Smith v Hagan - who is Mr Popular?

[Misty Bee]

Salivor:
Response 1) As you stated, I didn't bring it up in the first place, but I'm merely comparing how both went in rep games with/against the one man team.

Response 2) Hasn't Smith also had a horrible injury year? I can judge Smith because we had him for 10 years. I remember the pain. BTW, Smith's list IS populated with first graders. Aren't we talking about a first grade coach? Hagan's list has 4 rep players, Smith's about 10.

Voltron - the list is from memory and therefore far from comprehensive

 

[Ron Jeremy]

http://forums.leagueunlimited.com/showthread.php?t=73528&page=4&highlight=kirk+Reynoldson

Stuart Kelly
Casey McGuire
Paul Gallen
Scott Geddes
Mark Meredith
Craig Hall
Steven Witt
Alex Chan
David Kidwell
Kirk Reynoldson
Clinton Schifcofske
Adam Mogg
Michael Hodgson
Ian Hindmarsh
Brad Drew
Scott Donald
Daniel Heckenberg
Nathan Hollingsworth
Kylie Lueluai
Jeff Robson
Stuart Webb
Chad Robinson
Jason Cayless
Mark Tookey
PJ Marsh
Danny Sullivan
Joel Clinton
Willie Tonga
Andrew Ryan
Brett Hodgson
Jason Moodie
Ben Galea
Michael Buettner
Pat Richards
Mitchell Sargent
Roy Friend
Joven Clarke
Jamie Russo
Kane Cleal
Steve Crouch
David McLean
Adrian Rainey
John Wilson
Heath Le'strange
Brett Ryan
Michael Meigan
Paul Green
Andrew McFadden
Dayne Neirinckx
Sika Teaupa
Willie Leyshon
Jarrod Dykes
Shayne Dunley
David Solomona
Colum Halpenny
Jason Smith
Jim Dymock
Dennis Moran
Troy Wozniak
Nathan Barnes
Scott Ella
Brett Sargent
Epa Navale
Craig Trindall
David Djukich
Loloa Milford
Nick Emmett
Daniel Irvine
Andrew Meads
Chad Halliday
Justin Morgan

 

[salivor]

Salivor:
Response 1) As you stated, I didn't bring it up in the first place, but I'm merely comparing how both went in rep games with/against the one man team.

Response 2) Hasn't Smith also had a horrible injury year? I can judge Smith because we had him for 10 years. I remember the pain. BTW, Smith's list IS populated with first graders. Aren't we talking about a first grade coach? Hagan's list has 4 rep players, Smith's about 10.

Voltron - the list is from memory and therefore far from comprehensive

On the list, I'm talking about the calibre of player. There are some big names on Hagans list. While on the other hand if the likes of Buettner (in the twighlight not peak of his career), Drew, Irvine, Woolnough and Newtown to name a few didn't want to be coached by the head coach of my club then it wouldn't bother me.

How much pain really was there for Parramatta? He started in what 1997? Before then Parramatta hadn't made the finals for 10 years. Under Smith (we'll exclude 2006) they made 7 finals series, a grand final, 2 minor premierships and made grand final qualifiers on 4 occaisons. Same thing at St George, he took a side that hadn't made the finals in a while and a year later had them play in successive Grand Finals.

The problem with Smith is that he can't get a side across the final hurdle. I'm no fan of his but he does have a very good record at building sides. If Newcastle were wise they'd give him a couple of years to build up a side and then bring in a coach that can finish the job.

 

[Ron Jeremy]

On the list, I'm talking about the calibre of player. There are some big names on Hagans list. While on the other hand if the likes of Buettner (in the twighlight not peak of his career), Drew, Irvine, Woolnough and Newtown to name a few didn't want to be coached by the head coach of my club then it wouldn't bother me.

How much pain really was there for Parramatta? He started in what 1997? Before then Parramatta hadn't made the finals for 10 years. Under Smith (we'll exclude 2006) they made 7 finals series, a grand final, 2 minor premierships and made grand final qualifiers on 4 occaisons. Same thing at St George, he took a side that hadn't made the finals in a while and a year later had them play in successive Grand Finals.

