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Stalled and stagnant Sydney clubs

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,960
Dumb argument. Ponga was born in Port Headland but I wouldn't claim him as WA jnr! Cleary started playing RL in NZ so guess he's not really a Panthers Jnr product? This whole jnr development thing is nonsense anyway. Who cares where you played U8's? Its where you came through from 15/16 in the elite programs and which team you debut for that matters in reality. That shows who has the best scouting, pathways and development programs.
Jnr participation rates are the domain of the State body and ARLC.
Even that doesn't matter so long as the best talent is finding it's way into the NRL.

The whole system in the NRL is an archaic relic of the past. If we were serious junior development would have been taken almost completely out of the pro-club's hands decades ago.
 
Messages
14,792
It is disingenuous to suggest the AFL don’t want less teams in Melbourne.

Sydney was a relocation because in the early 80s, you couldn’t play league football on Sundays in Melbourne. That way the dead team got moved to Sydney and they could televise a live game in to Melbourne. Smart move. But clubs didn’t like the travel.

Many AFL supporters in SA and WA argued putting a team in to the AFL was going to kill the local WAFL and SANFL, paralleling the arguments in Illawarra, Newcastle and Brisbane that their local comp would suffer. Some still argue that. Argue their best youngsters get drafted and shafted to Sydney or Brisbane/Gold Coast.

Hawthorn and Melbourne looked to merge in mid 90s much like Easts and Saints. The mid 90s professional era had begun and clubs were caught out trying to keep up. There was much anguish over it. The reemergence of Hawthorn mirrors Easts in the past two decades.

North Melbourne mirror South Sydney except Norths were nomadic for a while in Sydney, Canberra and Gold Coast, before getting themselves in order off field. Souths got turfed, fought back and returned.

Fitzroy we’re all but dead as were the Brisbane Bears and the merger worked, as long as the AFL bankrolled it. Once the glow finished, it was back to shit again though recently the Lions have bounced back. Both Wests and Saints have had a lean decade with their mergers. Get the collective shit together and they’ll be big.

The AFL play games in Tasmania, taking advantage of a market while dilly dallying over expansion in that state. Sounds like RL in Adelaide, Perth and Southern NZ.

The AFL really only have Tasmania to expand to, and that’ll be a team like a Cowboys. They play the long game but eventually the dollars will stop and hard decisions will have to be made.

The NRL have Adelaide, Perth and NZ2 to look at with Pacific/PNG pipelines to nurture.
They also have to decide on having a truly independent commission, expansion and junior development, fan engagement etc.
They also need to make sure the Sydney teams represent strong fan and membership bases and ask what they represent because at the moment the brands are great but would one of those brands be better suited in another market? If WT weren’t in the comp are we truly going to say the junior comps out there will die and the talent won’t go to their clubs?
 
Messages
14,822
Only issue with that logic is where were the Cowboys fans when they were stone motherless last until Canterbury shit the bed and offloaded Johnathan Thurston in favour of Brent Sherwin leading Thurston to move to the Cows, same with Melbourne a club that has predominantly been parked in the top four for 22 of the 24 years it has been in the competition?
This is arguably the dumbest and most ignorant post on this forum.

Cowboys pulled some of their largest crowds in their first six years, despite collecting three wooden spoons during this period.

Cowboys rarely finish inside the top four. In 2007 we finished third. In 2015 and 2016 we finished fourth. That's three times since 1995. To same the Cowboys are "same as Melbourne" is just plain dumb.
 
Messages
14,822
Easts and Manly are an easy answer, their areas are the traditional home of rugby union. Most people in the eastern suburbs and North Shore/Northern Beaches are more than likely to attend their local Shute Shield club than anywhere else.

Both Easts and Manly do quite well for themselves being rugby union heartland.

Plus unlike Melbourne and North Queensland they don't have virtually the entire state to themselves.

And ffs like others have pointed out to your other fellow interstaters just shut the f**k up, you don't live in Sydney, nor lived in Sydney (like I did for the vast majority of my life) so don't gob off telling Sydneysiders how to deal with Sydney issues.

North Queensland has about 500k people spread out over a vast area that dwarfs European countries. Townsville has about 180k people.

