What's new
The Front Row Forums

Register a free account today to become a member of the world's largest Rugby League discussion forum! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Stalled and stagnant Sydney clubs

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,970
What constitutes "hard evidence" mate?
Short answer; hard data.

Long answer; surveys, membership data from the clubs, popularity rate studies from the time would be great, etc, etc. Scientific data that can actually objectively prove yay or nay, instead of air fairy BS that wouldn't even be admissible in court.
If you didn't want anecdotes brought in why did you start with yours?
Because I knew that your only evidence would be "my uncle's mate's friend from the pub's cousin's best friend" and wanted to push the point that even as a Norths fan, whom undeniably knew lots of dyed in the wool, active, Norths fans, I couldn't come up with a single anecdotal case of a person swapping to another sport they had no prior interest in.
Like Junior numbers only recovered from the SL war in the Lower North shore maybe 3 years ago from the mid 1990s. The North Shore Bombers have more adult teams than Lane Cove, Brothers and Willoughby combined. It's gone from one club (North Shore a very long time) having Junior teams to Mosman and Willoughby Auskick both having most age groups in the area.

Like, did this just happen out of thin air?
That doesn't have any baring on Norths fans of the time swapping to AFL. It's literally irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

What that is more indicative of is what happened after the Bears got the arse, i.e. a massive reduction of investment into the promotion of the sport and grassroots funding in the region, no direct pathway to professionalism in the region, and a niche in the market that the NRL left open for competitors to fill (which they did and nobody has ever denied that). But again that wasn't the argument.
 
Last edited:

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,970
First off, bizarre that you've included Wollongong, a city further away from Sydney than the Gold Coast is from Brisbane, but I'll roll with it.
I agree that it's bizarre, but Wollongong and the CC are officially being included in the Sydney Metro region more and more.

Is what it is I guess 🤷‍♂️
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,970
Think that was also due to fans who were opposed to the whole ARL/Super League War jumping on the Swans bandwagon too.

I knew quite a few people in that situation.
So people whom were upset at the commercialisation of RL jumped to the most commercialised sport in the country, both then and now, in protest...

That makes heaps of sense...
 
Messages
14,822
They're at the pointy end of the table mate. Gold Coast and North QLD certainly weren't doing much better than most Sydney clubs before the pandemic.



First off, bizarre that you've included Wollongong, a city further away from Sydney than the Gold Coast is from Brisbane, but I'll roll with it.

In 1994, there were 3.9 million people in Sydney and Wollongong. 1,419,511 people went to regular season games in the region.

In 2019, there were like 5.2 million people in Sydney and Wollongong. 1,299,296 people went to regular season games in the region. Now I'm no rocket surgeon but that seems like less to me despite a near 30% increase in the population!
What were the average attendances?

It's fair to say that many of those 1,419,511 attendees were the same people being counted each time they went through the turn styles. If you go to 10 games a year you get counted 10 times. There were more teams in Sydney back then so more games were played. The average attendance for each game was lower in 1994.

I brought up the Steelers because their crowds were tiny. The merger between Dragons and Steelers improved attendances at Wollongong. No one will convince me that the game is poorer without the Steelers. Bears, Magpies and Tigers were on death's door by the end of the 90s.
 

t-ba

Post Whore
Messages
60,210
What were the average attendances?

It's fair to say that many of those 1,419,511 attendees were the same people being counted each time they went through the turn styles. If you go to 10 games a year you get counted 10 times. There were more teams in Sydney back then so more games were played. The average attendance for each game was lower in 1994.

1994
Aggregate: 1,419,511
Games: 118 games
Average attendance: 12,029
Adjusted for 2019 population: 16,038

2019:
Aggregate: 1,299,296
Games: 96
Average Attendance: 13,534

Considering the population growth that's a terrible outcome mate lol.

I brought up the Steelers because their crowds were tiny. The merger between Dragons and Steelers improved attendances at Wollongong. No one will convince me that the game is poorer without the Steelers. Bears, Magpies and Tigers were on death's door by the end of the 90s.

Souths were dead in 1999. More dead than any of those clubs except maybe Balmain.

How'd that turn out?