The problem with Smith is that he can't get a side across the final hurdle. I'm no fan of his but he does have a very good record at building sides. If Newcastle were wise they'd give him a couple of years to build up a side and then bring in a coach that can finish the job.

Attribute much of that to the Superleague war. Parramatta before Smith came had already Purchased the Cantebury four, Aaron Raper, Johnston, Nathan Barnes etc Smith basically came in and finished the job with purcahsing John Simon, Jason Bell.

And with St George, they had a great nuclerus as well before Smith joined, why not bring Illawarra while we're at it:lol:

 

[salivor]

Attribute much of that to the Superleague war. Parramatta before Smith came had already Purchased the Cantebury four, Aaron Raper, Johnston, Nathan Barnes etc Smith basically came in and finished the job with purcahsing John Simon, Jason Bell.

And with St George, they had a great nuclerus as well before Smith joined, why not bring Illawarra while we're at it:lol:

Yes and how many of those players were left by the time we saw the great Parramatta side of 2001? I seem to remember a very young Eels side giving Brisbane a run for their money in the Grand Final qualifier of 2000, he rebuilt pretty well.

 

[salivor]

BTW Ron, a similar argument has been used for Hagan and his first year premiership that he had a ready made side to take over. What doesn't look so good for Hagan is he spent the next 5 years doing nothing with that squad.

To be honest the whole Hagan v Smith thing is amusing, kind of like arguing who's the better of Jason Bulgerelli and Paul Carrige. It's the kind of proposition you'd hope your own club is never faced with but if I was forced to take a pick of the 2 I'd take Smith.

 

[Ron Jeremy]

Yes and how many of those players were left by the time we saw the great Parramatta side of 2001? I seem to remember a very young Eels side giving Brisbane a run for their money in the Grand Final qualifier of 2000, he rebuilt pretty well.

Yes, credit that to our tremendous junior system. A freak bunch of juniors came through in late 90's early 2000, problem were any good coach would've capitalized on this, yet we lost pretty much all of them except for Hindy, Cayless, Burt thanks to Smith, thats the sad reality. It wasn't like we our cap was full or had massive injuries problems, we just deterioated and players leaving left right and centre. It wasn't untill 2005 that Brian decided to do something about it, and then by 2006 Smith left us second last on the later with a roster many would be envious of.

Brian did well to begin with, but went downhill very quickly, and hasn't recovered. The game in 2002 changed thanks to Ricky Stuart and rules to help stem the speed of the play the ball, Brian didn't recover.

 

[Ron Jeremy]

BTW Ron, a similar argument has been used for Hagan and his first year premiership that he had a ready made side to take over. What doesn't look so good for Hagan is he spent the next 5 years doing nothing with that squad.

To be honest the whole Hagan v Smith thing is amusing, kind of like arguing who's the better of Jason Bulgerelli and Paul Carrige. It's the kind of proposition you'd hope your own club is never faced with but if I was forced to take a pick of the 2 I'd take Smith.

That 5 years he was placed in a situation where he didn't have the funds, training resources and wasn't given complete control over signings and retentions. If you were to blame someone blame the Newy board, that were a heap of sh*t.

Hagan has a better raport with players, and doesn't have to buy a 100 players each year. Hagan has an emphasis on junior development which is very evident ( unlike Smith who blooded 3 players in 2 and a half years)

 

[Misty Bee]

Salivor - it all comes down to one thing. Hagan won a premiership. Smith, in twice the time, failed. If 01 wasn't there for the taking, it was '98 or '05. Or last season - we saw what Taylor could do.

 

[jamesgould]

Attribute much of that to the Superleague war. Parramatta before Smith came had already Purchased the Cantebury four, Aaron Raper, Johnston, Nathan Barnes etc Smith basically came in and finished the job with purcahsing John Simon, Jason Bell.

They still didn't even make the semis with all the first lot of players in 1996 though, did they? 13th of 20, in fact!

 

[salivor]

That 5 years he was placed in a situation where he didn't have the funds, training resources and wasn't given complete control over signings and retentions. If you were to blame someone blame the Newy board, that were a heap of sh*t.

