Spread of League in England

[DINGb@T]

Just read this article online. Is it true that in a large city a short drive from St Helens, Wigan and Salford they have only just got their first junior League club?!? Is this an indicator of how super-parochial the game is in the North of England, that it hasn't even spread 'next door,' or am I just looking at the wrong Liverpool or something?

 

[VictoryFC]

I don't live in England, but whats so shocking? Maybe people in Liverpool just didn't give a sh** prior to justify any kind of movement or progress. It's a good sign for League in England. Would be nice to see League do well in at least 1 actual city in that country. I mean, at club level, League is basically equal 2nd (with union) in terms of popularity in the entire country - yet outside of Leeds not one of the teams comes from/ is successful in a city people would identify with England (Sorry Bradford and Hull, and Quins dont count).

Wouldnt it be great to have a well supported team in Liverpool?

 

[WireMan]

Its what i said in another thread about expansion. People seem to think expansion of rugby league means sticking teams in the midlands, Scotland, Cornwall etc. Two of the biggest cities in the country in Manchester and Liverpool have no Rugby league.

They are football cities. Trying to expand into these regions is so much easier than into new areas and would add a lot to the game. A lot of people live in Rugby towns but work in the city, therefore games may be talked about at work etc.

Rugby Union has the same problem, very few team in big cities. If your not counting Hull you can't count Bristol, and they have one team in London (same as league).

 

[VictoryFC]

I understand you can't just place teams in the big cities and expect them to bloom. That's not the issue. I was just fantasizing.

Also, so what if they are soccer cities? Bradford, Huddersfield, Leeds are all soccer towns/cities too by last count, yet they can sustain League teams. No reason why a future team in bigger cities can't be sustainable.

From the outside, Bristol just seems more relevant than Hull. Sorry. It was more of a dig than anything.

 

[WireMan]

I agree with you, these cities can have a team. I was saying that to get a team in there is like expansion and maybe future expansion talk could focus on areas closer to the heartlands.

Of course as both cities are on the M62 it will no doubt be shot down as making it a northern sport. Like there is anything wrong with that.


Also copletely irrelevant to the thread but i'd say Bristol is no more relevant than Hull.

 

[DINGb@T]

Just thinking that we're always told League is a 'northern sport' in England so the impression is that the north is heavily involved with League while everywhere else it flies under the radar. It's a bit surprising to learn that even in the major cities of the north there hasn't been a large amount of participation and, I'm assuming, therefore a large amount of awareness. Makes sense though- there's no 'Manchester' team etc. All the Superleague teams seem to be satellite towns for the most part.

Wireman, what's your oppinion- if grassroots interest did build in places like Liverpool or Manchester proper would it be likely that they'd go for their own professional teams in the Championship comps on their way to Superleague or would the already established clubs 'take up too much of their oxygen' via their close proximity?

 

[WireMan]

Just thinking that we're always told League is a 'northern sport' in England so the impression is that the north is heavily involved with League while everywhere else it flies under the radar. It's a bit surprising to learn that even in the major cities of the north there hasn't been a large amount of participation and, I'm assuming, therefore a large amount of awareness. Makes sense though- there's no 'Manchester' team etc. All the Superleague teams seem to be satellite towns for the most part.

Wireman, what's your oppinion- if grassroots interest did build in places like Liverpool or Manchester proper would it be likely that they'd go for their own professional teams in the Championship comps on their way to Superleague or would the already established clubs 'take up too much of their oxygen' via their close proximity?

I doubt the established clubs would effect what happens in the cities. If you speak to anyone from one of the cities the towns are miles away and out of sight out of mind. Very few Mancs or Scousers would go out of there way to support one of the town teams.

A championship side called Liverpool or Manchester would really help the sport. Manchester for example has Wigan, Leigh, Swinton, Rochdale, Oldham, Salford and probably more in the greater Manc area. However the way tribalism works in this country none of them are in Manchester and the youth of city districts have no connection with it.

Even more so in Liverpool. I'm not sure why no team ever developed around there. It seems like a really big black hole where rugby is concerned.