Norths had the year from hell. Basically needed a bailout like the Titans got a few years back but were just unlucky enough (well, stupid) to need a bailout in late 1999. They're fine. They're pretty financial these days.

As for Illawarra, who knows. It's a separate city to Sydney. We could merge the Titans and the Broncos and they'd get better crowds at Cbus but whether that would be good or not is a different question.
 
Last edited:

Pippen94

First Grade
Messages
7,545
I'm a Bears fan and I've never seen any hard evidence that that's actually the case. Even anecdotally I can't think of a single person whom suddenly became a fan of another sport after the merger that didn't already have an interest in that sport before.

Frankly the assertion that fans of the club's that were rationalised make/made up the bulk of Swans and/or Waratahs fans is just media speculation that's been repeated so much that it became "tru

Nobody knows Sydney better than ppl from Canberra
 

AdelaideSharky

Juniors
Messages
982
Nobody knows Sydney better than ppl from Canberra
That's exactly what I was going to say.

I saw another thread from another RL forum about the very same things discussed as we are now in here and lo and behold the same merkin from Canberra who has never lived in Sydney in his life is trying to tell people from Sydney who actually lived there at the period in question that he knows their city better than they do despite never living there.

The bloke is a bonafide piece of shit.
 
Last edited:

AdelaideSharky

Juniors
Messages
982
Storm have developed a strong following in fumbleball HQ. Plenty of kids turn up to Melbourne Rectangular Arena to watch the Storm. The club is ahead of most Sydney clubs.

Crowds and TV ratings for Sydney's NRL clubs are better today than there were when the Bears, Magpies, Tigers, Dragons and Steelers were around.
That's because for the vast majority of Melbourne's existence they've been bankrolled by Rupert Murdoch's News Corporation which controls 90% of this country's media and have pretty much parked themselves in the top four/top eight bar the 2001 & 2002 seasons before Craig Bellamy rode into town.

Plus it's not really a secret Melbourne's crowds shot up since 2007 when arguably the best stadium in the country in AAMI Park was completed.

If the Storm spent a few seasons in the cellar like everyone else has at varying times it's an absolute certainty they'd be flat out getting 10K to their games.
 

reanimate

Bench
Messages
3,878
If that's the case then we need less teams in Sydney playing out of suburban grounds. Swans don't have a problem drawing 30k to the SCG. Roosters could become a big team within a generation or two if they didn't have competition from Manly, South Sydney, St George and Cronulla.
Roosters are centrally located in one of the best RL stadiums in the country, well run, successful and well promoted, yet their support and crowds aren’t that much better than some of the teams you named. If Manly had the stadium and transport links the Roosters have, we’d be getting better numbers than them.
 
Messages
14,817
Went to the Tigers v Rabbits game last night.

6 tickets $160
Parking $60 at stadium (2 cars)
A drink each and 3 packets of crisps close to $60
2 more drinks $12
45 minutes to get our car park.
Almost $300 to go to a game of footy in Sydney.
And people wonder why people don’t go, or only go on a long weekend.
Meanwhile you can get Foxtel for $100 a month and get 32 matches a month, but a case of beer and pizzas and not have to travel or battle any of the weather conditions.
If some on here hadn’t noticed over the past two years, the NRL could easily play all games out of one city and a couple of stadia and f**k off crowds/paying fans and become a purely TV product and most peoples lives would go in and they’d still love their footy.

Plus the puerile name calling in here is pathetic.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
70,429
At least the tickets were cheap lol
don’t tickets include public transport in Sydney like they do here for sports events?
Sounds like it cost you $50 each person. Not cheap but not ridiculous And could have probably done itfor nearer $35 per person by sound of it if you’d Parked off site and taken some crisps with you.

great example though of why there should be reciprocal membership agreements. Plenty of capacity to let souths fully ticketed members in for free in return for tigers members getting same at return fixture. That would have brought cost down to half what you paid, if you are a member.
 
Last edited:

AdelaideSharky

Juniors
Messages
982
Went to the Tigers v Rabbits game last night.

