Stalled and stagnant Sydney clubs

[MugaB]

Irrelevant, that is the % of players in this years first team squad that have made their NRL debut for the Roosters. That shows that they are bringing players through to first grade at a better rate than most clubs. All clubs let players go either before debut or just after that then go on to have great careers at other clubs. You cant keep them all and sometimes clubs dont see the potential or the player just develops better at a different club.

Thats why I'd have U16's and U18's separate from clubs and under the control of the state body, then the clubs can pick up the best 17/18 year olds and turn them into first graders.

No not irrelevant, coz it means they are debuting them only, not producing actual 1st graders... you think if perth had a team announced 2mrw that theyd be competitive day one, just coz theyve debut 17 players.. grow up pal, there's a massive difference between your ryan papanhauzens and your drew hutchesons, ones elite, the other is expendable

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Again your are only using the metrics of attendance and memberships, you forget in a decade that the same few sydney teams that you want to punt, will be the juggernaut of the comp, success is cyclical and there aren't many teams that stay on top of the ladder for a long period of time, the comp was based on the inner city rivalry of the NSWRL, its Expansion teams are only as good as the opposition it comes up against, broadcasters want brisbane and they want sydney, anything in sydney....
Penrith won't be able to to hold 1st place in 2032 ten years from now, they'll be some Johnathan Thurston type player playing at the Tigers, and it will be Wests dominating, just like the Jarryd Haynes and the Lockyers, and the Slaters, the game is cyclical, the teams rotate rosters very often, to say we have too many teams in sydney is false, when AFL have the same amount, regardless of whether they want it that way or not... Cronulla has improved this year, while Roosters are falling short but look to be making finals anyway just like the sharks of 5 years ago, like i said its cyclical, and the higher you stay on the ladder, the more successful and stable your memberships/ crowds get along with more free to air games, coz you're popular.... if your tge wooden spooner like the dogs, you get Fk all free to air, which then snowballs into all areas of the clubs business... winning solves everything

I think most Sydney clubs have the potential to draw solid crowds and ratings when they're winning.

St George. South Sydney. Canterbury. Parramatta. Wests. Penrith. Sydney. All draw better than average ratings and attendances when doing well. Maybe not Penrith, but they're in a growth area so I expect them to become one of the bigger and better supported clubs as Western Sydney grows. They're the keepers.

Sydney and Penrith will have state of the art stadiums within a few years. Parramatta already has a great stadium. Wests and Canterbury are sort of in limbo when it comes to getting a new stadium as they can theoretically use Parramatta Stadium and Stadium Australia. St George isn't getting one, but it might get an eastern stand built at Wollongong.

Manly have been successful on the field but have drawn terrible ratings and attendances. For me that says the club cannot grow any larger and is just getting in the way of the Roosters. There's no reason why Roosters cannot take in North Shore, Northern Beaches and Central Coast within a generation or two. I know the Roosters don't draw the best crowds and attendances for a successful team, but they're still bigger than Manly and have more potential to grow their brand as they're not named after a polarising suburb.

Cronulla are doing well in the board room, but I cannot see how they can grow when they're sandwiched between Illawarra and the old St George district. They've had a lot of onfield success since 2015, but are still drawing low attendances and ratings like Manly. I cannot see them ever being a big drawing brand like St George, so for me I'd relocate them to a larger market like Adelaide or Perth so the Dragons can grow and go back to being the powerhouse they were pre-1967.

I think RL would be much stronger in Sydney with seven clubs, minus Sea Eagles and Sharks. If done right we can continue the Sea Eagles brand in Adelaide and Sharks in Perth in an 18 team competition that includes NZ 2. That way there's not too much strain on the talent base.

 

[MugaB]

I think most Sydney clubs have the potential to draw solid crowds and ratings when they're winning.

