Stalled and stagnant Sydney clubs

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Shouldn't those be the new fans we're after mate?

Migrants have kids too mate.

Fact of the matter is less people went to games in 2019 in Sydney and Illawarra than they did in 1994. There's been no growth of the fan base.

I'm comparing the stupidity of including an entirely different city in our totals mate.

The Steelers drew more in our example year of 1994 (11,911) than the Titans did in our example year of 2019 (11,085) lol.

Do you have any evidence those migrants would be RL fans if only the Bears, Magpies, Jets, Tigers, Dragons and Steelers were still around?

We have to include the Steelers in this discussion as they were a standalone team that's now part and parcel of the St George Illawarra Dragons. But if we leave them out then St George Illawarra Dragons still draw better attendances than St George Dragons.

In 1994 the Steelers finished sixth on the premiership ladder and would have made the finals if Balmain defeated Brisbane at the end of the season. The 2019 Titans were duds on and off the field - - they won four games and had a for and against of -281 - - but still drew almost as many fans to their games as the winning Illawarra team from 1994. The all time average for the Steelers was a lowly 8,921 between 1982 and 1998. Gold Coast Titans have averaged 14,696 since 2007.

Magpies, Bears and Jets were less popular than the Steelers based on attendances!

Rugby League Tables / Attendances

Rugby League Tables - NRL Stats & Tables

afltables.com

 

[t-ba]

Do you have any evidence those migrants would be RL fans if only the Bears, Magpies, Tigers, Dragons and Steelers were still around?

We have to include the Steelers in this discussion as they were a standalone team that's now part and parcel of the St George Illawarra Dragons. But if we leave them out then St George Illawarra Dragons still draw better attendances than St George Dragons.

I don't

Do you have an evidence that 1.4 million people who rocked up in 1994 cover the 1.3 million who attended in 2019 for double attendances?

See, the point is I let your stuff slide (like, there's literally no way to prove that claim you made) whilst whenever there's a number you lads don't like you demand evidence.

It's poor form and a shit tactic mate.

In 1994 the Steelers finished sixth on the premiership ladder and would have made the finals if Balmain defeated Brisbane at the end of the season. The 2019 Titans were duds on and off the field, but still drew almost as many fans to their games as the winning Illawarra team from 1994. The all time average for the Steelers was a lowly 8,921 between 1982 and 1998. Gold Coast Titans have averaged 14,696 since 2007.

Excuses excuses mate. Maybe we should compare the Giants-Seagulls to the Steelers as they were contemporary? Fact of the matter is, Titans in 2019 in a city of 500k+ aren't always outdrawing the 1990s Steelers in a city of like 200k at the time lol. Embarrassing

Because uhh...not good!

Magpies, Bears and Jets were less popular than the Steelers based on attendances!

Rugby League Tables / Attendances

Rugby League Tables - NRL Stats & Tables

afltables.com

You're comparing an average attendance over 50 years dude lol. Who would have guessed that attendances were lower before colour TV lol.

For a guy so keen on stats and numbers and figures that's uhh...not good?

 

[Menaiduck]

Yeah, because culling clubs sure has worked in the past lol.

Hot tip mate where do you think a big chunk of those Swannies fans come from?

Disaffected Norths, Newtown and Balmain fans.

And the Waratahs once they started losing. Culling clubs is not the answer. Broadening their support base is.

 

[Perth Red]

Not much you can do about location where clubs decide to play but plenty that can be done about affordability, ko time and scheduling if the nrl had the balls, cost for kids attending (seems the afl caps kids admission at the $5-10 range), things like transport in the ticket etc. but end of day the clubs have to get off their arses and find ways of overcoming the barriers to people attending. There seems little motivation by the clubs to do so which just staggers me. An active fanbase is why they exist!

 

[AdelaideSharky]

Not much you can do about location where clubs decide to play but plenty that can be done about affordability, ko time and scheduling if the nrl had the balls, cost for kids attending (seems the afl caps kids admission at the $5-10 range), things like transport in the ticket etc. but end of day the clubs have to get off their arses and find ways of overcoming the barriers to people attending. There seems little motivation by the clubs to do so which just staggers me. An active fanbase is why they exist!

Not much the clubs can do about kickoff times when the NRL is at the behest of TV broadcasters.