6 tickets $160
Parking $60 at stadium (2 cars)
A drink each and 3 packets of crisps close to $60
2 more drinks $12
45 minutes to get our car park.
Almost $300 to go to a game of footy in Sydney.
And people wonder why people don’t go, or only go on a long weekend.
Meanwhile you can get Foxtel for $100 a month and get 32 matches a month, but a case of beer and pizzas and not have to travel or battle any of the weather conditions.
If some on here hadn’t noticed over the past two years, the NRL could easily play all games out of one city and a couple of stadia and f**k off crowds/paying fans and become a purely TV product and most peoples lives would go in and they’d still love their footy.

Plus the puerile name calling in here is pathetic.
That's what people who've never lived in Sydney don't understand.

Why anyone would fork out $300 to go to a game when they can get all the games on Foxtel/Kayo for a fraction of the price in the warmth and comfort of their own homes?

Plus there's the small matter of Sydney having two of the wettest autumns in history.

I came back last year when the first floods hit and I went to the Sharks vs Raiders game at Kogarah and sat in the pouring rain for 80 mins.

Simple fact is with the huge costs and the current weather nobody in their right mind would be going to games.
 

AdelaideSharky

Juniors
Messages
982
At least the tickets were cheap lol
don’t tickets include public transport in Sydney like they do here for sports events?
Sounds like it cost you $50 each person. Not cheap but not ridiculous And could have probably done itfor nearer $35 per person by sound of it if you’d Parked off site and taken some crisps with you.

great example though of why there should be reciprocal membership agreements. Plenty of capacity to let souths fully ticketed members in for free in return for tigers members getting same at return fixture. That would have brought cost down to half what you paid, if you are a member.
Nope the only time I've seen public transport included in match tickets was Sydney Swans games when they played at Homebush back in the day.
 

Iamback

Referee
Messages
20,807
Went to the Tigers v Rabbits game last night.

6 tickets $160
Parking $60 at stadium (2 cars)
A drink each and 3 packets of crisps close to $60
2 more drinks $12
45 minutes to get our car park.
Almost $300 to go to a game of footy in Sydney.
And people wonder why people don’t go, or only go on a long weekend.
Meanwhile you can get Foxtel for $100 a month and get 32 matches a month, but a case of beer and pizzas and not have to travel or battle any of the weather conditions.
If some on here hadn’t noticed over the past two years, the NRL could easily play all games out of one city and a couple of stadia and f**k off crowds/paying fans and become a purely TV product and most peoples lives would go in and they’d still love their footy.

Plus the puerile name calling in here is pathetic.

This is what I mean @Perth Red as to why 10-12 events a year won't work
 

Iamback

Referee
Messages
20,807
That's what people who've never lived in Sydney don't understand.

Why anyone would fork out $300 to go to a game when they can get all the games on Foxtel/Kayo for a fraction of the price in the warmth and comfort of their own homes?

Plus there's the small matter of Sydney having two of the wettest autumns in history.

I came back last year when the first floods hit and I went to the Sharks vs Raiders game at Kogarah and sat in the pouring rain for 80 mins.

Simple fact is with the huge costs and the current weather nobody in their right mind would be going to games.

I go to every home game because I live close.

Next year is the game changer. Won't have lower grades so without some sort of pre or post match entertainment I won't go regularly.

Maybe 5-6 stand out games. Home and away though
 
Messages
14,817
At least the tickets were cheap lol
don’t tickets include public transport in Sydney like they do here for sports events?
Sounds like it cost you $50 each person. Not cheap but not ridiculous And could have probably done itfor nearer $35 per person by sound of it if you’d Parked off site and taken some crisps with you.

great example though of why there should be reciprocal membership agreements. Plenty of capacity to let souths fully ticketed members in for free in return for tigers members getting same at return fixture. That would have brought cost down to half what you paid, if you are a member.
Souths only reciprocal game is against the Bulldogs.
A couple of years ago we had 2-3 reciprocal games so membership season tickets were well worth it. We still get season tickets but getting to away games is getting more expensive.

The free public transport finished up 4-5 years ago too. Which was a shame. We had to take two cars as we had two older people with us. On the street parking is available but Para Leagues def made a nice little bumper at $30 per car.
 