St George. South Sydney. Canterbury. Parramatta. Wests. Penrith. Sydney. All draw better than average ratings and attendances when doing well. Maybe not Penrith, but they're in a growth area so I expect them to become one of the bigger and better supported clubs as Western Sydney grows. They're the keepers.

Sydney and Penrith will have state of the art stadiums within a few years. Parramatta already has a great stadium. Wests and Canterbury are sort of in limbo when it comes to getting a new stadium as they can theoretically use Parramatta Stadium and Stadium Australia. St George isn't getting one, but it might get an eastern stand built at Wollongong.

Manly have been successful on the field but have drawn terrible ratings and attendances. For me that says the club cannot grow any larger and is just getting in the way of the Roosters. There's no reason why Roosters cannot take in North Shore, Northern Beaches and Central Coast within a generation or two. I know the Roosters don't draw the best crowds and attendances for a successful team, but they're still bigger than Manly and have more potential to grow their brand as they're not named after a polarising suburb.

Cronulla are doing well in the board room, but I cannot see how they can grow when they're sandwiched between Illawarra and the old St George district. They've had a lot of onfield success since 2015, but are still drawing low attendances and ratings like Manly. I cannot see them ever being a big drawing brand like St George, so for me I'd relocate them to a larger market like Adelaide or Perth so the Dragons can grow and go back to being the powerhouse they were pre-1967.

I think RL would be much stronger in Sydney with seven clubs, minus Sea Eagles and Sharks. If done right we can continue the Sea Eagles brand in Adelaide and Sharks in Perth in an 18 team competition that includes NZ 2. That way there's not too much strain on the talent base.

Great!!! How about i tell you who to pick for QLDs state of Origin side....
You say manly cant grow, well Roosters have nothing stopping them from growing from their area... not sure why manly and cronulla are used as whipping clubs, but roosters are exempt... if they want the north shore or central coast.... go for it nothing stopping them.... other than self interest..
You're wrong about cronulla theyve already assimilated the dragons area, the quicker dragons move to WIN the better off they'll be, also again why the sharks but not the dragons? Seems like youre picking favorites, or using history as a barometer... again ive mention this before success is cyclical, you cannot push out teams just coz the ladder has them unssuccesful this year, not so long ago the dragons were in need of a bail out, before then they had to merge..

 

[Perth Red]

No not irrelevant, coz it means they are debuting them only, not producing actual 1st graders... you think if perth had a team announced 2mrw that theyd be competitive day one, just coz theyve debut 17 players.. grow up pal, there's a massive difference between your ryan papanhauzens and your drew hutchesons, ones elite, the other is expendable

I'm not sure of your argument there. Are you saying you think every player that makes a debut should be a superstar? or that no player that makes a debut should ever fail in first grade?
Surely the ultimate test of how development systems are working is how many players do you bring into first grade? After that it is then what is the quality of those players in terms of how many make it and how many dont. I guess looking at a teams starting 17 and how many debuted in that starting 17 for the club might go some way to answering that? Or how many players are still in first grade after say 3 years maybe?

 

[MugaB]

I'm not sure of your argument there. Are you saying you think every player that makes a debut should be a superstar? or that no player that makes a debut should ever fail in first grade?
Surely the ultimate test of how development systems are working is how many players do you bring into first grade? After that it is then what is the quality of those players in terms of how many make it and how many dont. I guess looking at a teams starting 17 and how many debuted in that starting 17 for the club might go some way to answering that? Or how many players are still in first grade after say 3 years maybe?

I'd say the last one doesnt apply to the roosters debuts, but yeah, 1st graders vs placeholders, thats what i was getting at

 

[Perth Red]

Great!!! How about i tell you who to pick for QLDs state of Origin side....
You say manly cant grow, well Roosters have nothing stopping them from growing from their area... not sure why manly and cronulla are used as whipping clubs, but roosters are exempt... if they want the north shore or central coast.... go for it nothing stopping them.... other than self interest..
You're wrong about cronulla theyve already assimilated the dragons area, the quicker dragons move to WIN the better off they'll be, also again why the sharks but not the dragons? Seems like youre picking favorites, or using history as a barometer... again ive mention this before success is cyclical, you cannot push out teams just coz the ladder has them unssuccesful this year, not so long ago the dragons were in need of a bail out, before then they had to merge..

