Stalled and stagnant Sydney clubs

[AdelaideSharky]

What makes you think people from the Lower North Shore would support a side explicitly linked to another part of Sydney? Do you think people from Crowie view themselves the same as someone from Paddington?

Like I said, Chargers, in Queensland, f**king pathetic attendances. lol



I did. And your response about whether or not it's the same people should have some evidence given to it lol. So, how do we know whether or not their were more unique attendees in 2019 than in 1994? Where's your evidence?

Using six rounds of Football as an average is insanely disingenuous mate lol. The last whole season not affected by Covid was 13.5k. You should probably stop that as it's very unserious to do so. Perhaps if you come back in October with the figures we'll see.



A-league's best years for attendances for both Sydney FC and WSW were when the Wanderers were introduced. Attendances started to dip in Sydney around 2017, long after WSW were introduced and before Macarthur were admitted in the time of Roni. The admittance of WSW coincided with an uptick in Sydney FC attendances as can be seen here.

View attachment 60672

A basic cognisance with facts would be good here mate.

A-League's crowd problems started when the FFA failed to back the fans in the wake of that infamous late Bourbon Becky police shame file.

A lot of fans washed their hands of the league after that.

 

[Perth Red]

Panthers killing it when it comes to crowds this year. Still ppl here think we should ship them off to Adelaide.

Problem is maintaining it, they had a positive blip last time they had a good team in 03 and 04 but it soon returned to the sub 12k range And stayed there.
The stadium gives them a great opportunity to keep the momentum going but as cowboys are showing it offers no guarantee. hopefully they can make the most of the opportunity with some creative fan engagement strategies When the new stadium opens.

 

[t-ba]

Problem is maintaining it, they had a positive blip last time they had a good team in 03 and 04 but it soon returned to the sub 12k range And stayed there.
The stadium gives them a great opportunity to keep the momentum going but as cowboys are showing it offers no guarantee. hopefully they can make the most of the opportunity with some creative fan engagement strategies When the new stadium opens.

Wow, form plays a result in crowds?

Huh, I wonder if there's a Storm sized Elephant in the room with that argument...

 

[Perth Red]

Wow, form plays a result in crowds?

Huh, I wonder if there's a Storm sized Elephant in the room with that argument...

Of course it does but the goal is to lose less than the 40% of the crowd panthers lost last time! Ideally if you can make it more than just the final result then the drop off isnt so significant.

 

[Pippen94]

Problem is maintaining it, they had a positive blip last time they had a good team in 03 and 04 but it soon returned to the sub 12k range And stayed there.
The stadium gives them a great opportunity to keep the momentum going but as cowboys are showing it offers no guarantee. hopefully they can make the most of the opportunity with some creative fan engagement strategies When the new stadium opens.

Teams that represent large growing areas like Panthers & Tigers should never be in conversation for relocation. Afl only moved inner city clubs representing tiny built areas like Fitzroy & South Melbourne.

 

[Pippen94]

Wow, form plays a result in crowds?

Huh, I wonder if there's a Storm sized Elephant in the room with that argument...

Storm & swans never have losing seasons for some reason - ha

 

[AdelaideSharky]

Storm & swans never have losing seasons for some reason - ha

Wouldn't go that far.

I vividly remember the Swans dark years of the early 90's.

 

[Pippen94]

Wouldn't go that far.

I vividly remember the Swans dark years of the early 90's.

Afl haven't let that happen since. Lions made 4 straight grand finals but when they started losing needed to be bailed out regardless

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

What makes you think people from the Lower North Shore would support a side explicitly linked to another part of Sydney? Do you think people from Crowie view themselves the same as someone from Paddington?

Like I said, Chargers, in Queensland, f**king pathetic attendances. lol



I did. And your response about whether or not it's the same people should have some evidence given to it lol. So, how do we know whether or not their were more unique attendees in 2019 than in 1994? Where's your evidence?

Using six rounds of Football as an average is insanely disingenuous mate lol. The last whole season not affected by Covid was 13.5k. You should probably stop that as it's very unserious to do so. Perhaps if you come back in October with the figures we'll see.



A-league's best years for attendances for both Sydney FC and WSW were when the Wanderers were introduced. Attendances started to dip in Sydney around 2017, long after WSW were introduced and before Macarthur were admitted in the time of Roni. The admittance of WSW coincided with an uptick in Sydney FC attendances as can be seen here.