 

[Perth Red]

This is what I mean @Perth Red as to why 10-12 events a year won't work

at $50 an event it’s not on the cheap side for 10-12 occasions but for attending an event it’s not expensive either. I’ll spend at least three times that attending v8’s next week. six times that attending soo in June. So in two events I’ll have spent equivalent of attending 9 nrl games.

the strength of Sydney should be in the fact there’s nine teams all in travelling distance on weekends of each other. The trick is how do we schedule and get reciprocal membership agreements in place so we can benefit from two sets of supporters attending.

souths v tigers had 14.5k there.
there was 60% of the stadium empty.
Maybe if the 10k plus fully ticketed souths member had got in for free there might have been over 20k there.
Maybe if tigers offered free kids admission with paying adult for games at commbank there’s 22k there.
Maybe if there was more promotion and the game day experience was improved there was 25k there. And so it goes.

 

[Menaiduck]

Not much the clubs can do about kickoff times when the NRL is at the behest of TV broadcasters.

The mighty dollar rules over all. Be a bit silly to give up tens of millions of dollars in revenue over a start time.

 

[Iamback]

The mighty dollar rules over all. Be a bit silly to give up tens of millions of dollars in revenue over a start time.

It is the one constant

 

[Perth Red]

The mighty dollar rules over all. Be a bit silly to give up tens of millions of dollars in revenue over a start time.

It’s hard to put the genie back in the bottle but for example this last tv deal there was no extra money offered by ch9 and fox. In that situation the nrl should have said fine, you can have the rights for the same price but we want more control over scheduling or we want to drop the 6pm Friday game.
our rival gets more tv money and still has managed to retain a far more fan attending friendly schedule.

 

[AdelaideSharky]

It’s hard to put the genie back in the bottle but for example this last tv deal there was no extra money offered by ch9 and fox. In that situation the nrl should have said fine, you can have the rights for the same price but we want more control over scheduling or we want to drop the 6pm Friday game.
our rival gets more tv money and still has managed to retain a far more fan attending friendly schedule.

The AFL has a far different fan culture than the NRL does.

Even though the Victorian clubs predominantly play out of the MCG and Marvel Stadium (not counting regional club Geelong) most of those clubs come from suburbs maybe 5 or 10 minutes from each other.

Take Richmond & Melbourne as an example in the former's case their old ground was pretty much a 4-5 minute walk from the MCG. The old VFL was pretty central to each other.

The Sydney NRL clubs are much more spread out.

If for example a Cronulla fan wanted to go to Brookvale to watch the boys play Manly that's a good hour or so by car.

In AFL terms that's like going to watch any of the Melbourne clubs play Geelong at Kardinia Park.

 

[reanimate]

Storm have been privileged like no one else and I've had plenty to say about it over the years, much to the chagrin of their fans. It doesn't change the fact they've done what was considered impossible by building a supporter base in the heart of fumbleball territory.

Victorians now say "rugby league" instead of "rugby" and the club is profitable. That's a win for rugby league and massive blow to onionball, and fumbleball and soccer. Storm are now bigger than the Melbourne Victory!

We can only speculate about how many fans would attend Melbourne Rectangular Arena to see a bottom of the table Storm. Their attendances would take a hit, but by how much is the question. We won't know until it happens, which I hope is sooner than later because I'm sick of them dominating.

Manly choose to base themselves out of Brookvale, despite it being a shithole in a terrible location for travelling fans. That's on the club for being insular and not forward thinking. If they keep doing the same thing then they'll get the same result.

Roosters are investing in the North Shore and Central Coast. Give them 20 years and they'll reap the rewards. It won't happen overnight.

You can look at it like that, or you can look at the fact that Manly pulls numbers not much worse than the Roosters in an old, rundown stadium and see the potential the team has. In terms of strengthening RL in Sydney, a revamped Brookvale with Manly getting higher averages plus the Roosters getting what they get at the SFS is better for the game than pushing Manly to play out of the SFS where they’ll get poor numbers, or folding Manly and getting ~5k people from Northern Sydney to come and see the Roosters play.

The Roosters’ numbers are very average for all of the advantages they have. Any team’s numbers would improve with 20 years of investment on the CC and the North Shore, that’s not some innate advantage only the Roosters have. The main problem with the North Shore is the lack of vision for the area, the Bears need to be permanently removed from any sort of control there and an NRL team given the reigns.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

I don't

Do you have an evidence that 1.4 million people who rocked up in 1994 cover the 1.3 million who attended in 2019 for double attendances?

See, the point is I let your stuff slide (like, there's literally no way to prove that claim you made) whilst whenever there's a number you lads don't like you demand evidence.

It's poor form and a shit tactic mate.