The NRL is a national competition. When 9 one its 16 clubs are based in Sydney and pulling diabolical crowds and TV ratings then it impacts RL across the country, thus entitling all RL fans to point out that Sydney cannot support so many teams. There are cities unrepresented because we've got so many teams in Sydney. If we want the game to grow then we'll need to trim the fat.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
70,176
Top 5 most popular teams by memberships

1. Eels
2. Souths
3. Storm
4. Broncos
5. Raiders

where's all these popular Sydney clubs we've been hearing about on here? lol
 
Messages
14,822
where you getting $100mill assets from?
The amount of beer bottles their fans leave around Sutherland. At 10 cents a bottle when recycled and so many crazy pissheads in the joint it adds up quite quickly. The work on the Leagues Club is all about having a place to store the 10 million tallies. 😜
 

Colk

First Grade
Messages
6,750
Easts and Manly are an easy answer, their areas are the traditional home of rugby union. Most people in the eastern suburbs and North Shore/Northern Beaches are more than likely to attend their local Shute Shield club than anywhere else.

Both Easts and Manly do quite well for themselves being rugby union heartland.

Plus unlike Melbourne and North Queensland they don't have virtually the entire state to themselves.

And ffs like others have pointed out to your other fellow interstaters just shut the f**k up, you don't live in Sydney, nor lived in Sydney (like I did for the vast majority of my life) so don't gob off telling Sydneysiders how to deal with Sydney issues.

1. No they don’t go well. We are talking about teams that have memberships of 15k or thereabouts which is very poor; particularly when they have had such success. Easts attendances in particular have always been poor, hence why they often get ridiculed for having no supporters.

Both clubs could do that a lot more to engage with the North Shore up to Central Coast but they don’t because they are happy to do as little as possible and traditionalists are happy with that situation as well. Anyway, if traditionalists are happy with the memberships and supporter bases of those two clubs, then fine but don’t stand in the way of bigger markets using the risible excuse that they can’t get the same support as Sydney sides, when the benchmark is so low.

2. North Queensland isn’t a state. Nevertheless you are agreeing with me that there are bigger markets and clubs that are more important in the whole scheme of things

3. I used to live in Sydney and I currently work there, so I am not an interstater or oblivious to the workings of Sydney. In any case, who cares where I live. The point made is that some clubs are bigger than others, Sydney or otherwise. It is straight statistical analysis and nothing more.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
70,176
North Queensland has about 500k people spread out over a vast area that dwarfs European countries. Townsville has about 180k people.

The NRL is a national competition. When 9 one its 16 clubs are based in Sydney and pulling diabolical crowds and TV ratings then it impacts RL across the country, thus entitling all RL fans to point out that Sydney cannot support so many teams. There are cities unrepresented because we've got so many teams in Sydney. If we want the game to grow then we'll need to trim the fat.
I actually dont think that is necessary yet. We still have made hardly any effort to engage their fanbases properly. Lets do that first then if they are still performing badly in appeal it might be time. Personally I'd reduce the grant to $11mill and use the money saved to grow to a 20 club comp with the next 3 clubs being Perth, NZ2 and Brisbane3. See how a 20 team comp goes with a rethink on TV scheduling and some effort put into memberships and attendances. And that's for all clubs not just Sydney clubs.

If Cowboys want to stay in then despite their small market they need to be back to the their 20k plus members and 17k crowds. They've got a lovely new stadium yet struggling to get people to go and their memberships have dropped significantly.

At the moment on fan appeal alone you'd have to say:
In Sydney
Manly
Cronulla
Dragons
Tigers

and out of Sydney
Titans
Cowboys (possibly saved by TV audiences)

are the weak links. I've not put Warriors in as they are in exceptional circumstances
 

Wb1234

Immortal
Messages
35,033
Being on GEM the ratings get lumped in a different category but sponsors like to have that reach.

They have sides in the Junior League comps so that might change but there is no side that is good in every category.