Messages
14,817
I think the argument is that cost of games is what hurts fans going. I know probably a couple hundred footy fans that watch tv but rarely go to a game. Some never. I know a lot of them will watch 4-8 games a weekend purely because they’re comfy watching it on tv. They’re no less fans of the game but they aren’t in the stands.

I’m an outlier - I go to all the Souths home Olympic Park games and the reciprocal game there.

Then juggling kids - school nights, sports and commitments - gone from 6-8 away games per year (including Newcastle, Canberra and Wollongong) to a select few here and there based on schedules.

I do attend neutral games on weekends when Souths are interstate or go watch Newtown at Henson or maybe a Norths game.

In essence it still boils down to cost, schedule, transport/parking, weather and form. Same as it has been for a hundred years. But that doesn’t mean we don’t try to make the game better.
 
Messages
14,822
1994
Aggregate: 1,419,511
Games: 118 games
Average attendance: 12,029
Adjusted for 2019 population: 16,038

2019:
Aggregate: 1,299,296
Games: 96
Average Attendance: 13,534

Considering the population growth that's a terrible outcome mate lol.



Souths were dead in 1999. More dead than any of those clubs except maybe Balmain.

How'd that turn out?

Norths had the year from hell. Basically needed a bailout like the Titans got a few years back but were just unlucky enough (well, stupid) to need a bailout in late 1999. They're fine. They're pretty financial these days.

As for Illawarra, who knows. It's a separate city to Sydney. We could merge the Titans and the Broncos and they'd get better crowds at Cbus but whether that would be good or not is a different question.
I think you know most of the population growth has come from immigration. Most immigrants aren't RL fans.

You're comparing Broncos to Dragons?

Since when did the Dragons draw similar attendances and revenue to the Broncos?

Titans draw better attendances than the Steelers.
 

t-ba

Post Whore
Messages
60,210
I think you know most of the population growth has come from immigration. Most immigrants aren't RL fans.

You're comparing Broncos to Dragons?

Since when did the Dragons draw similar attendances and revenue to the Broncos?

Titans draw better attendances than the Steelers.


Shouldn't those be the new fans we're after mate?

Migrants have kids too mate.

Fact of the matter is less people went to games in 2019 in Sydney and Illawarra than they did in 1994. There's been no growth of the fan base.

I'm comparing the stupidity of including an entirely different city in our totals mate.

The Steelers drew more in our example year of 1994 (11,911) than the Titans did in our example year of 2019 (11,085) lol.
 
Messages
14,822
That's because for the vast majority of Melbourne's existence they've been bankrolled by Rupert Murdoch's News Corporation which controls 90% of this country's media and have pretty much parked themselves in the top four/top eight bar the 2001 & 2002 seasons before Craig Bellamy rode into town.

Plus it's not really a secret Melbourne's crowds shot up since 2007 when arguably the best stadium in the country in AAMI Park was completed.

If the Storm spent a few seasons in the cellar like everyone else has at varying times it's an absolute certainty they'd be flat out getting 10K to their games.
Storm have been privileged like no one else and I've had plenty to say about it over the years, much to the chagrin of their fans. It doesn't change the fact they've done what was considered impossible by building a supporter base in the heart of fumbleball territory.

Victorians now say "rugby league" instead of "rugby" and the club is profitable. That's a win for rugby league and massive blow to onionball, and fumbleball and soccer. Storm are now bigger than the Melbourne Victory!

We can only speculate about how many fans would attend Melbourne Rectangular Arena to see a bottom of the table Storm. Their attendances would take a hit, but by how much is the question. We won't know until it happens, which I hope is sooner than later because I'm sick of them dominating.
Roosters are centrally located in one of the best RL stadiums in the country, well run, successful and well promoted, yet their support and crowds aren’t that much better than some of the teams you named. If Manly had the stadium and transport links the Roosters have, we’d be getting better numbers than them.
Manly choose to base themselves out of Brookvale, despite it being a shithole in a terrible location for travelling fans. That's on the club for being insular and not forward thinking. If they keep doing the same thing then they'll get the same result.

Roosters are investing in the North Shore and Central Coast. Give them 20 years and they'll reap the rewards. It won't happen overnight.
 

Latest posts

Top