There is talk about some games going to Liverpool next year as St Helens don't have there own ground so them vs Wire or Wigan may go to Goodison. That could help.

 

[Evil Homer]

Just thinking that we're always told League is a 'northern sport' in England so the impression is that the north is heavily involved with League while everywhere else it flies under the radar. It's a bit surprising to learn that even in the major cities of the north there hasn't been a large amount of participation and, I'm assuming, therefore a large amount of awareness. Makes sense though- there's no 'Manchester' team etc. All the Superleague teams seem to be satellite towns for the most part.

The sport is incredibly parochial even in the North, there are towns that are RL mad, where virtually everyone in the area follows a team, the local pubs are packed every week for the live games etc, and then 3 miles down the road in the next town the sport has no profile. There's no logical reason for this and I'm not sure why it is the case, I guess because RL in these kind of places is incredibly community-driven. There's certainly not blanket coverage in the North. Regarding Liverpool, there is some interest there, St Helens draw some support and have a few Scouse players, James Graham being the most notable, but interested parties have always had to leave the city to get involved. I live in Sheffield which is probably similar to Liverpool in many ways, it's one of the largest cities in the country and only half an hour's drive from some real RL heartlands, yet despite having a professional club and several strong amateur teams the sport flies completely under the radar and there's a sort of French Resistance-like mutual respect when you find that someone else you know is a RL fan. I assume the same goes for Manchester too. I think the biggest problem is the fact that all three cities have two very successful football teams, which maybe dilutes the sporting market a bit, RL is still probably the second biggest sport in all these cities but the dominance of football is so great that we don't really get a look in.

 

[WireMan]

The sport is incredibly parochial even in the North, there are towns that are RL mad, where virtually everyone in the area follows a team, the local pubs are packed every week for the live games etc, and then 3 miles down the road in the next town the sport has no profile. There's no logical reason for this and I'm not sure why it is the case, I guess because RL in these kind of places is incredibly community-driven. There's certainly not blanket coverage in the North. Regarding Liverpool, there is some interest there, St Helens draw some support and have a few Scouse players, James Graham being the most notable, but interested parties have always had to leave the city to get involved. I live in Sheffield which is probably similar to Liverpool in many ways, it's one of the largest cities in the country and only half an hour's drive from some real RL heartlands, yet despite having a professional club and several strong amateur teams the sport flies completely under the radar and there's a sort of French Resistance-like mutual respect when you find that someone else you know is a RL fan. I assume the same goes for Manchester too. I think the biggest problem is the fact that all three cities have two very successful football teams, which maybe dilutes the sporting market a bit, RL is still probably the second biggest sport in all these cities but the dominance of football is so great that we don't really get a look in.

Its wierd isn't it? I think your spot on about the community thing. Its a double edged blade though. It has basically kept the sport of Rugby league alive in England which is good. But it makes it really hard to expand and grow which is not good.

Look at Cas and Wakey at the mo. If there was ever a case for a ground share thats it. What has kept both clubs alive for a hundred years may end up killing top flight rugby in the city!

 

[DINGb@T]

That's interesting. Thanks for the replies- always like hearing about different League cultures.

 

[deluded pom?]

I think the biggest problem is the fact that all three cities have two very successful football teams, which maybe dilutes the sporting market a bit, RL is still probably the second biggest sport in all these cities but the dominance of football is so great that we don't really get a look in.

I was with you all the way until you described Sheffield Wednesday as a very succesful football team.

 

[bowes]

Manchester only have one club Mancunians and they haven't yet started juniors. Liverpool has 1 adults team Liverpool Buccaneers and 3 juniors: Liverpool Lions, Liverpool Storm and Liverpool Buccaneers. The Lions are the only ones in the NWCL the rest play festivals.