All clubs are profitable. The League is making money and that is all that matters
No juniors after 25 years is a big worry

they are on gem
Nope. Team can play its games at Wollongong and SFS while representing Southern Sydney and Illawarra. Kogarah and Endeavour aren't NRL standard grounds.
heck why not play those
This seems to blow your theory partly out the water lol. 3 of the least covered clubs by Ch9 are in Sydney and Storm have more FTA games than 5 Sydney clubs. The club with the least FTA games is one of the bigger supported Sydney clubs. Sharks have same number of FTA games as Cowboys and Raiders. Go figure!

 

MugaB

Coach
Messages
15,390
North Queensland has about 500k people spread out over a vast area that dwarfs European countries. Townsville has about 180k people.

The NRL is a national competition. When 9 one its 16 clubs are based in Sydney and pulling diabolical crowds and TV ratings then it impacts RL across the country, thus entitling all RL fans to point out that Sydney cannot support so many teams. There are cities unrepresented because we've got so many teams in Sydney. If we want the game to grow then we'll need to trim the fat.
Again your are only using the metrics of attendance and memberships, you forget in a decade that the same few sydney teams that you want to punt, will be the juggernaut of the comp, success is cyclical and there aren't many teams that stay on top of the ladder for a long period of time, the comp was based on the inner city rivalry of the NSWRL, its Expansion teams are only as good as the opposition it comes up against, broadcasters want brisbane and they want sydney, anything in sydney....
Penrith won't be able to to hold 1st place in 2032 ten years from now, they'll be some Johnathan Thurston type player playing at the Tigers, and it will be Wests dominating, just like the Jarryd Haynes and the Lockyers, and the Slaters, the game is cyclical, the teams rotate rosters very often, to say we have too many teams in sydney is false, when AFL have the same amount, regardless of whether they want it that way or not... Cronulla has improved this year, while Roosters are falling short but look to be making finals anyway just like the sharks of 5 years ago, like i said its cyclical, and the higher you stay on the ladder, the more successful and stable your memberships/ crowds get along with more free to air games, coz you're popular.... if your tge wooden spooner like the dogs, you get Fk all free to air, which then snowballs into all areas of the clubs business... winning solves everything
 

Colk

First Grade
Messages
6,750
I actually dont think that is necessary yet. We still have made hardly any effort to engage their fanbases properly. Lets do that first then if they are still performing badly in appeal it might be time. Personally I'd reduce the grant to $11mill and use the money saved to grow to a 20 club comp with the next 3 clubs being Perth, NZ2 and Brisbane3. See how a 20 team comp goes with a rethink on TV scheduling and some effort put into memberships and attendances. And that's for all clubs not just Sydney clubs.

If Cowboys want to stay in then despite their small market they need to be back to the their 20k plus members and 17k crowds. They've got a lovely new stadium yet struggling to get people to go and their memberships have dropped significantly.

At the moment on fan appeal alone you'd have to say:
In Sydney
Manly
Cronulla
Dragons
Tigers

and out of Sydney
Titans
Cowboys (possibly saved by TV audiences)

are the weak links. I've not put Warriors in as they are in exceptional circumstances

I’d totally disagree with the Tigers. They are not flash by any means (nobody is that flash in the NRL tbh) but they have the third highest membership of all Sydney teams, which considering how crap they have been for a long time is ok. There is potential with them if they can sort their stuff out. Same goes with Canterbury. Those two have potential in a massive growing area in south west Sydney.

Dragons are a maybe. Depends on the age of their supporter base but again if they can tap into Wollongong and play their big games in Sydney there is a future.

The Roosters are the ones that stand out to me. They have had uninterrupted success for 20 years (thereabouts), good facilities, plenty of history, yet their membership is about 16k. There is not much growth in the area they represent either. Do you imagine what their support will be like if they go through lean years?

I agree with Manly and Cronulla. Again those clubs need to find areas that they can grow into because those areas themselves aren’t going to grow much more.

Titans are the big concern outside of Sydney. I hope that they can get some success shortly.
 

Iamback

Referee
Messages
20,758
It is disingenuous to suggest the AFL don’t want less teams in Melbourne.

Sydney was a relocation because in the early 80s, you couldn’t play league football on Sundays in Melbourne. That way the dead team got moved to Sydney and they could televise a live game in to Melbourne. Smart move. But clubs didn’t like the travel.

