Smith v Hagan - who is Mr Popular?

[salivor]

hahahaha at this thread and Newcastle fans

4th last year

71 point defeats this year bahahaaha

Smith was the 4th or 5th choice coach, and from the countless thrashings it is easy to see why lol


Hagan was chosen to coach SOO from people who have more RL knowledge then any Newcastle supporter on this board.

And as fro Todd Lowrie? he has been one of Parra's best in First Division and close to call in firsts, and whilst on the subject Hagan has hardly shown any favourtism towards him, only 2 games he's played in firsts.

The difference at Newcastle is that last year Andrew Johns played nearly every game while this year he only played 3. Go look at Hagans record without Johns in that team, it's bloody poor. He even coached that side to a spoon with Johns playing half the season, something Smith looks like at least avoiding.

As for his SOO record, 2 series losses wasn't it? Yeah great stuff, now he's being shown up by Mal Meninga and we all know how great Mal's club coaching record is.

 

[badav]

Hagan was chosen to coach SOO from people who have more RL knowledge then any Newcastle supporter on this board.

Yeah and?? He failed miserably.

 

[Ron Jeremy]

The difference at Newcastle is that last year Andrew Johns played nearly every game while this year he only played 3. Go look at Hagans record without Johns in that team, it's bloody poor. He even coached that side to a spoon with Johns playing half the season, something Smith looks like at least avoiding.

As for his SOO record, 2 series losses wasn't it? Yeah great stuff, now he's being shown up by Mal Meninga and we all know how great Mal's club coaching record is.

But Newcastle supporters said that Smith could still achieve results without Johns?

 

[voltron]

heheh
he got his first win of 2005 through SOO

 

[Ron Jeremy]

Yeah and?? He failed miserably.

All games went to the third match, and didn't Hagan introduce the likes of Thurston to Origin?

 

[Ron Jeremy]

heheh
he got his first win of 2005 through SOO

And Newcastle have doen the opposite this year :lol:

2005 Newcastle had worse injury problems, as well as lack of training facilities which Hagan & Sargent spoke up about.

 

[salivor]

But Newcastle supporters said that Smith could still achieve results without Johns?

I'm sure they did. The reality is that Smith has been left with a side that Hagan failed to build rather he sat back and relied on Johns to put the wins on the board. They've had a terrible squad for years now propped up by Johns and a couple of decent players in Buderus and Simpson below that, the rest I wouldn't feed. Smith can only work with the squad this year that he's inherited, judge him on what he produces in the next few years when he gets the squad he wants.

All games went to the third match, and didn't Hagan introduce the likes of Thurston to Origin?

His record is still 2 wins, 4 losses and 2 series losses, not flash. Also the Queensland selection panel introduced Thurston to SOO.

 

[voltron]

yeah but we had a andrew johns who was on fire at the end of the year
no such player this year
didnt we use 35 players in 2005
and 37 this year?
and the man who made the 'one man' team is gone for the entire season this year
instead of the first third in 2005.......

 

[salivor]

And Newcastle have doen the opposite this year :lol:

2005 Newcastle had worse injury problems, as well as lack of training facilities which Hagan & Sargent spoke up about.

He spoke up about it in 2005? He'd been in the job since 2001 and it took 4 years to speak up about something which as head coach he has to take some responsibility for?

 

[eels_fan_01]

The way Knights are playing they are going to be wooden spooners and Eels are the top 8 so who gives a sh*t whos more popular.

 

[Ron Jeremy]

I'm sure they did. The reality is that Smith has been left with a side that Hagan failed to build rather he sat back and relied on Johns to put the wins on the board. They've had a terrible squad for years now propped up by Johns and a couple of decent players in Buderus and Simpson below that, the rest I wouldn't feed. Smith can only work with the squad this year that he's inherited, judge him on what he produces in the next few years when he gets the squad he wants.



His record is still 2 wins, 4 losses and 2 series losses, not flash. Also the Queensland selection panel introduced Thurston to SOO.

Thats what happens when Johns, Burderus, Simpson, Gidleys, Hughes etc are resigned. Newcastle had no choice but to sign these players, and was Hagan incharge of recruitment?

How have Brisbane gone without Lockyer?

:lol: Offcourse, then the results are due to the selection panel then hey? lol

 

[Ron Jeremy]

yeah but we had a andrew johns who was on fire at the end of the year
no such player this year
didnt we use 35 players in 2005
and 37 this year?
and the man who made the 'one man' team is gone for the entire season this year
instead of the first third in 2005.......