The Roosters are investing in a growing footprint on the central coast. I suspect they are being held back from doing much on the North shore by the Bears and Seaeagles who understandably in the current set up feel its their turf.
There is little sign that Cronulla are growing anything other than a bit better bank balance and a take up by Jnrs of the game in the region. Their stadium is capped at 12k and they cant even get close to that this season despite putting a winning team and good coach together and being away from home for 2 years. You'd think Sharks fans would be falling over themselves to go along to Shark park!
Dragons need to go 9 & 3, gong and SFS. finish off WIN stadium and get their big latent fanbase engaged. Dragons were a classic club who relied on their pokies and when that started to dry up they were in trouble. Sharks take note.

 

[Perth Red]

I'd say the last one doesnt apply to the roosters debuts, but yeah, 1st graders vs placeholders, thats what i was getting at

Would take a lot of researching to prove one way or the other! You could go through every teams list and see who made their debut for Roosters then check them out on Wicki to see what year that was

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Compare League to that same time:

Newtown gone
Norths gone
Balmain gone
Wests gone
St George gone

So Sydney has also done it rationalisation

St George is still there, just with Illawarra added to their name.

Balmain and Wests were on death's door.

North Sydney was always a small club in an area that wasn't culturally suited to RL. Too many onionball snobs. Similar to Manly and Roosters, but with more obstacles. Combine the three areas into one team and there will be enough RL fans to make them strong.

 

[AdelaideSharky]

Great!!! How about i tell you who to pick for QLDs state of Origin side....
You say manly cant grow, well Roosters have nothing stopping them from growing from their area... not sure why manly and cronulla are used as whipping clubs, but roosters are exempt... if they want the north shore or central coast.... go for it nothing stopping them.... other than self interest..
You're wrong about cronulla theyve already assimilated the dragons area, the quicker dragons move to WIN the better off they'll be, also again why the sharks but not the dragons? Seems like youre picking favorites, or using history as a barometer... again ive mention this before success is cyclical, you cannot push out teams just coz the ladder has them unssuccesful this year, not so long ago the dragons were in need of a bail out, before then they had to merge..

MB, GROTD has a irrational borderline psychotic hatred of us and seems to be deep rooted for reasons other than RL.
I had many arguments with this mentally ill individual to the point I thought f**k it I'm putting him on ignore as I got fed up of copping bans for firing back at him. The sooner the rest of the forum ignores this imbecile the better.

 

[MugaB]

MB, GROTD has a irrational borderline psychotic hatred of us and seems to be deep rooted for reasons other than RL.
I had many arguments with this mentally ill individual to the point I thought f**k it I'm putting him on ignore as I got fed up of copping bans for firing back at him. The sooner the rest of the forum ignores this imbecile the better.

Well it seems that manly and cronulla are doomed, all coz the great GROTD has chosen the roosters and dragons ahead of them, must be fait accompli...lets start drawing the new borderlines already...
FMD

Oh yes i forgot, Canterbury Bulldogs are the current wooden spooners, off with their head......

 

[Wb1234]

Crowds, sponsors and ratings follow the good teams. All counts

Financially the league clubs are stronger than the afl ones.

Why not have those Sydney games in Singapore then they can represent four regions ?

you've totally ignored the FTA amount of times clubs are on, which was your argument re value to FTA lol. Now you're changing you're tune to amount of viewers in one market.
If Storm are so unwanted by Ch9 why are they showing them more often than 5 other Sydney clubs?