There used to be a Liverpool pro club but they relocated a lot (to put it mildly) and have since folded, the last pro club in Manchester, Belle Vue Rangers, folded in the 50s. There used to be lots of little ones in the early days of RL but no big club for everyone to get around plus the travelling in the Lancashire 2nd competition up to Barrow frequently was a killer so they all disappeared quickly

 

[bowes]

The sport is incredibly parochial even in the North, there are towns that are RL mad, where virtually everyone in the area follows a team, the local pubs are packed every week for the live games etc, and then 3 miles down the road in the next town the sport has no profile. There's no logical reason for this and I'm not sure why it is the case, I guess because RL in these kind of places is incredibly community-driven. There's certainly not blanket coverage in the North. Regarding Liverpool, there is some interest there, St Helens draw some support and have a few Scouse players, James Graham being the most notable, but interested parties have always had to leave the city to get involved. I live in Sheffield which is probably similar to Liverpool in many ways, it's one of the largest cities in the country and only half an hour's drive from some real RL heartlands, yet despite having a professional club and several strong amateur teams the sport flies completely under the radar and there's a sort of French Resistance-like mutual respect when you find that someone else you know is a RL fan. I assume the same goes for Manchester too. I think the biggest problem is the fact that all three cities have two very successful football teams, which maybe dilutes the sporting market a bit, RL is still probably the second biggest sport in all these cities but the dominance of football is so great that we don't really get a look in.

Cricket would be 2nd by far I'd have thought

 

[VictoryFC]

I was with you all the way until you described Sheffield Wednesday as a very succesful football team.

Plus the Blades are arguably bigger than Wednesday atm.

Cricket would be 2nd by far I'd have thought

Is it? Outside of England playing every now and then, how popular is cricket really? I've been reading about the "crown jewels" being protected by FTA, and it constantly seems like journos are saying that cricket internationals being on pay-tv would cripple the game over there. Without a club game as a foundation, sports are vulnerable to being irrelevant/relevant on and off depending on success. Out of curiosity how many people really care about Lancashire cricket or whatever? Its a bit like state cricket here; its fairly irrelevant.

Thats the plus League and Union in comparison to sports like golf, tennis, cricket etc.

 

[deluded pom?]

I know very few people who attend club cricket matches outside of the Roses game. I know a couple who attend Test matches. As a comparison to this thread how many junior teams are there in Melbourne at this moment in time?

 

[RedVee]

Interesting thread.
I sort of thought of Salford being part of Manchester in the same way Parramatta, Penrith or Campbelltown is part of Sydney. Same with St Helens and Liverpool. Evidently not how it is.

 

[WireMan]

Interesting thread.
I sort of thought of Salford being part of Manchester in the same way Parramatta, Penrith or Campbelltown is part of Sydney. Same with St Helens and Liverpool. Evidently not how it is.

Salford sort of is part of Manchester, you will go from Manc to Salford without noticing anything other than a small sign. There is no gap in buildings or anything.

However that being said the people of Salford see themselves in no way from Manchester, and more relevant to this thread people of Manchester don't see themselves as anything to do with Salford.

St Helens is miles away from Liverpool. It is the closest team to them hence if you are scouse and follow league, chances are it will be them you support. But you won't follow league because they are your local team if you see what i mean.

 

[Daveyboy]

Hey guys,

Interesting thread. I grew up in Oz, but came back here to coach league.

I coached in South Wales the year the Crusaders came into the comp at Bridgend, i now coach in London. Two areas that dont regard league as No.1. Now Crusaders moving to Wrexham is good for player base as they are now closer to the heart of league, but there were more people in the South..but i saw first hand and was involved in helping League in South wales, what a nightmare.

Anyway back to the points made...i couldnt see Manchester working. Not at all. Way too competition from multiple football teams, so much schedule mucking around to not clash with United/City they wouldnt ever get a home game lol.

Liverpool, which is where my mother is from and have been to has more chance. Id like to see it if it would work, but i can say this..the Crusaders arent that far way from Liverpool now. Secondly there will be teams put into the comp long before Liverpool and Manchester get a shot. Best they can hope for is Championship level. In order for the game to taken seriously it needs to be truly National...meaning...

A team in Scotland, another team in France, another team in London (one that hasnt screwed it up). Ive been to the Stoop many times even as a coach and lets be fair..its a bit of trek. I hope i either get some lottery money or find a rich person who sees the chance but ive found 4 plots of land in central (real central) London where a team could go in....people would attend just for the entertainment value..going to the Stoop at Twicks is a real committment. Ive even had some of my players come back due to fact they cant even stick to going out there to train and they were players!