Players used this year means nothing, Kirk is perfectly healthy at the moment but not playing anywhere, and also the likes of Taia, Vuna....didn't they join mid season?

 

[salivor]

Thats what happens when Johns, Burderus, Simpson, Gidleys, Hughes etc are resigned. Newcastle had no choice but to sign these players, and was Hagan incharge of recruitment?

How have Brisbane gone without Lockyer?

:lol: Offcourse, then the results are due to the selection panel then hey? lol

You're not making much sense Ron.

Of course Hagan had a part in recruitment, every coach in the NRL does. Some are more involved than others e.g. Bennett negotiating with players himself, but every coach has a say in who they do and don't want at their club. Hagan made no real attempt to build a team that was going to be competitive without Johns and it's not surprising in the least that the bottom has fallen out now that Johns has hung up his boots. I can't see how the Knights would be doing any better under Hagan this year considering his previous track record, at least Smith is rebuilding for the future, I have a feeling Hagan would be persisting with trying to polish a turd.

How have Brisbane gone without Lockyer? What are you inferring Ron? That Bennett is no better than Hagan that he can't get wins on the board without his star? Is that the point you're trying to make?

No because Origin football is more than what team you have on paper. It is about the passion a coach can bring out him his team and the tactics he uses, Hagan was a flop, his record speaks for itself.

 

[Ron Jeremy]

You're not making much sense Ron.

Of course Hagan had a part in recruitment, every coach in the NRL does. Some are more involved than others e.g. Bennett negotiating with players himself, but every coach has a say in who they do and don't want at their club. Hagan made no real attempt to build a team that was going to be competitive without Johns and it's not surprising in the least that the bottom has fallen out now that Johns has hung up his boots. I can't see how the Knights would be doing any better under Hagan this year considering his previous track record, at least Smith is rebuilding for the future, I have a feeling Hagan would be persisting with trying to polish a turd.

How have Brisbane gone without Lockyer? What are you inferring Ron? That Bennett is no better than Hagan that he can't get wins on the board without his star? Is that the point you're trying to make?

No because Origin football is more than what team you have on paper. It is about the passion a coach can bring out him his team and the tactics he uses, Hagan was a flop, his record speaks for itself.

Sorry your argument has very little, yes Hagan did! he was the person responsible for blooding Mullen and he stated many times he would be the maqn to lead the Knights after Johns.

Brisbane have gone sh*t without Lockyer, see what happens when a play maker is injured? or what about Parramatta in 91-92?

And so buy your rationale Jack Gibson is a sh*thouse coach also? after all how did the Gibson led Origin teams go in the last 80's:lol:

Sorry mate:lol:

 

[The Camden Leisure Pirate]

Sorry your argument has very little, yes Hagan did! he was the person responsible for blooding Mullen and he stated many times he would be the maqn to lead the Knights after Johns.

That is total BS Ron.

Hags continually chose Kurt Gidley to partner Joey in the halves, with poor results.

Mullen was only chosen when we had injuries.

 

[salivor]

Sorry your argument has very little, yes Hagan did! he was the person responsible for blooding Mullen and he stated many times he would be the maqn to lead the Knights after Johns.

Brisbane have gone sh*t without Lockyer, see what happens when a play maker is injured? or what about Parramatta in 91-92?

And so buy your rationale Jack Gibson is a sh*thouse coach also? after all how did the Gibson led Origin teams go in the last 80's:lol:

Sorry mate:lol:

So your point was to prove that Hagan did having something to do with recruitment at the Knights? Are you trying to win or lose this debate? So we both agree that Hagan had something to do with recruitment at the Knights, so it reflect too well on Hagan that Smith is now having to clean half the squad out that Hagan had built as they're clearly not up to first grade standard. You even mention Mullen, he couldn't even get that part right as Walsh looks the better of the 2.

Brisbane have faced the teams finishing first second and third with 10 players sitting on the sidelines and not lost to any of those sides by 13+. Why? Because they've built up a squad that may have a very dominant player but still has enough talent to compete without him. At Newcastle under Hagan it was a case of Johns sitting in the penthouse and the rest huddling in the basement.

By my rationale? I think you're forgetting who brought Hagan's SOO coaching into this debate. It was you Ron, trying to use it as some great example that it somehow made him a better coach. His record is rubbish, end of story.

 

[Misty Bee]

Hagan in Origin was also up against a side that contained a bloke called Andrew Johns.

So, the Knights couldn't win without Joey. And Hagans Maroons couldn't win against Joey. Joey must be some player, ay!

Then how come Brian Smith regularly LOST with Joey in a COuntry jumper????

Another point in support of Hagan is that if winning Origin determines who the great coaches are, then the best coach in the games history would be Wayne Pearce.

Hagan's injury crisis of 05 ment that he blooded heaps of new talent from the juniors, as Smith has this year. There is, however, one big difference. Recall the night in 05 that Parra put 50 on Newy's PL side - the night one fan and his VB jumped the fence and tried to tackle Daniel Wagon. I recall that night the Knights side kept trying -Craig Smith was skipper I recall, despite the scoreline.

In comparison, on Sunday the Knights gave up.

Another way of looking at it: Consider the players (including those in the junior system that they failed to secure) that have left each club to go elsewhere rather than play under that coach, since 2001:

Under Hagan:
Tahu (twice)
Kennedy
M Gidley
Morris (twice)
Inglis
Morrison
Widders
Green
McKinnon

Under Smith:
Lyon
Buettner
I. Hindmarsh
Drew
Mogg
Hodgeson
Moodie
Richards
Falau
Dykes
J Cayless
Irvine
Newton
Woolnough
Perry
Stapleton
Tonga
Ryan
Graham
McFadden
Vaealiki
Solomona
Carney

Understand now?

 

[salivor]

Hagan in Origin was also up against a side that contained a bloke called Andrew Johns.

So, the Knights couldn't win without Joey. And Hagans Maroons couldn't win against Joey. Joey must be some player, ay!

Then how come Brian Smith regularly LOST with Joey in a COuntry jumper????

Another point in support of Hagan is that if winning Origin determines who the great coaches are, then the best coach in the games history would be Wayne Pearce.

I think you're forgetting that the point was brought up by Ron that Hagan being the Qld Origin coach was somehow a point in his favour over Smith. He failed in his 2 series and now we're making excuses why it doesn't matter? So if it doesn't matter, don't bring it up in the first place.

Hagan's injury crisis of 05 ment that he blooded heaps of new talent from the juniors, as Smith has this year. There is, however, one big difference. Recall the night in 05 that Parra put 50 on Newy's PL side - the night one fan and his VB jumped the fence and tried to tackle Daniel Wagon. I recall that night the Knights side kept trying -Craig Smith was skipper I recall, despite the scoreline.

In comparison, on Sunday the Knights gave up.

Another way of looking at it: Consider the players (including those in the junior system that they failed to secure) that have left each club to go elsewhere rather than play under that coach, since 2001:

Under Hagan:
Tahu (twice)
Kennedy
M Gidley
Morris (twice)
Inglis
Morrison
Widders
Green
McKinnon

Under Smith:
Lyon
Buettner
I. Hindmarsh
Drew
Mogg
Hodgeson
Moodie
Richards
Falau
Dykes
J Cayless
Irvine
Newton
Woolnough
Perry
Stapleton
Tonga
Ryan
Graham
McFadden
Vaealiki
Solomona
Carney

Understand now?

The difference is that Hagans blooding of talent was forced upon him by injury so there was never going to be a lack of morale or rebellion that went with that. Smith on the other hand has chosen to blood young players and cut others to benefit the club for the future. That's never an easy process, I'm not surprised there's been player unrest as senior players and fringe first graders see their culture of accepting mediocrity changing and their mates who were given a first class ride being shown the door. Judge Smith in the next few years when he builds the team he wants not the one he's inherited this year that he obviously doesn't and if he still fails at that point then he deserves all the critism he gets.

Also if Hagans list is a quality list. If you cut a bit of the crud i.e. the solid but nothing more first graders from Smith's list then they're not that far off each other.

 

[voltron]

didnt we loose anthony topou and greg bird under hagan as well?

 

[jamesgould]

Hagan in Origin was also up against a side that contained a bloke called Andrew Johns.

In 2005 Hagan faced Johns in origin for two games. The rest of his tenure (2004, first game 2005) he was up against the might of Finch, Timmins, Barrett and Kimmorley in the halves.

Then how come Brian Smith regularly LOST with Joey in a COuntry jumper????

He didn't, this only hapopened once - in 2003. This was also the year that Johns started the season in pretty poor form, and Phil Gould had the big blow-up with him about putting in more. I think he has said publicly that he wasn't enjoying his footy at the time, and Newcastle weren't travelling particularly well, either.