It’s not about people in Sydney or Brisbane who watch the storm lmao

it’s how many watch them in Melbourne. This is why they are on gem most of the time

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Great!!! How about i tell you who to pick for QLDs state of Origin side....
You say manly cant grow, well Roosters have nothing stopping them from growing from their area... not sure why manly and cronulla are used as whipping clubs, but roosters are exempt... if they want the north shore or central coast.... go for it nothing stopping them.... other than self interest..
You're wrong about cronulla theyve already assimilated the dragons area, the quicker dragons move to WIN the better off they'll be, also again why the sharks but not the dragons? Seems like youre picking favorites, or using history as a barometer... again ive mention this before success is cyclical, you cannot push out teams just coz the ladder has them unssuccesful this year, not so long ago the dragons were in need of a bail out, before then they had to merge..

I explained why Roosters and Dragons stay.

1. Roosters and Dragons have larger fanbases than Sea Eagles and Sharks.

2. Sharks and Sea Eagles have been successful on the field, but it hasn't translated into strong crowds and TV ratings. When Roosters and Dragons are successful they add money to the game by drawing larger crowds and better TV ratings. There's a reason Roosters vs Dragons is played on ANZAC Day whereas Sea Eagles vs Sharks is not. A game between Sea Eagles and Sharks on ANZAC Day at the SFS isn't going to draw 40k. Manly and Cronulla fans don't travel.

3. Roosters have an arrangement with North Sydney Bears and a link with Gosford. Manly do not and flat out refuse to invest in either area. Manly could have owned Gosford in 2001 but chose pull out of it in 2002. Their actions over the last 20 years prove they're not interested in expanding past their small pocket on the Northern Beaches.

4. The animosity between North Sydney and Manly makes it much more difficult for Manly to become a big club on the North Shore. Roosters will have a much better.

5. Sharks might be expanding their junior base, but it's not translating into more fans for the club. They're never going to win over Southern Sydney and Illawarra. Deep down they know it too, hence the reason they're not adding too many seats to their stadium.

 

[AdelaideSharky]

Well it seems that manly and cronulla are doomed, all coz the great GROTD has chosen the roosters and dragons ahead of them, must be fait accompli...lets start drawing the new borderlines already...
FMD

Oh yes i forgot, Canterbury Bulldogs are the current wooden spooners, off with their head......

The other thing old mate @Perth Red doesn't realise there are also more clubs in the Roosters' eastern suburbs area than people forget about. There's been a long running turf war between the Roosters and their neighbouring nemesis South Sydney where the latter got the junior boundaries redrawn in their favour thanks to the power they had at NSWRL HQ in the 1950's that's never been readdressed.

I've got no love for the Chooks but there are a few clubs in the South Sydney Juniors that technically should be in the Sydney Roosters Juniors/Easts Juniors. Getting those clubs back would increase the Roosters junior talent pool immensely.

 

[Perth Red]

Financially the league clubs are stronger than the afl ones.


It’s not about people in Sydney or Brisbane who watch the storm lmao

it’s how many watch them in Melbourne. This is why they are on gem most of the time

thats not what Ch9 care about and you know it, you're just changing your argument because I've shown you the facts and the facts don't support your argument lol Ch9 dont care where peope are awtaching, they care about how many people overall are watching and how that can drive adertising spend.
You said Ch9 dont show Storm as much as Sydney clubs as they dont care about them. I've proved otherwise. You could just say, sorry I was wrong.

That’s what these fools don’t realise if we are using metrics then it’s clubs like the cowboys, titans, storm and Canberra who would be the first to get booted out.

channel nine has no interest in showing these clubs so they add little to the tv rights

 

[Wb1234]

thats not what Ch9 care about and you know it, you're just changing your argument because I've shown you the facts and the facts don't support your argument lol Ch9 dont care where peope are awtaching, they care about how many people overall are watching and how that can drive adertising spend.
You said Ch9 dont show Storm as much as Sydney clubs as they dont care about them. I've proved otherwise. You could just say, sorry I was wrong.