View attachment 60672

A basic cognisance with facts would be good here mate.

I never said anything about fans from 1994 being the same people as 2019, other than pointing out that Manly's declining attendances indicate they've lost more fans than they've gained over that period. Manly have enjoyed on field success throughout both eras. Manly fans who were in their 30s and 40s in 1994 would be in their 60s and 70s now. Some of them would be dead. Others would be too ill to regularly attend matches. I don't need to provide any evidence to prove this as it's a natural part of the ageing process and no one is immune to it. Fans who were in their 50s back then are now too old to attend. Any decline in attendance is down to youngsters not replacing older fans in significant numbers. That shows there's just not enough demand for the content.

The Sydney FC vs WSW decline is what you would expect after the initial excitement wore off. It doesn't change the fact attendances for Sydney FC and Melbourne Victory have fallen off a cliff since new teams were introduced, with f**k all people turning up to watch Macarthur, Western United and Melbourne Heart / City.

Where did I use the average of just six rounds of football?

I compared the average attendances for the modern era vs the NSWRL/ARL days.

Crowds for Sydney teams over the last 20 years are better than they were during the NRL/ARL era.

Rugby League Tables / Attendances

Rugby League Tables - NRL Stats & Tables

afltables.com

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Teams that represent large growing areas like Panthers & Tigers should never be in conversation for relocation. Afl only moved inner city clubs representing tiny built areas like Fitzroy & South Melbourne.

I agree with you 100% on this. It's why I've often touted the Bulldogs and one of Sharks or Dragons for relocation, as they're getting in the way of other clubs. Manly is a contender for the boot because they've refused to represent a large area, despite having the best part of 20 years to make the North Shore and Central Coast their own.

 

[t-ba]

I never said anything about fans from 1994 being the same people as 2019, other than pointing out that Manly's declining attendances indicate they've lost more fans than they've gained over that period. Manly have enjoyed on field success throughout both eras. Manly fans who were in their 30s and 40s in 1994 would be in their 60s and 70s now. Some of them would be dead. Others would be too ill to regularly attend matches. I don't need to provide any evidence to prove this as it's a natural part of the ageing process and no one is immune to it. Fans who were in their 50s back then are now too old to attend. Any decline in attendance is down to youngsters not replacing older fans in significant numbers. That shows there's just not enough demand for the content.

I am not talking about the same people mate.

Unique attendees. The culminative total of individual people who attended at least one match.

It's not about the same fans. It's about the number of fans.

Also, the Cowboys drew 20k in 1995 and 13k in 2019. Seems like their fans must be dying too.

The Sydney FC vs WSW decline is what you would expect after the initial excitement wore off. It doesn't change the fact attendances for Sydney FC and Melbourne Victory have fallen off a cliff since new teams were introduced, with f**k all people turning up to watch Macarthur, Western United and Melbourne Heart / City.

They both recorded record averages in those years mate lol. Sydney FC were drawing sub 10k before the WSW came and have never come close to plumbing those depths since lol.

Macarthur have not played in a non Covid year. First season was literally in the thick of it lol. They're a useless point of comparison.

Where did I use the average of just six rounds of football?

I compared the average attendances for the modern era vs the NSWRL/ARL days.

Crowds for Sydney teams over the last 20 years are better than they were during the NRL/ARL era.

Rugby League Tables / Attendances

Rugby League Tables - NRL Stats & Tables

afltables.com

So 15k v 5k is in reference to what exactly then brother.

Aggregate crowd or Sydney teams is far down on what it was in 1994 mate and barely ahead of what it was in 1994 on averages (around 10%). Remember that site doesn't distinguish from home games played out of venue so Magic round skews tons of those figures. You literally have to count ground by ground dude for it to be useful.

 

[siv]

I'm a Bears fan and I've never seen any hard evidence that that's actually the case. Even anecdotally I can't think of a single person whom suddenly became a fan of another sport after the merger that didn't already have an interest in that sport before.

Frankly the assertion that fans of the club's that were rationalised make/made up the bulk of Swans and/or Waratahs fans is just media speculation that's been repeated so much that it became "true".

Thats because before the SL war everyone followed multiple sports

You had your RL team, your AFL team, some even had a rugby team plus you followed national teams

A lot of these people would also go to their 10 to 12 events each year

 

[Menaiduck]

I am not talking about the same people mate.

Unique attendees. The culminative total of individual people who attended at least one match.

It's not about the same fans. It's about the number of fans.

Also, the Cowboys drew 20k in 1995 and 13k in 2019. Seems like their fans must be dying too.



They both recorded record averages in those years mate lol. Sydney FC were drawing sub 10k before the WSW came and have never come close to plumbing those depths since lol.

Macarthur have not played in a non Covid year. First season was literally in the thick of it lol. They're a useless point of comparison.



So 15k v 5k is in reference to what exactly then brother.

Aggregate crowd or Sydney teams is far down on what it was in 1994 mate and barely ahead of what it was in 1994 on averages (around 10%). Remember that site doesn't distinguish from home games played out of venue so Magic round skews tons of those figures. You literally have to count ground by ground dude for it to be useful.

As mark Twain once wrote ‘there are lies, more lies and damned statistics’. No point comparing apples with oranges

 

[Wb1234]

I agree with you 100% on this. It's why I've often touted the Bulldogs and one of Sharks or Dragons for relocation, as they're getting in the way of other clubs. Manly is a contender for the boot because they've refused to represent a large area, despite having the best part of 20 years to make the North Shore and Central Coast their own.

No offence but calling for manly to get relocated is really stupid

 

[Wb1234]

The AFL has a far different fan culture than the NRL does.

Even though the Victorian clubs predominantly play out of the MCG and Marvel Stadium (not counting regional club Geelong) most of those clubs come from suburbs maybe 5 or 10 minutes from each other.

Take Richmond & Melbourne as an example in the former's case their old ground was pretty much a 4-5 minute walk from the MCG. The old VFL was pretty central to each other.

The Sydney NRL clubs are much more spread out.

If for example a Cronulla fan wanted to go to Brookvale to watch the boys play Manly that's a good hour or so by car.

In AFL terms that's like going to watch any of the Melbourne clubs play Geelong at Kardinia Park.

I’m sure part of the difference in average crowds is also afl has cheaper ticket prices on average than the nrl

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

I am not talking about the same people mate.

Unique attendees. The culminative total of individual people who attended at least one match.

It's not about the same fans. It's about the number of fans.

Also, the Cowboys drew 20k in 1995 and 13k in 2019. Seems like their fans must be dying too.



They both recorded record averages in those years mate lol. Sydney FC were drawing sub 10k before the WSW came and have never come close to plumbing those depths since lol.

Macarthur have not played in a non Covid year. First season was literally in the thick of it lol. They're a useless point of comparison.



So 15k v 5k is in reference to what exactly then brother.

Aggregate crowd or Sydney teams is far down on what it was in 1994 mate and barely ahead of what it was in 1994 on averages (around 10%). Remember that site doesn't distinguish from home games played out of venue so Magic round skews tons of those figures. You literally have to count ground by ground dude for it to be useful.

Mate, you're making no sense. You keep bringing up aggregate crowds for no other reason than there were more matches played in Sydney 1994 than today due to it having more clubs back then, hence the larger number. The cumulative attendance for 1994 and 2019 don't give us a clue how many unique people attended an NRL game. That's the point I've been trying to get through to you. Average attendances are meaningful because they allow us to see how much demand there is for NRL games.

There were a few Sydney clubs averaging about 5k per season back in the mid 90s. We no longer have Sydney teams averaging 5k per year. They now range from 12k to about 15k, which is respectable. You can spin this however you like, but it proves the teams are more stable these days than they were 25 to 30 years ago.

Balmain, Wests, Norths and St George weren't drawing big crowds on a regular basis. Souths were as low as 5k at one point. I've provided you with a link to RL Attendances. Use it. See for yourself.

A-League crowds have been down around NSL levels this year and it's not all due to COVID-19 restrictions. TV ratings have also been putrid. People just aren't interested any more. If a club is getting 3k a game at a stadium that can fit 20k this year then it's not because only 3k were allowed into the ground. It's because people aren't turning up.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

No offence but calling for manly to get relocated is really stupid

If their fanbase continues to decline despite having on field success then yes, they should be relocated. Especially if they insist on serving no more than a small pocket of supporters from a tiny stretch of land on the Northern Beaches. A club with a limited geographic footprint is a waste of a licence when we've got Brisbane 3, NZ 2 and Perth fighting for a team. Easts Tigers would cover all of eastern Brisbane plus Logan and Redlands and have the resources to dwarf most Sydney clubs. There's around 1 million people in their region.