Once those three bases are covered...then maybe another up North. Until then...just dont see it.

D.

 

[VictoryFC]

Interesting thread.
I sort of thought of Salford being part of Manchester in the same way Parramatta, Penrith or Campbelltown is part of Sydney. Same with St Helens and Liverpool. Evidently not how it is.

Same here. Such a small country that England, hard to imagine 52 million people living in the size of one of our states. Any suburb in Sydney could be its own little town in England!

Salford sort of is part of Manchester, you will go from Manc to Salford without noticing anything other than a small sign. There is no gap in buildings or anything.

However that being said the people of Salford see themselves in no way from Manchester, and more relevant to this thread people of Manchester don't see themselves as anything to do with Salford.

St Helens is miles away from Liverpool. It is the closest team to them hence if you are scouse and follow league, chances are it will be them you support. But you won't follow league because they are your local team if you see what i mean.

I thought Salford/St Helens were part of the Manchester/Liverpool urban areas? Because Penrith would be exactly like that with Sydney, just part of the greater urban area of Sydney. Even if by English standards its it own place outside of the city centre. Like with Manchester, the population is something like 400,000, yet its urban area is 2.5 mill or something. Sydney would have a population of couple of hundred thousand with an urban area of 5 mil.

It does make sense though. It's much easier when our entire country is basically made up of large urban areas. It would be like if Englands entire population lived in London, Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, and Newcastle urban areas exclusively. I think its fascinating the entire country is populated. I imagine it would be really fun driving around England, and every 20 minutes coming across a new town in whichever direction you went, unlike the time my family drove from Melbourne to Sydney - a 10 hour journey of nothing but barren landscape.

 

[WireMan]

Hey guys,

Interesting thread. I grew up in Oz, but came back here to coach league.

I coached in South Wales the year the Crusaders came into the comp at Bridgend, i now coach in London. Two areas that dont regard league as No.1. Now Crusaders moving to Wrexham is good for player base as they are now closer to the heart of league, but there were more people in the South..but i saw first hand and was involved in helping League in South wales, what a nightmare.

Anyway back to the points made...i couldnt see Manchester working. Not at all. Way too competition from multiple football teams, so much schedule mucking around to not clash with United/City they wouldnt ever get a home game lol.

Liverpool, which is where my mother is from and have been to has more chance. Id like to see it if it would work, but i can say this..the Crusaders arent that far way from Liverpool now. Secondly there will be teams put into the comp long before Liverpool and Manchester get a shot. Best they can hope for is Championship level. In order for the game to taken seriously it needs to be truly National...meaning...

A team in Scotland, another team in France, another team in London (one that hasnt screwed it up). Ive been to the Stoop many times even as a coach and lets be fair..its a bit of trek. I hope i either get some lottery money or find a rich person who sees the chance but ive found 4 plots of land in central (real central) London where a team could go in....people would attend just for the entertainment value..going to the Stoop at Twicks is a real committment. Ive even had some of my players come back due to fact they cant even stick to going out there to train and they were players!

Once those three bases are covered...then maybe another up North. Until then...just dont see it.

D.

The dream would be the Scorpions in South Wales, a second team in London and a second team in France. Out of them IMO a second London team is least likely. The others have potential. It would create a real rivalry in the countries. I think a swap of either Wakey or Cas for Widnes is on the cards. Anything else then would be an expansion in the true sense of the word.

Out of interest, what plots of land you thinking? Current grounds? Loftus Road? Sellhurst park? Olympic Stadium? I don't know much about the geography of London so they are guesses. For all i know they are harder to get ot than the Stoop!!

I don't agree about Scotland. I think Cunbria is more likely. Scotland can't get crowds for Union or even Football outside of the old firm.

Interesting what you say about Manc and Scouseland. It would be nice to have teams in those areas but i doubt it will happen. Football is just to big. Its fun to throw ideas out there though!!