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Southern Sharks

joshreading

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
1,720
In ten or so years the chances are that to stay on top the cost to run an NRL club and establish ourselves as the dominant code in Australia (and keep off Union from stealing our players) will double.

If such is the case (and it will be) can clubs in Sydney like the Sharks (and others - they are only an example) scrap up a minimum of 20 million? On their supporter base and the sponsorship potential that that brings there is NO chance. I think a proposal such as this briefly outlined gives the best of both worlds.

Imagine the opportunity to represent around 2 million people (combining the pop of SA and the Shire) The Sharks could actually become a popular club around Australia and even more dominant in that regard then the Dragons.
 

joshreading

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
1,720
For the Roosters gloating - my other thought is to merge the Sharks and Roosters - East City Sharks. Playing out of Shark Park and major games at the SFS. Money and juniors and an actual heartland you can dominate.
 

Monk

Referee
Messages
21,347
might as well merge souffs and sharks.
souths get a home ground, sharks get russell crowe
 

Ausguy

Coach
Messages
14,887
i understand you are just tossing up ideas Josh and thats ok. Yes im a sharks fan and i dont see any of this likely to happen so im certainly not making an angry post defending the sharks but here are my thoughts

a couple of things:-

- Do Adelaide even want a team? i know you were possibly just using them as an example and the same can be said for Perth etc

- Adelaide has been done before and failed. i would have serious concerns about their ability to attract the 20000+ crowd a team would need to stay viable. up against the crows and port the adelide franchise would be pushing s hit up a hill to get any sort of dominance regardless of whether a new franchise started there or a re-located team was to go there.

- Costs/taxes are what is currently causing the "sydney" clubs issue... how would putting a team in Adelaide and Sydney help in reducing costs? Whilst this is not the sole reason im against it it is a contributing factor that would need to be considered.

- I also raise the broader question of are we (rugby league in general) trying to hard to "win" everything? and by that i mean we talk about Rugby Union "catching up".... of course they will it is a national sport in 10+ countries... league is only a recognised national sport in 3 in my opinion. Our competition is Super 14's and lets face it they have teams from 3 nations with lots of support because the popularity if this sport in the country comes from having a national team to support that has ability (SA AUS and NZ). AFL is not an international sport.... however the people of melbourne ensure it by having so much support for their game. This is then backed up in perth sydney adelaide and brisbane by having just as much support but for less teams.

I spose the point im trying to make is what we need to do is stop worrying about trying to "Beat" all the other codes cos we might "die" because by not watching wat is going on infront of use we are ensuring we die anyway.

Instead of looking to expand out (adelaide etc) lets look at staying in with more focus on getting people to the games. Teams should play at "HOME" not at ANZ. Souths have 6 Home stadiums this year is that correct? Lets get the dragons back to oki and win, parra at parra only, the dogs at anz or belmore only.... tigers at leichardt and campbelltown only... you get my drift....

i just dont believe expanding the competition to other states is the answer. I dont know that there is an answer but all i can say is that unless the sharks remain the cronulla sharks i wont support them. Nothing against a merger with any other sydney team thats fine but i wont be a part of it.

Im sure when the dragons/steelers merger happened people were lost to the game and they have managed to keep previous fans of both clubs and attracted new ones, thats great but i couldnt support a team with my hand on my heart that was a merged team. I just couldnt do it. and i suppose thats the shame of it all.
 

fatshark

Bench
Messages
2,521
Lets face it. Sutherland shire is a bit limited.

Haha you tool. Limited in what?
I dont mind merging with Saint George, But we'd still be the Sharks, still play at Shark Park and still be sky blue black and white...in other words,it aint gonna happen. AS far as Im concerned SA and WA are lost to the AFL....it wont happen for a very long time.

If such is the case (and it will be) can clubs in Sydney like the Sharks (and others - they are only an example) scrap up a minimum of 20 million?

ermm not one single club would get that sort of money. If anything in 20 years the Sharks will be better off as they are asset rich...unlike MOST clubs.
Josh you have an Agenda against the Sharks. You have no facts, just stupid personal ideas. Keep em to yourself champ, the world will be a better place.
 

joshreading

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
1,720
Do Adelaide even want a team?
Yes, the SARL have come out with a similar proposal saying they believe they have the corporate support and a relocation starting with a partial relocation would work well. My suggestion is is not totally relocate as such but to establish a wider reach.


Adelaide has been done before and failed. i would have serious concerns about their ability to attract the 20000+ crowd a team would need to stay viable. up against the crows and port the adelide franchise would be pushing s hit up a hill to get any sort of dominance regardless of whether a new franchise started there or a re-located team was to go there.

I think we as Rugby League have missed the point in expansion, getting LOWER crowds in a new area is sometimes worth more financially in regards to TV rights etc. then the maintenance of crowds in a saturated market. Adelaide would add fans - even if they could only add say 12 - 15000 fans at a game. You open up a new TV market, a new merchandise market for the Sharks and MOST importantly a sponsorship market of over a million and the corporates that go with it.

Costs/taxes are what is currently causing the "sydney" clubs issue... how would putting a team in Adelaide and Sydney help in reducing costs? Whilst this is not the sole reason im against it it is a contributing factor that would need to be considered.

The COST mentality is exactly most of Sydney Rugby Leagues problem at present. Our focus needs to be taken off lower Costs as such and turn to increasing REVENUE. How can a club increase their revenue and put itself in a position to INCREASE COSTS so we can retain Stars, increase dominance etc.

Broader Question: general conception we need to look after and get back to our home bases

I like the idea of our traditional homes BUT whether people like it or not, by and large these new venues (esp ANZ) have INCREASED crowds and revenue. Playing at home grounds if it were such an advantage would be the norm if it grew crowds etc but the fan base is now not normally totally defined by geography. That said I think the Stadium issue is relevant.

You also ultimately look after home by establishing a sense of confidence, even arrogance in your position. If a company waited to totally dominate one market before going to a second there would be no Coke or Ford. Religiously/philosophically Christianity would be a sect of Judaism in Jerusalem still strying to consolidate its position. (I hope that sort of makes sense)

I dont know that there is an answer but all i can say is that unless the sharks remain the cronulla sharks i wont support them

I can understand the feeling (I was originally a Manly fan before the Storm came in but chose to follow the NE as well) BUT if that means the end of Cronulla (for instance, not saying it would happen as they are more secure then most) would you rather go down to the NSW Cup as Cronulla then support a team that on the playing field is effectively identical, playing regular games in Cronulla that just happens to have 'Southern' in front of it?
 

joshreading

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
1,720
ermm not one single club would get that sort of money. If anything in 20 years the Sharks will be better off as they are asset rich...unlike MOST clubs.

Josh you have an Agenda against the Sharks. You have no facts, just stupid personal ideas. Keep em to yourself champ, the world will be a better place.

I have no agenda, my use of the Sharks is simply using the club I think has MOST to gain, in the easiest way without damaging their base that much. Other clubs could look at this style option as well.

If you don't think that in the next ten or so years the top Sydney clubs will NEED 20 million you are living in a fantasy world (HaC and Co on the South Sydney Story made it clear that to COMPETE now a Sydney club needs atleast 15 million). The TOP clubs in Sydney already operate at 15 million plus. It WILL happen. Will your club be able to support such an outlay? I realise the Sharks are probably one of the safest club in the present environment in Sydney. Part of RL's problem is that is only wants to survive not thrive and dominate.
 

BrisVegas

Juniors
Messages
892
I have no agenda, my use of the Sharks is simply using the club I think has MOST to gain, in the easiest way without damaging their base that much. Other clubs could look at this style option as well.

If you don't think that in the next ten or so years the top Sydney clubs will NEED 20 million you are living in a fantasy world (HaC and Co on the South Sydney Story made it clear that to COMPETE now a Sydney club needs atleast 15 million). The TOP clubs in Sydney already operate at 15 million plus. It WILL happen. Will your club be able to support such an outlay? I realise the Sharks are probably one of the safest club in the present environment in Sydney. Part of RL's problem is that is only wants to survive not thrive and dominate.

To expand on the issue of money required to field an NRL side:

Brisbane & The Gold Coast will be looking at revenue of $23m-$25 million this coming financial year (and only about 400k-500k of that poker machine revenue).

The lower spending Sydney clubs (Cronulla, Penrith) are looking at revenue of $10m-$12m.

Lets assume that all clubs are spending up to the $4m salary cap.

Brisbane/Gold Coast are spending $19m-$21m on football operations other then the playing roster.

Cronulla/Penrith are spending $6m-$8m on football operations other then the playing roster.

Therefore the SE-QLD clubs are outspending the Sydney clubs by a factor of over 250%. The sort of competitive edge that gives a team is huge: if clubs want to stay competitive they will need to match that sort of money.
 

bobmar28

Bench
Messages
4,304
i understand you are just tossing up ideas Josh and thats ok. Yes im a sharks fan and i dont see any of this likely to happen so im certainly not making an angry post defending the sharks but here are my thoughts

a couple of things:-

- Do Adelaide even want a team? i know you were possibly just using them as an example and the same can be said for Perth etc

- Adelaide has been done before and failed. i would have serious concerns about their ability to attract the 20000+ crowd a team would need to stay viable. up against the crows and port the adelide franchise would be pushing s hit up a hill to get any sort of dominance regardless of whether a new franchise started there or a re-located team was to go there.

- Costs/taxes are what is currently causing the "sydney" clubs issue... how would putting a team in Adelaide and Sydney help in reducing costs? Whilst this is not the sole reason im against it it is a contributing factor that would need to be considered.

- I also raise the broader question of are we (rugby league in general) trying to hard to "win" everything? and by that i mean we talk about Rugby Union "catching up".... of course they will it is a national sport in 10+ countries... league is only a recognised national sport in 3 in my opinion. Our competition is Super 14's and lets face it they have teams from 3 nations with lots of support because the popularity if this sport in the country comes from having a national team to support that has ability (SA AUS and NZ). AFL is not an international sport.... however the people of melbourne ensure it by having so much support for their game. This is then backed up in perth sydney adelaide and brisbane by having just as much support but for less teams.

I spose the point im trying to make is what we need to do is stop worrying about trying to "Beat" all the other codes cos we might "die" because by not watching wat is going on infront of use we are ensuring we die anyway.

Instead of looking to expand out (adelaide etc) lets look at staying in with more focus on getting people to the games. Teams should play at "HOME" not at ANZ. Souths have 6 Home stadiums this year is that correct? Lets get the dragons back to oki and win, parra at parra only, the dogs at anz or belmore only.... tigers at leichardt and campbelltown only... you get my drift....

i just dont believe expanding the competition to other states is the answer. I dont know that there is an answer but all i can say is that unless the sharks remain the cronulla sharks i wont support them. Nothing against a merger with any other sydney team thats fine but i wont be a part of it.

Im sure when the dragons/steelers merger happened people were lost to the game and they have managed to keep previous fans of both clubs and attracted new ones, thats great but i couldnt support a team with my hand on my heart that was a merged team. I just couldnt do it. and i suppose thats the shame of it all.
What will you do if it happens?
 
Messages
15,216
BEFORE Sharkies fans go crazy about their stability etc. WHAT IF the NRL offered four million for a PARTIAL relocation in that 4 - 6 games would be moved to Adelaide for a contracted period of say Ten years. Thus making a gaurantee for both the Sydney based home and Adelaide base of stability and consistency. The SA government and business would need to be involved. (think the Rams had SEVEN thousand members when they were shut)

Shark Park would be retained and games against the Sharks by other teams in Sydney would be sought to bring the Cronulla based homes games back up to say ten.

A slight name change to Southern Sharks would be made still being relevant to both areas (and maybe even the South Coast could be an aim) The Sharks are a marketable name and image.

Could it work? Pros and Cons (and maybe another team is a better option)

Who do you support Josh?
 

Vossy

Bench
Messages
3,440
I have no agenda, my use of the Sharks is simply using the club I think has MOST to gain, in the easiest way without damaging their base that much. Other clubs could look at this style option as well.

how about we move YOUR club and see how you like it..continually banging on about the sharks moving, your sounding like you have as much hate for us as phil gould..

moving teams wont work, merging teams wont work..you will lose 1000's of fans because they dont want to follow another team..decrease teams your gifting other codes the fans that have left league

adelaide wont work..its 2 AFL teams will kill it off in less then 5 years..and perth are working on getting there own team..not someone elses team..people in adelaide havent got the slighest clue as to what rugby league is

sharks go...i go
 

joshreading

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
1,720
I support Melbourne and as a Victorian of course I am biased towards expansion because I and others have benefited.

So lets look at my club.

Melbourne Storm

Disadvantages
- drip fed through its owner News Ltd - similar to pokies for Sydney Clubs
- lower junior base and thus home grown players
- low core supporter base
- garbage stadium

Advantages
- One of the largest sponsorship bases in the NRL
- revenue base is increasing and is expected to make a profit in 2010 in new stadium (one of the best in Australia at that)
- Creates wider base for the NRL in regards to sponsorship/TV revenue etc.
- increasing junior base - under 20's has nine locals - good potential for the future
- HUGE casual supporter base - bigger than anyone else's except the Broncos

What could the Storm do to ensure viability and help in national exposure/coverage?

1. It is in itself an exposure and expansion reality for the NRL
2. Get the Stadium built
3. Take a game on the Road to NZ
4. Game in Geelong/Albury Wodonga

Lets suppose the Storm were threatened with extinction and/or their future looked cloudy because of limited growth potential and I was faced with the reality of seeing the Team fold OR become the Southern Storm and play 6 home games in Adelaide yet have another four away games allocated to Melbourne to increase the Melbourne Base to Ten games (from other teams home games against the Storm) would I continue to follow them?

YES and before you say I have no idea about the feeling of merging etc. I started following RL in the NT when I started playing I played for the Katherine Harley Raiders and I follow MANLY - as the Storm did not exist. When they merged and became the Nothern Eagles was I cut, yep did I make a decision that I would follow them anyway. Yep. Would I have been happier if we were given the option of becoming the Coastal Sea Eagles and playing ten games in Manly (with relocated homes games) and six on the Sunshine Coast. Probably.

All I am proposing is a situation whereby a Sydney team continues to exist without merging but adapts its identity slightly so that it might extend its supporter and sponsorship base.

Other Options so the Sharks don't feel picked on

Western Panthers - Penrith and Perth
Coastal Sea Eagles - Northern Beaches and Sunshine Coast
Canterbury Bulldogs -Sydney and Christchurch
East Coast Roosters - Sydney City and Central Coast
Southern Saints - Illawarra and Wellington

ohh... and for measure NQ takover the Norths image a little and become the NQ Bears - how is that for a stir

Ok... have I cut everybody now sufficently?
 

cronullashark

Juniors
Messages
770
i believe that at some stage maybe within 5-8 years, the sharks, dragons & steelers will all be one team.

i thought about a year after the saints / steelers merger, that at some atge the sharks would be incorporated.


i hope it doesn't happen - but i feel that's where it's headed.

i think you are 100% spot on
 

Misanthrope

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
47,624
Why move them to Adelaide? Alliteration is lame, and Perth would be a better prospect. Western Sharks doesn't sound so bad.
 
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