Hagan has a better raport with players, and doesn't have to buy a 100 players each year. Hagan has an emphasis on junior development which is very evident ( unlike Smith who blooded 3 players in 2 and a half years)

Every coach has a say in signings and retentions, Hagan only has himself to blame for the pitiful squad he ended up with by the end of 2006. Same with the training situation, the issue only came up in 2005, he'd been at the club for 4 years by that point, why nothing from Hagan before that?

As for his focus on junior development, what great juniors are there at Newcastle now that debuted in Hagan's time? Carmont? Brown? Tighe? Tanner? Tighe? Give me a break, about the only 3 worth feeding are Gidley, Mullen and Patterson.

 

[Ron Jeremy]

They still didn't even make the semis with all the first lot of players in 1996 though, did they? 13th of 20, in fact!

Oh geez Ron was given won year with the squad:roll: and it would take a couple of years for such a turnaround in personal to gel. 1997 we only had 12 teams and achieved nothing:roll:


what the f**k

 

[Ron Jeremy]

Every coach has a say in signings and retentions, Hagan only has himself to blame for the pitiful squad he ended up with by the end of 2006. Same with the training situation, the issue only came up in 2005, he'd been at the club for 4 years by that point, why nothing from Hagan before that?

As for his focus on junior development, what great juniors are there at Newcastle now that debuted in Hagan's time? Carmont? Brown? Tighe? Tanner? Tighe? Give me a break, about the only 3 worth feeding are Gidley, Mullen and Patterson.

Rubbish! that same crap squad came 4th:lol: and the years before 2005 Newcastle would've made the GF if it weren't for injuries to Johns eg semis 2002, 2003...Newy were undeafeated in 2004 before he got injured, yet they still managed to win another 7 or 8 games without him.

 

[Stranger]

You put 2005 spoon of hagans down to injuries yet 2007 down to smith?

 

[salivor]

Rubbish! that same crap squad came 4th:lol: and the years before 2005 Newcastle would've made the GF if it weren't for injuries to Johns eg semis 2002, 2003...Newy were undeafeated in 2004 before he got injured, yet they still managed to win another 7 or 8 games without him.

Thanks for proving my point. That crap squad was propped up by Johns for years. When he wasn't there the bottom fell out and now that he's gone for good it's fallen out again. Hagan made no attempt to build a decent squad around him that could continue on without him.

 

[Misty Bee]

They still didn't even make the semis with all the first lot of players in 1996 though, did they? 13th of 20, in fact!

sh*t, JG, you got us there. Brian Smith is a better coach that Ronny Hilditch. Smith also won a third grade premiership with Souths about 20 years ago too. He also knew Billy Smith, and probably once had a beer with Mark Shulman. What a resume!!!!

Hagan, who won premierships as a player and a coach, obviously knows nothing.

 

[salivor]

Salivor - it all comes down to one thing. Hagan won a premiership. Smith, in twice the time, failed. If 01 wasn't there for the taking, it was '98 or '05. Or last season - we saw what Taylor could do.

Yes he did and he had the best player in the world in his side and a decent squad around him. For the next 5 years he built nothing on that. Now Parramatta in their current state have a very good squad but they don't look like a premiership winning squad right now to me, I don't see Hagan having the ability to lift them to that level.

 

[Ron Jeremy]

You put 2005 spoon of hagans down to injuries yet 2007 down to smith?

No, yes injuries have occured big time this year, however if Hagan was still coach it would be his fault.

 

[Ron Jeremy]

Yes he did and he had the best player in the world in his side and a decent squad around him. For the next 5 years he built nothing on that. Now Parramatta in their current state have a very good squad but they don't look like a premiership winning squad right now to me, I don't see Hagan having the ability to lift them to that level.

Onething about Hagan is that we have seemed to lift for the big games and not choked. I hope this trend continues. Under Smith we looked way to nervous in the big games and Gould and co would harp on it.

 

[Ron Jeremy]

sh*t, JG, you got us there. Brian Smith is a better coach that Ronny Hilditch. Smith also won a third grade premiership with Souths about 20 years ago too. He also knew Billy Smith, and probably once had a beer with Mark Shulman. What a resume!!!!

Hagan, who won premierships as a player and a coach, obviously knows nothing.

:lol: