Spread of League in England

[Pommie Saints Fan]

I used to be on a St Helens forum a bit and there was an unholy row about a final against Wigan (pie-eaters I hear!) being played at Bolton. The distance being much too much to contemplate etc. I had a look and it seemed to be around 50-80ks. (You guys can fill me in). I go to all the St George Illawarra home games - both grounds are 50ks from home, the SFS would be 70 odd. Work each day is just over 50ks (eachway).
Would I travel that far to a final? Absolutely.

Mate, its probably 20k at the most from St Helens to Bolton. Not sure where you got 50-80 kilometres from ;-)

 

[bowes]

Did I say move them in straight away?

No I bloody well didn't, right!

And what is wrong with them or any other London based club building up over the years until they feel they can move into a bigger ground?

Give yourself a triple. :x





So just give up eh?

I mean, it's no use to have any team in any country to to get bigger,better tell spinner in America to give up as only established teams with a 100 years support deserve to play in the big time even if their 100 years worth of support is sh*t.



That's why I said Skolars, Storm or some other London based club :roll:




I don't care what other sports are around and I think it's about time many in our own game started doing the same thing.

It's ok for all these other sports to move into our heartlands, yet if RL decides to even attempt moving out of its box, the sh*t hits the fan for some reason.

We have a bloody great game, how about people back it just for once.



As I said, any london based team, it doesn't have to be one that is playing now, it could be another that comes along in the future.

As you said above, the team wins one game a year and still get 3/400 a match, well how about getting that right and start winning?

I'm sure a few seasons of winning footy will see the crowds grow by a few hundred.

By 2012/13 they could be averaging 800 if they are smart and everyone knows that a winning team will bring in more fans. You keep the team competitive over the next decade and god knows where the support will be, it could be sh*t still, yet it could blow you away.

Every team has a right to want to better themselves, it's just a pity RL in England and Australia is filled with flatcappers.

We've put 30 years into London and they're getting 2500 to matches and losing £1.5-2 million every year which David Hughes (minority shareholder) won't pay forever and noone's interested in taking over as majority shareholder (the Quins majority shareholder is barred from investing a penny due to owning Wigan) even when it's offered for £10.

It would be ludicrous to give up on London from a getting people to play point of view, but there's no reason the SL team shouldn't be moved somewhere in the Home Counties where costs are less and crowds higher, still close enough to London to provide a pathway for development and for the few diehards to go. There's no support base in London and we shouldn't put all our eggs in one basket that has failed miserably, there's so many other expansion areas that haven't been tried due to this obsession with flogging a dead horse in London. The fact that a side can set up in Wrexham and get much bigger crowds than Harlequins shows there's areas wanting a top side.

Play internationals in the Olympic stadium by all means but unless you want to put your money where your mouth is and subsidise a SL club in London by a couple of million it is unviable

Other sports are worth looking at for market research as are on the road games (we'll see what Quins get if they play on the road games in MK next year as is rumoured). There is a huge untapped marked in the greater SE outside of London, RU took up just a part of it with moving 3 sides into it. The Broncos got much of their support from the Thames Valley area so that seems the best bet. Oxford have been desperate for a rugby side for years and Lenegan owns the club (although he's supposed to sell Quins) so if he still wants to help them in less direct ways (as I'm sure he will) he could get them a good deal there.

Maybe one day in the relatively distant future a SL bid could come from the stadium, though too early to plan for it now

 

[bowes]

I agree with ParraEels; it's ok to be realistic about what the sporting landscape is like in England, but to outright reject any forward thinking is a tad bizarre.

If West Ham doesn't move in, why wouldn't they want extra match days at the venue, especially if it continues on as an athletics venue. The rent would be tailored to what a RL can afford, that much is obvious.

We have a new 31,000, $250mil stadium in Melbourne, for League, soccer and a union team who at this point in time are all likely to kick off their first season in the stadium well below capacity. But the potential for growth is there.

That is one noticeable difference between England and Australia, in that sports clubs over there seem to have to justify the size of their stadium. If they're not filling it out, they don't deserve it! We have massive stadiums that are less than half capacity most of the time. Over there clubs are a laughing stock if they are 2-3000 below capacity (from my experience mingling with soccer fans).

From what I understand there are a lot of interested parties: Skolars in their bid to be a SL club, 2 union teams, 2 soccer teams, and a cricket team. So no shortage of takers. I imagine though that if the Olympic committee or whoever are interested in keeping that track, and reducing capacity to 25,000 that Skolars and Leyton Orient would be right up there, even if it means moving Skolars from North London, especially because Wasps/Saracens would be foolish to move. Skolars would have nothing to lose. But yes, England's insistence on filling capacities might quash any aspirations.

Skolars have no bid to be a SL club, before their link up with Harlequins to get fringe players they were expected to drop to amateur status.

West Ham would want the stadium to stay about 55000 which really is too big (good place for a world cup game or 2 though), the other clubs would want about 25000 I'd guess

 

[bowes]

The club is in serious trouble, they use to bring in and play aussies but now cant afford them, but in return they are now developing more home grown talent.

They changed the law so non-Kolpaks getting paid for sport have to get a full sports visa not a work/leisure one which is hard to get. Don't think they've ever paid much

 

[Evil Homer]

Bowes, you know that Quins don't in any way represent the potential for RL in London.

 

[RedVee]

Mate, its probably 20k at the most from St Helens to Bolton. Not sure where you got 50-80 kilometres from ;-)

A girl from Bolton told me 50ks, so I added in my mind the 80ks figure just in case she meant 50 miles.

But if it is 20ks, and I am not doubting you, that underlines even more the differences - seriously why all the horror about a 20 k drive to Bolton?
20ks is what my kids do at the school walkathon.

 

[Evil Homer]

A girl from Bolton told me 50ks, so I added in my mind the 80ks figure just in case she meant 50 miles.

But if it is 20ks, and I am not doubting you, that underlines even more the differences - seriously why all the horror about a 20 k drive to Bolton?
20ks is what my kids do at the school walkathon.

I'm guessing by 'final' you mean a play-off match? I doubt the 'horror' was because the distance was too far to contemplate since St Helens have sold out 25k for World Club Challenge matches played in Bolton and often take 1000+ away fans to games in Yorkshire. It was probably more to do with logistics or that they felt the game didn't need to be moved, I think you've probably got the wrong end of the stick with that one. FWIW, it's about 30ks to Bolton from St Helens, and about 15ks from St Helens to Widnes which is where all their home games will be played next year.

 

[bowes]

Bowes, you know that Quins don't in any way represent the potential for RL in London.

Yes but even Broncos got 4000 and that was in a large part fans from the Thames Valley area. London is the last place to get good support for a sports club, better to try the many markets neglected by union

I don't get the obsession with London at the expense of better opportunities elsewhere

 

[deluded pom?]

The fact that a side can set up in Wrexham and get much bigger crowds than Harlequins shows there's areas wanting a top side.

Hmmm. Today's attendance at the Racecourse was less than 1500. The lowest crowd of the SLE season so far. This with the novelty of a first year at Wrexham too. Their average is 4700 and dropping by the game.

 

[Teddyboy]

Hmmm. Today's attendance at the Racecourse was less than 1500. The lowest crowd of the SLE season so far. This with the novelty of a first year at Wrexham too. Their average is 4700 and dropping by the game.

I loved watching the big crowd and game of the Hull v KR derby and wish every Rugby League ground is like that but i really don't think Rugby League in Europe will get any bigger then the state it is in now.

 

[bowes]

The Crusaders game was on the road in Neath which explains the appalling crowd. I think they'll scrap these games next year. Crusaders really aren't popular in South Wales

4700 isn't great but it's nearly double Quins and more than Salford get. Not sure if it's sustainable long term, but think they will definitely get a renewed license this time. With more success I think they'd get higher crowds though

 

[rwaite]

Quite interesting the comments about possibly moving London Harlequins to either Oxford or Milton Keynes. London Irish RU play out of Reading so I see nothing wrong with the idea of moving them to Oxford and keeping London in the name. Personally I'd prefer to see them go back to being the Broncos.

I liked watching games at the Stoop when I was in the UK though I agree a move to Oxford would probably pull better crowds which is really what they need. Given the number of expat Kiwis and Aussies in London they should be pulling far better crowds at the Stoop with better advertising (eg. plugging it at Aussie bars and wherever Aussies and Kiwis hang out). They pulled an awesome crowd for that great test I saw there last year between Australia and NZ and they need more of those attendees to come see the Quins more regularly.

The Super League table looks really sad at the moment with the Quins and Catalans at the bottom and the Crusaders only a little higher. Doesn't look good for the expansion of the game in Europe. I'd be all for a second French team, a Scottish team and an Irish team when the timing is right for them.

 

[rwaite]

Does anyone have any thoughts about where a second south England SL team might flourish eg. Canterbury, Southampton or Brighton?