 

[Wb1234]

If their fanbase continues to decline despite having on field success then yes, they should be relocated. Especially if they insist on serving no more than a small pocket of supporters from a tiny stretch of land on the Northern Beaches. A club with a limited geographic footprint is a waste of a licence when we've got Brisbane 3, NZ 2 and Perth fighting for a team. Easts Tigers would cover all of eastern Brisbane plus Logan and Redlands and have the resources to dwarf most Sydney clubs. There's around 1 million people in their region.

So first the bears get kicked out

then manly

heck why not Newcastle too then we can have no nrl club from north of the harbour bridge all the way up to the Gold Coast

they have a billionaire owner, new ground getting done and a rich history. They ain’t going anywhere. No Sydney club will be relocated

the only thing that will happen is dragons move most of their games to the gong and tigers to Campbelltown

 

[reanimate]

What you're basically saying is Sydney RL is run by lunatics who don't have a clue and the answer is to let the inmates run the asylum until it farts and shits itself out of existence.

When it comes to the North Shore, that’s basically the status quo.

If Manly fans won't travel to the SFS then f**k the team off to NSW Cup. They've won two premierships and been a force since readmission 20 years ago, yet their attendances were better in the 90s. They've obviously lost thousands of older fans to death and health issues and failed to replace them with new fans from the younger generation. If a winning team doesn't appeal to young adults and kids then the team just isn't marketable and needs to go in the bin.

The Roosters’ fans are barely travelling to the SCG, why not f**k them off to the NSW Cup if they’re not willing to put up with a few years of a shit stadium?

Manly’s crowd numbers aren’t great, however we have massive potential for growth if we get our stadium upgraded. The Roosters have been playing out of a quality modern stadium for decades and have not a lot to show for it.

Roosters do have advantages and should be given a few more as their potential is greater than any other side from eastern Sydney. Older fans from their rivals will fight it tooth and nail, but they'll be dead within two or three decades and there aren't enough younger people willing to support these clubs, so let them rant and forget about them. The only solution is to consolidate the dwindling supporter bases of the smaller clubs into the Roosters. If most people from these clubs choose to not support the Roosters then forget them and focus on generating new fans who will. A big, strong, powerful Roosters representing the north, south and east can do this, similar to what the Swans have done. Cronulla will never appeal to anyone outside of Sutherland. Manly is for Manly. St George is on its knees and going backwards. There's question marks over South Sydney when they become also rans.

The Roosters have massive advantages and they’ve done barely anything with them. The growth of AFL in the Eastern Suburbs has occurred right under their noses and you want them to be the stewards of the game for the whole of Northern and Southern Sydney too? They have it all, a quality all-seater stadium which they’ve had for decades, success and rich and powerful backers. What do they have to show for it in terms of the metrics you’re talking about? An average that’s not much better than teams playing out of suburban crapshacks.

Maybe there’s merit for rationalisation in Sydney’s south, however it’s already been done in the north. What needs to be done now is to get the whole of Northern Sydney to reach its potential. The way to do that is not to give over the bulk of Sydney to the Roosters. They haven’t done a good job with what they have now, despite all their advantages.

 

[Menaiduck]

No offence but calling for manly to get relocated is really stupid

There are plenty of viable solutions to this alleged over abundance of Sydney clubs. And they don’t require relocation interstate.

So first the bears get kicked out

then manly

heck why not Newcastle too then we can have no nrl club from north of the harbour bridge all the way up to the Gold Coast

they have a billionaire owner, new ground getting done and a rich history. They ain’t going anywhere. No Sydney club will be relocated

the only thing that will happen is dragons move most of their games to the gong and tigers to Campbelltown

that’s the point. There is no agenda and no momentum to move clubs so the discussion is pointless. For those who don’t know Cronulla have virtually taken over the st George junior comp. Only about 50 teams under 12 still play in the st George comp. The rest are playing in the huge and growing Cronulla comp. A move to the gong by st george is logical and gives them access to a massive junior nursery for themselves and leaves the southern region to the sharks. Manly, no doubt, need to position themselves as the club north of the bridge and show a bit more ambition about this. These things will happen in time as they make sense. A lot more sense than ripping another club a part.