Excuses excuses mate. Maybe we should compare the Giants-Seagulls to the Steelers as they were contemporary? Fact of the matter is, Titans in 2019 in a city of 500k+ aren't always outdrawing the 1990s Steelers in a city of like 200k at the time lol. Embarrassing

Because uhh...not good!



You're comparing an average attendance over 50 years dude lol. Who would have guessed that attendances were lower before colour TV lol.

For a guy so keen on stats and numbers and figures that's uhh...not good?

I never said the 1.4 million people who attended NSWRL games in 1994 covered 1.3 million attendees at NRL games in 2019. What I did say is the cumulative figure is made up of every ticket that's scanned at the turn style, regardless of who is holding it. A season ticketed member who attends 12 games is counted 12 times. If you have 70,000 people with season tickets rocking up 12 times each then they're counted as 840,000 people. The onionballers and soccer mob like to claim more people who live on Earth watch their world cups, based solely on the cumulative viewing figures.

Giants-Seagulls were based in Tweed Heads, which is in NSW.

Townsville has only 180k people yet the Cowboys draw better crowds than many Sydney clubs. Back in the day the Cowboys were pulling 18k to 20k per annum.

 

[t-ba]

I never said the 1.4 million people who attended NSWRL games in 1994 covered 1.3 million attendees at NRL games in 2019. What I did say is the cumulative figure is made up of every ticket that's scanned at the turn style, regardless of who is holding it. A season ticketed member who attends 12 games is counted 12 times. If you have 70,000 people with season tickets rocking up 12 times each then they're counted as 840,000 people. The onionballers and soccer mob like to claim more people who live on Earth watch their world cups, based solely on the cumulative viewing figures.

Giants-Seagulls were based in Tweed Heads, which is in NSW.

Townsville has only 180k people yet the Cowboys draw better crowds than many Sydney clubs. Back in the day the Cowboys were pulling 18k to 20k per annum.

You have no evidence whatsoever that there were more unique attendees in 2019 than 1994 in Sydney. You got figures for season tickets to prove otherwise mate?

Tweed Heads is next to the Gold Coast and part of the same metro area . They're so close to each other the Runway for Gold Coast airport half sits in Tweed Heads lol. It's a clown argument from a dude including Wollongong in his figures for Sydney to not consider it as such. But that's fine, the Chargers average 7k during their time at Carrara.

Townsville does great mate, good on them. Considering that they're the only one being mentioned here methinks they're exception rather than rule lol.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

You can look at it like that, or you can look at the fact that Manly pulls numbers not much worse than the Roosters in an old, rundown stadium and see the potential the team has. In terms of strengthening RL in Sydney, a revamped Brookvale with Manly getting higher averages plus the Roosters getting what they get at the SFS is better for the game than pushing Manly to play out of the SFS where they’ll get poor numbers, or folding Manly and getting ~5k people from Northern Sydney to come and see the Roosters play.

The Roosters’ numbers are very average for all of the advantages they have. Any team’s numbers would improve with 20 years of investment on the CC and the North Shore, that’s not some innate advantage only the Roosters have. The main problem with the North Shore is the lack of vision for the area, the Bears need to be permanently removed from any sort of control there and an NRL team given the reigns.

What you're basically saying is Sydney RL is run by lunatics who don't have a clue and the answer is to let the inmates run the asylum until it farts and shits itself out of existence.

If Manly fans won't travel to the SFS then f**k the team off to NSW Cup. They've won two premierships and been a force since readmission 20 years ago, yet their attendances were better in the 90s. They've obviously lost thousands of older fans to death and health issues and failed to replace them with new fans from the younger generation. If a winning team doesn't appeal to young adults and kids then the team just isn't marketable and needs to go in the bin.

Roosters do have advantages and should be given a few more as their potential is greater than any other side from eastern Sydney. Older fans from their rivals will fight it tooth and nail, but they'll be dead within two or three decades and there aren't enough younger people willing to support these clubs, so let them rant and forget about them. The only solution is to consolidate the dwindling supporter bases of the smaller clubs into the Roosters. If most people from these clubs choose to not support the Roosters then forget them and focus on generating new fans who will. A big, strong, powerful Roosters representing the north, south and east can do this, similar to what the Swans have done. Cronulla will never appeal to anyone outside of Sutherland. Manly is for Manly. St George is on its knees and going backwards. There's question marks over South Sydney when they become also rans.

 

[Menaiduck]

What you're basically saying is Sydney RL is run by lunatics who don't have a clue and the answer is to let the inmates run the asylum until it farts and shits itself out of existence.