Are you being deliberately obtuse ?

the point of adding a team is to grow tv viewers in their own market. With all their success the storm haven’t done that

a Perth nrl team would be even worse. Of course it’s not the only metric to judge a team but for the main broadcaster to have no interest in that team is really bad

 

[AdelaideSharky]

Are you being deliberately obtuse ?

the point of adding a team is to grow tv viewers in their own market. With all their success the storm haven’t done that

a Perth nrl team would be even worse. Of course it’s not the only metric to judge a team but for the main broadcaster to have no interest in that team is really bad

It's pretty telling how much people really don't care about the Storm in Melbourne despite all these years of success that they're being shunted to 9's secondary channel.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

MB, GROTD has a irrational borderline psychotic hatred of us and seems to be deep rooted for reasons other than RL.
I had many arguments with this mentally ill individual to the point I thought f**k it I'm putting him on ignore as I got fed up of copping bans for firing back at him. The sooner the rest of the forum ignores this imbecile the better.

I don't care one way or the other about Cronulla. I just go by statistics on attendances, memberships and television ratings. None of which endorse Cronulla's inclusion in the NRL. Them the facts.

You're too emotionally invested in the Sharks to see that there's no metric that supports their inclusion in a national competition. Attendances have been historically poor and are still low for a team that routinely plays finals football. TV ratings for this club are on the low end. Membership numbers are not good either. Despite all of this, you're against the idea of Adelaide having a team because you say it won't have enough fans. Pot. Kettle. Black.

As for the insults about mental illness. You rant and rave like a dangerous lunatic in need of a psychiatrist whenever some one points out a few truths about your club that aren't pleasing to your ears. That's not normal.

 

[Perth Red]

Are you being deliberately obtuse ?

the point of adding a team is to grow tv viewers in their own market. With all their success the storm haven’t done that

a Perth nrl team would be even worse. Of course it’s not the only metric to judge a team but for the main broadcaster to have no interest in that team is really bad

haha, no it isnt, its to be popular across all the tv audience. Ch9 doesn't care how many watch Storm in Melbourne, if they did they'd put it on the main channel and promote the hell out of it in Melbourne. What they care about is the fact Storm are one of the most watched teams on TV. Thats why they show them, PTV even more so as the Storm are in the top 3 audiences on PTV every year and often feature in the most watched game of the year. There's a reason Ch9 show Storm as many times as a big Sydney club like the Eels and its got nothing to do with Melbourne audiences!

If a Perth NRL club can become top 3 watched clubs on PTV and generate significant enough interest on FTA nationally that they are shown more often than some of the Sydney clubs then I think everyone would consider it a success no matter how many viewers it got in Perth!

Sharks are on FTA as many times as Raiders. Hmmm where's your argument now??

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Are you being deliberately obtuse ?

the point of adding a team is to grow tv viewers in their own market. With all their success the storm haven’t done that

a Perth nrl team would be even worse. Of course it’s not the only metric to judge a team but for the main broadcaster to have no interest in that team is really bad

This is BS. RL games on Ch9/GEM draw much higher ratings in Melbourne when the Storm are playing. A couple of years back there were more people from Melbourne watching the GF than from Brisbane. It's common for people in Melbourne to wear Melbourne Storm apparel. They've been good for the game in Melbourne.

 

[Perth Red]

This is BS. RL games on Ch9/GEM draw much higher ratings in Melbourne when the Storm are playing. A couple of years back there were more people from Melbourne watching the GF than from Brisbane. It's common for people in Melbourne to wear Melbourne Storm apparel. They've been good for the game in Melbourne.

It doesnt matter how many NRL viewers are watching in Melbourne. Thast really just a bonus and hopefully a growth opportunity. The rest of the country wants to watch the Storm more than nearly every other club. Thats why they are so valuable and why they sit a top the Tv audience charts most years.