 

[bowes]

Does anyone have any thoughts about where a second south England SL team might flourish eg. Canterbury, Southampton or Brighton?

I've heard Luton suggested as a possibility as their biggest sports club is a Conference soccer club, perhaps too close to MK but would work with Oxford. Don't know how well the support would be as there's not the history but they could well use Hemel as a feeder club lower down because it's not too far away (but far too small for a SL club), plus between Hemel and nearby St Albans there's a lot of junior development. Also Bedfordshire's a big rugby area, but Bedford are only second tier (too small to support a top flight club)

Your suggestions are interesting though as there's no big rugby union clubs down the South Coast and some big population centres. So quite possibly somewhere to go for. Kent and Essex make some sense as there's junior development out there (more than West London).

Maybe on the road matches need to come back to gauge interest as it's hard to tell before a match is there? allegedly Quins are playing 2 in Milton Keynes next year but it's not confirmed


If the Conservatives have their way I wouldn't be surprised to see them start sending unemployed northerners down south for work, so that could increase the support for southern clubs (at the expense of smaller northern clubs) but unsure what scale this will be on

 

[VictoryFC]

Luton? I dunno. Luton Town averaged gates of 7,000 last year in the 5th division. Now, that's either a sign of a town that really gets behind their team, or a sign of a town where other sports are doomed to fail. Their 10,000 stadium isn't in the greatest of shapes either.

Portsmouth/Brighton is something though, only because St Marys in Southampton is too big, whereas Fratton Park and the new Brighton and Hove stadium are both potentially good SL grounds (20,000 and 22,000 respectively). Plus Portsmouth is almost as big as Southampton isn't it?

 

[RedVee]

I'm guessing by 'final' you mean a play-off match? I doubt the 'horror' was because the distance was too far to contemplate since St Helens have sold out 25k for World Club Challenge matches played in Bolton and often take 1000+ away fans to games in Yorkshire. It was probably more to do with logistics or that they felt the game didn't need to be moved, I think you've probably got the wrong end of the stick with that one. FWIW, it's about 30ks to Bolton from St Helens, and about 15ks from St Helens to Widnes which is where all their home games will be played next year.

Fair enough, Thank you.
So Saints to Widnes? I knew they were on the move for the new development but wasn't sure where.

I loved watching the big crowd and game of the Hull v KR derby and wish every Rugby League ground is like that but i really don't think Rugby League in Europe will get any bigger then the state it is in now.

I enjoyed that game too, though Channel 9 shenanigans had the recording start 4 and a bit minutes into the game, and finsh immediately after the conversion to make it 20-16, about 8 minutes to go! Very frustrating.

Luton? I dunno. Luton Town averaged gates of 7,000 last year in the 5th division. Now, that's either a sign of a town that really gets behind their team, or a sign of a town where other sports are doomed to fail. Their 10,000 stadium isn't in the greatest of shapes either.

Portsmouth/Brighton is something though, only because St Marys in Southampton is too big, whereas Fratton Park and the new Brighton and Hove stadium are both potentially good SL grounds (20,000 and 22,000 respectively). Plus Portsmouth is almost as big as Southampton isn't it?

St Marys is what, 32k? The Dell would have been a good size. Too bad it has gone. Would somewhere up near Guildford be any good? It seems a decent size town. Or, do you guys think it needs to be further from London for a Southern team?

 

[pcpp]

Hmmm. Today's attendance at the Racecourse was less than 1500. The lowest crowd of the SLE season so far. This with the novelty of a first year at Wrexham too. Their average is 4700 and dropping by the game.

The game was played in Neath, not in Wrexham.

 

[VictoryFC]

RedVee

Guildford seems a bit too small. Just had a look, 66,000 pop. Any team on the south would really have to be in one of the following places: Southampton, Brighton, Portsmouth. I understand local communities and towns have been good for League, but I think any expansion in the south really has to be in a city. And if you were going to look a bit towards the east, perhaps Norwich, Ipswich or Cambridge. Oxford is about as south as south London. London isn't a good example of League working in a city, but Leeds for instance is a great example.

Again though, Plymouth might not be a horrible idea either. Southampton would be the obvious one, but I'm not sure if they have any other stadia outside St Marys.

 

[deluded pom?]

The game was played in Neath, not in Wrexham.

I realise that but take out the opening fixture against Leeds and their attendances are similar to Harlequins who don't have the first year novelty factor that Crusaders do in Wrexham.

 

[Teddyboy]

There was talk for a team in the South West.