Many AFL supporters in SA and WA argued putting a team in to the AFL was going to kill the local WAFL and SANFL, paralleling the arguments in Illawarra, Newcastle and Brisbane that their local comp would suffer. Some still argue that. Argue their best youngsters get drafted and shafted to Sydney or Brisbane/Gold Coast.

Hawthorn and Melbourne looked to merge in mid 90s much like Easts and Saints. The mid 90s professional era had begun and clubs were caught out trying to keep up. There was much anguish over it. The reemergence of Hawthorn mirrors Easts in the past two decades.

North Melbourne mirror South Sydney except Norths were nomadic for a while in Sydney, Canberra and Gold Coast, before getting themselves in order off field. Souths got turfed, fought back and returned.

Fitzroy we’re all but dead as were the Brisbane Bears and the merger worked, as long as the AFL bankrolled it. Once the glow finished, it was back to shit again though recently the Lions have bounced back. Both Wests and Saints have had a lean decade with their mergers. Get the collective shit together and they’ll be big.

The AFL play games in Tasmania, taking advantage of a market while dilly dallying over expansion in that state. Sounds like RL in Adelaide, Perth and Southern NZ.

The AFL really only have Tasmania to expand to, and that’ll be a team like a Cowboys. They play the long game but eventually the dollars will stop and hard decisions will have to be made.

The NRL have Adelaide, Perth and NZ2 to look at with Pacific/PNG pipelines to nurture.
They also have to decide on having a truly independent commission, expansion and junior development, fan engagement etc.
They also need to make sure the Sydney teams represent strong fan and membership bases and ask what they represent because at the moment the brands are great but would one of those brands be better suited in another market? If WT weren’t in the comp are we truly going to say the junior comps out there will die and the talent won’t go to their clubs?

Compare League to that same time:

Newtown gone
Norths gone
Balmain gone
Wests gone
St George gone

So Sydney has also done it rationalisation
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
70,176

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
70,176
I’d totally disagree with the Tigers. They are not flash by any means (nobody is that flash in the NRL tbh) but they have the third highest membership of all Sydney teams, which considering how crap they have been for a long time is ok. There is potential with them if they can sort their stuff out. Same goes with Canterbury. Those two have potential in a massive growing area in south west Sydney.

Dragons are a maybe. Depends on the age of their supporter base but again if they can tap into Wollongong and play their big games in Sydney there is a future.

The Roosters are the ones that stand out to me. They have had uninterrupted success for 20 years (thereabouts), good facilities, plenty of history, yet their membership is about 16k. There is not much growth in the area they represent either. Do you imagine what their support will be like if they go through lean years?

I agree with Manly and Cronulla. Again those clubs need to find areas that they can grow into because those areas themselves aren’t going to grow much more.

Titans are the big concern outside of Sydney. I hope that they can get some success shortly.
Based on now. I would agree Tigers, Bulldogs and Panthers are the Sydney clubs with real potential for consistent growth. Souths as well for attendances if they decide to play at a decent stadium. Manly and cronulla are both hamstrung by poor stadiums and isolated catchments so its hard to see where their potential lies. Dragons who knows. They seem to have a lot of followers but few supporters who turn out. Wollongong has potential in a newcastle sort of way but isn't yet showing on crowds. If they had the balls to go 9 games at WIN 3 at the new SFS with reciprocal memberships with Eels, Souths and Wests then it could be a big shift for them.

roosters are what they are and unlikely to change unless they got serious about Gosford and the North shore engagement. 9 games at SFS and 3 at Gosford would be a start then a link up with Bears and merging the Jnr systems of Easts and Norths may be the answer for them?

Out of Sydney Titans probably have best potential. They've shown they can attract 20k fans, have the stadium but need more engagement strategy and better on field. Warriors would be the other massive under achievers with so much more potential.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
70,176
Even that doesn't matter so long as the best talent is finding it's way into the NRL.

The whole system in the NRL is an archaic relic of the past. If we were serious junior development would have been taken almost completely out of the pro-club's hands decades ago.
Melbourne have 66% of their listed first team made their NRL debut for Storm.
Cronulla 55%, Bulldogs have 50%.
And they say Storm don't produce players??

