehabilitating bad boys at least pick the right ones.

 

[muzby]

Succinctly presented in a logical way that I failed to do.
Thank you!

that may be the first time in history i've seen an 1,800 word internet forum post labelled as "succinct"...

 

[Old Timer]

that may be the first time in history i've seen an 1,800 word internet forum post labelled as "succinct"...

You truly are a goose of the 1st order.
You are unrelenting in respect of AFB being able to redeem himself.
Why don't you come clean and tell us what it is that makes you so uncompromising and anti assisting a 19 year old who obviously f**ked up?

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

You do realise that shouting doesn't help get a message across when it's incorrect...

But hey, I've got some time to spare so let's help continue to educate you..


It makes more sense to compare Fonua-Blake to Nielsen than you did comparing Fonua-Blake to Dugan.

Both AFB and Nielsen were contracted dragons players who assaulted women.



Okay, so according to you we've established that 19 years of age is okay to assault women, but 30 isn't..

What age would you consider it not okay? Is it 20? 25? Help us all out here.

And so it's okay for someone who's only played for one club to assault a woman, but not a someone who's played for many clubs.

So what is the correct number of clubs? 2? 3?

Need I remind you that AFB had played for other junior clubs before ours, but hey, why let facts get in the way this far down the track..





Okay.. I'll do that by quoting this guy:

Who's shouting?
You on the other hand are just grandstanding.
Idiotic logic to some pretty straight forward arguments.
If you want to ignore the essence of the debate and micro dissect to suit yourself, then it ceases to become a debate.

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

that may be the first time in history i've seen an 1,800 word internet forum post labelled as "succinct"...

It was only 1800 words because OT was responding to your long winded diatribe.
His responses to your numerous arguments were succinct and, unlike yours, underwritten by knowledge and logic..
So once again, if you want to keep misinterpreting these posts to suit your self, go ahead.
You are starting to look really foolish.

 

[Como Connection]

Hello from afar in Devon England, is Packer coming or not!
CC

 

[muzby]

You truly are a goose of the 1st order.
You are unrelenting in respect of AFB being able to redeem himself.
Why don't you come clean and tell us what it is that makes you so uncompromising and anti assisting a 19 year old who obviously f**ked up?

It’s not the clubs role to do that, and it’s a good thing for us and society that they don’t stand behind someone who beats up women.

It’s the criminal justice system’s job to do that.

How do you not get this?

Of course I’ll put the same question to you that I put to Dennis - if you believe thar 19 is an acceptable age to do what he did, at what age does it not become acceptable?

 

[muzby]

Who's shouting?
You on the other hand are just grandstanding.
Idiotic logic to some pretty straight forward arguments.
If you want to ignore the essence of the debate and micro dissect to suit yourself, then it ceases to become a debate.

Dennis, you realise you simply bitching about this whole situation because there is a good player running around for another team which we could use in our club at the moment.

You’re putting your wish for a good result in a simple ball sport ahead of a genuine problem in society that needs to be fixed..

And that’s pretty sad..

 

[Carlton]

I'm not sure about this but I thought that AFB came to us from souths and parra after he had been cut because of indiscretions at these clubs.

He isn't a local junior but my recollection was he was a talented junior with some big issues who already had had a couple of chances.

 

[possm]

I'd be n favour of taking AFB back tomorrow if we could. Unfortunately I can't see any good reason why he would want to return to our basket case of a Club with a clueless head coach.

 

[Old Timer]

It’s not the clubs role to do that, and it’s a good thing for us and society that they don’t stand behind someone who beats up women.

It’s the criminal justice system’s job to do that.

How do you not get this?

Of course I’ll put the same question to you that I put to Dennis - if you believe thar 19 is an acceptable age to do what he did, at what age does it not become acceptable?

Your arrogance is astonishing.
You keep making suppositions as to what people think or believe about the crime and somehow draw the dumb arse conclusion that we think it is acceptable at 19 but not acceptable at an older age.
How f**king dare you muddy the waters and smear us with such stupidity.
You cast AFB onto the scrap heap of humanity offering no guidance and support and all the while saying it is solely the criminal justice systems job to rehabilitate him as I said before NIMBY actions.
Well the criminal justice systems actions were to give him a $1,000 fine and a suspended sentence and some counselling well big f**king deal and somehow you think that is real rehabilitation what a joke you really are muzby
His partner needed people he know her to stand up for her and make sure that a young man who mad a heinous mistake was given education and guidance to ensure he never made the same mistake again.
We had an opportunity to participate in that for AFB and his family and we relinquished it and meanwhile the NRL said it was ok for him to keep playing.
You miss the very salient point that his partner and family who are still with him today would have been the true recipients of any supportive actions we had taken to help AFB get his life in order.
But no you can’t see that and you just keep trying to link it to football ability
You are too stupid to try and suppose what I think so don’t bother trying to paint me into a corner with your moralistic brush.

 

[muzby]

Your arrogance is astonishing.
You keep making suppositions as to what people think or believe about the crime and somehow draw the dumb arse conclusion that we think it is acceptable at 19 but not acceptable at an older age.
How f**king dare you muddy the waters and smear us with such stupidity.
You cast AFB onto the scrap heap of humanity offering no guidance and support and all the while saying it is solely the criminal justice systems job to rehabilitate him as I said before NIMBY actions.
Well the criminal justice systems actions were to give him a $1,000 fine and a suspended sentence and some counselling well big f**king deal and somehow you think that is real rehabilitation what a joke you really are muzby
His partner needed people he know her to stand up for her and make sure that a young man who mad a heinous mistake was given education and guidance to ensure he never made the same mistake again.
We had an opportunity to participate in that for AFB and his family and we relinquished it and meanwhile the NRL said it was ok for him to keep playing.
You miss the very salient point that his partner and family who are still with him today would have been the true recipients of any supportive actions we had taken to help AFB get his life in order.
But no you can’t see that and you just keep trying to link it to football ability
You are too stupid to try and suppose what I think so don’t bother trying to paint me into a corner with your moralistic brush.

I’d say the fact he admitted that genuinely facing jail time was enough to turn his life around says that the justice system did it’s job.. no?

But I’m still waiting for you to just answer the question..

You say 19 is an age that deserves a second chance from the club and as you put it “education and guidance” (which I may add is exactly what the court imposed counselling was, so not sure why you quash it there, but then say we should be doing exactly the same thing.. rather odd..)

But the question is.. In your opinion what age should someone be old enough to know better & not do it in the first place?

Cause my answer to that question is that 19 is easily old enough..

 

[muzby]

I'd be n favour of taking AFB back tomorrow if we could.

Of course you would..

Whilst we’re at it we could also get Ben Barba to play fullback and maybe even get Greg Bird with the cap dispensation we just received..

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

Dennis, you realise you simply bitching about this whole situation because there is a good player running around for another team which we could use in our club at the moment.

You’re putting your wish for a good result in a simple ball sport ahead of a genuine problem in society that needs to be fixed..

And that’s pretty sad..

Nonsense.