If Manly fans won't travel to the SFS then f**k the team off to NSW Cup. They've won two premierships and been a force since readmission 20 years ago, yet their attendances were better in the 90s. They've obviously lost thousands of older fans to death and health issues and failed to replace them with new fans from the younger generation. If a winning team doesn't appeal to young adults and kids then the team just isn't marketable and needs to go in the bin.

Roosters do have advantages and should be given a few more as their potential is greater than any other side from eastern Sydney. Older fans from their rivals will fight it tooth and nail, but they'll be dead within two or three decades and there aren't enough younger people willing to support these clubs, so let them rant and forget about them. The only solution is to consolidate the dwindling supporter bases of the smaller clubs into the Roosters. If most people from these clubs choose to not support the Roosters then forget them and focus on generating new fans who will. A big, strong, powerful Roosters representing the north, south and east can so this, similar to what the Swans have done. Cronulla will never appeal to anyone outside of Sutherland. Manly is for Manly. St George is on its knees and going backwards. There's question marks over South Sydney when they become also rans.

What a load of drivel

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

You have no evidence whatsoever that there were more unique attendees in 2019 than 1994 in Sydney. You got figures for season tickets to prove otherwise mate?

Tweed Heads is next to the Gold Coast and part of the same metro area . They're so close to each other the Runway for Gold Coast airport half sits in Tweed Heads lol. It's a clown argument from a dude including Wollongong in his figures for Sydney to not consider it as such. But that's fine, the Chargers average 7k during their time at Carrara.

Townsville does great mate, good on them. Considering that they're the only one being mentioned here methinks they're exception rather than rule lol.

What makes you think Queenslanders want to support a team from NSW?

I never brought cumulative attendance figures into it. I mentioned attendance averages for teams today vs the pre-NRL era. On this metric my point stands, as games today are generating more revenue from drawing higher attendances per game. An average of 15k in 2022 is better than 5k in 1996. If there's teams still drawing 12k then it says a lot about their viability and proves the supply of teams and games is greater than demand from fans.

A-League were generating decent attendances in Sydney and Melbourne until they oversaturated the market. Now it's back to NSL-style crowds.

 

[Pippen94]

Panthers killing it when it comes to crowds this year. Still ppl here think we should ship them off to Adelaide.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Panthers killing it when it comes to crowds this year. Still ppl here think we should ship them off to Adelaide.

Not me!

I think there's only enough room for one team in Southern Sydney and that Manly need to represent North Shore and Central Coast as well as the Northern Beaches, preferably as North Sydney Sea Eagles, or f**k off so the Roosters can grow into a behemoth that sucks the life out of Swans and onionball. A Roosters averaging 25k or more at the SFS and averaging 200k on Sydney metro TV will do more to draw high end sponsors away from the Swans than the current set up.

 

[AdelaideSharky]

Panthers killing it when it comes to crowds this year. Still ppl here think we should ship them off to Adelaide.

Wouldn't worry too much mate.

It's mainly inbreds from north of the Tweed who think incest is normal who believe Penrith or any Sydney club should be relocated.

They know two parts of f**k all about Sydney.

 

[t-ba]

What makes you think Queenslanders want to support a team from NSW?

What makes you think people from the Lower North Shore would support a side explicitly linked to another part of Sydney? Do you think people from Crowie view themselves the same as someone from Paddington?

Like I said, Chargers, in Queensland, f**king pathetic attendances. lol

I never brought cumulative attendance figures into it. I mentioned attendance averages for teams today vs the pre-NRL era. On this metric my point stands, as games today are generating more revenue from drawing higher attendances per game. An average of 15k in 2022 is better than 5k in 1996. If there's teams still drawing 12k then it says a lot about their viability and proves the supply of teams and games is greater than demand from fans.

I did. And your response about whether or not it's the same people should have some evidence given to it lol. So, how do we know whether or not their were more unique attendees in 2019 than in 1994? Where's your evidence?

Using six rounds of Football as an average is insanely disingenuous mate lol. The last whole season not affected by Covid was 13.5k. You should probably stop that as it's very unserious to do so. Perhaps if you come back in October with the figures we'll see.

A-League were generating decent attendances in Sydney and Melbourne until they oversaturated the market. Now it's back to NSL-style crowds.

A-league's best years for attendances for both Sydney FC and WSW were when the Wanderers were introduced. Attendances started to dip in Sydney around 2017, long after WSW were introduced and before Macarthur were admitted in the time of Roni. The admittance of WSW coincided with an uptick in Sydney FC attendances as can be seen here.



A basic cognisance with facts would be good here mate.