Roosters, the other team often slammed for lack of Jnrs, have 73% which is only just behind the 79% of the much lauded current Panthers squad!
 
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Messages
14,822
I actually dont think that is necessary yet. We still have made hardly any effort to engage their fanbases properly. Lets do that first then if they are still performing badly in appeal it might be time. Personally I'd reduce the grant to $11mill and use the money saved to grow to a 20 club comp with the next 3 clubs being Perth, NZ2 and Brisbane3. See how a 20 team comp goes with a rethink on TV scheduling and some effort put into memberships and attendances. And that's for all clubs not just Sydney clubs.

If Cowboys want to stay in then despite their small market they need to be back to the their 20k plus members and 17k crowds. They've got a lovely new stadium yet struggling to get people to go and their memberships have dropped significantly.

At the moment on fan appeal alone you'd have to say:
In Sydney
Manly
Cronulla
Dragons
Tigers

and out of Sydney
Titans
Cowboys (possibly saved by TV audiences)

are the weak links. I've not put Warriors in as they are in exceptional circumstances
As a Cowboys fan I am disappointed with the drop off in attendance. We should be pulling 18k to 20k each game. It's time for the people of Townsville to pull their finger out and start attending games. The club cannot expect fans who live four to seven hours away to make the trip to games while lazy buggers less than an hour away refuse to attend.

Townsville Crocodiles went bust a few years ago. People just aren't as interested in sports attendance these days as they were 20 years ago. Especially younger people who've grown up with technology providing them an endless array of entertainment options.

I don't think the NRL will ever get rid of the Cowboys. Not after a new stadium was built. What could happen is the club might be forced to expand into Cairns, Mackay and Darwin by taking games there. Nine at Townsville and one at Darwin, Cairns and Mackay would be good for fans living closer to those regions.
 

MugaB

Coach
Messages
15,390
Melbourne have 66% of their listed first team made their NRL debut for Storm.
Cronulla 55%, Bulldogs have 50%.
And they say Storm don't produce players??

Roosters, the other team often slammed for lack of Jnrs, have 73% which is only just behind the 79% of the much lauded current Panthers squad!
Roosters 73% are not juniors from the area they represent, thats the point, they are handing out 1st grade jerseys then its sink or swim, and most of those "juniors" are punted elsewhere, look at ryan matrerson, and paul momorovski, 2 great players now that theyve gone thru other systems that being tigers and panthers, where roosters punted them as they we'ren't good enough, it takes time to develop, storm are the best at it, they outsource juniors yes, but they have them gradually progressing thru to 1st grade over 2-3 seasons, the roosters hand out jerseys like candy, you see 73 percent as a high number, but the numerals aren't telling the story.. they are in the business of winning, and that means when you dont have much in terms of catchments, you need to continue to break as many eggs as you can get from elsewhere, the bulk of the roosters stacked side are from other clubs... keary, teddy, crichton, hargreves etc..

Melbourne on the other hand, don't often buy too many players from market, only cheap outside backs or, journeyman forwards, theyve made a 20 years of success by building a roster from within, its only after the players they get elsewhere from market, get better under the storm system... every club should be doing this, and expansion and player pool wouldn't be an issue
 
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Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
70,176
Roosters 73% are not juniors from the area they represent, thats the point, they are handing out 1st grade jerseys then its sink or swim, and most of those "juniors" are punted elsewhere, look at ryan matrerson, and paul momorovski, 2 great players now that theyve gone thru other systems that being tigers and panthers, where roosters punted them as they we'ren't good enough, it takes time to develop, storm are the best at it, they outsource juniors yes, but they have them gradually progressing thru to 1st grade over 2-3 seasons, the roosters hand out jerseys like candy
Irrelevant, that is the % of players in this years first team squad that have made their NRL debut for the Roosters. That shows that they are bringing players through to first grade at a better rate than most clubs. All clubs let players go either before debut or just after that then go on to have great careers at other clubs. You cant keep them all and sometimes clubs dont see the potential or the player just develops better at a different club.

Thats why I'd have U16's and U18's separate from clubs and under the control of the state body, then the clubs can pick up the best 17/18 year olds and turn them into first graders.
 

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