Stalled and stagnant Sydney clubs

[Iamback]

on field success shouldn't be a factor, otherwise we should be arguing for 2 new teams in Melbourne, maybe another in Vaucluse.

Crowds, sponsors and ratings follow the good teams. All counts

 

[Colk]

Afl has 9 teams in Melbourne
Nrl has 8.5 team in Sydney

population of Melbourne 5 million
Sydney population 5.3 million

Sure but what are their attendances? What are their memberships?

 

[Colk]

Only issue with that logic is where the Cowboys fans when they were stone motherless last until Canterbury shit the bed and offloaded Johnathan Thurston in favour of Brent Sherwin leading Thurston to move to the Cows, same with Melbourne a club that has predominantly been parked in the top four for 22 of the 24 years it has been in the competition?

If you are going to apply whataboutism what’s the excuse for the Roosters? Or Manly? Or even your club? If it’s simply about success equals more supporters why haven’t those Sydney sides matched the numbers of the Cowboys or the Storm when they have achieved success.

Roosters and Manly have had massive success over the last 20 years so why don’t they have 30k members or 500k plus supporters like the Storm or the Cowboys.

The point is fairly obvious once you seperate it from emotion. Some Sydney sides are well supported, some aren’t. Some are important to TV dollars and revenue, some aren’t. The same principle applies to clubs outside of Sydney.

Just spare me this tiresome, emotional plea that Sydney clubs are more important than each and every one of the regional clubs based on ethereal or unquantifiable aspects like tradition or the vibe of it all or whatever else.

 

[Iamback]

Success has helped the Storm. That is unarguable. They still average more than most of the Sydney teams though including one in particular that has had comparable success to them. They average more than Manly also who have had massive success as well.

Again if any new side averaged the same as those two we would have people talking about how the expansion has failed.

How many Victorians are playing the game though? Having Melbourne helps with the corporate dollar and helps sell to broadcasters

but a QLD or NZ side with that success would have double the crowds. So it is the whole package a side brings

 

[Wb1234]

How many Victorians are playing the game though? Having Melbourne helps with the corporate dollar and helps sell to broadcasters

but a QLD or NZ side with that success would have double the crowds. So it is the whole package a side brings

The storm help are value to foxtel they add nothing for channel nine. That’s to go with having no juniors.

 

[Iamback]

The storm help are value to foxtel they add nothing for channel nine. That’s to go with having no juniors.

Being on GEM the ratings get lumped in a different category but sponsors like to have that reach.

They have sides in the Junior League comps so that might change but there is no side that is good in every category.

All clubs are profitable. The League is making money and that is all that matters

 

[AdelaideSharky]

If you are going to apply whataboutism what’s the excuse for the Roosters? Or Manly? Or even your club? If it’s simply about success equals more supporters why haven’t those Sydney sides matched the numbers of the Cowboys or the Storm when they have achieved success.

Roosters and Manly have had massive success over the last 20 years so why don’t they have 30k members or 500k plus supporters like the Storm or the Cowboys.

The point is fairly obvious once you seperate it from emotion. Some Sydney sides are well supported, some aren’t. Some are important to TV dollars and revenue, some aren’t. The same principle applies to clubs outside of Sydney.

Just spare me this tiresome, emotional plea that Sydney clubs are more important than each and every one of the regional clubs based on ethereal or unquantifiable aspects like tradition or the vibe of it all or whatever else.

Easts and Manly are an easy answer, their areas are the traditional home of rugby union. Most people in the eastern suburbs and North Shore/Northern Beaches are more than likely to attend their local Shute Shield club than anywhere else.

Both Easts and Manly do quite well for themselves being rugby union heartland.

Plus unlike Melbourne and North Queensland they don't have virtually the entire state to themselves.

And ffs like others have pointed out to your other fellow interstaters just shut the f**k up, you don't live in Sydney, nor lived in Sydney (like I did for the vast majority of my life) so don't gob off telling Sydneysiders how to deal with Sydney issues.

 

[AdelaideSharky]

How many Victorians are playing the game though? Having Melbourne helps with the corporate dollar and helps sell to broadcasters

but a QLD or NZ side with that success would have double the crowds. So it is the whole package a side brings

They've only produced 1 home grown junior and that bloke played 6 games for Tonga and has spent the last 6 years in the Super League.

 

[MugaB]

The method doesn’t work because you can’t expand beyond NSW and Qld.

It’s a perfect Catch 22 situation - you can’t develop talent in WA or SA or PNG etc because you don’t have a club there and you have people like you arguing against the merits of any of these options because there is no talent developed there. It’s a self limiting proposal.

If you have a centralised development program other than having the clubs invest in junior development, you can directly invest in areas to grow the game.

Also, for every Penrith, you have a GC or Newcastle or Cronulla who were too broke to develop talent in any meaningful money. Why should we hamstring development in these areas which is for the betterment of the whole game just because of the commercial problems of those clubs. Again that is self defeating.

On the aspect of GC, I have outlined how they are a concern. That doesn’t mean what I have said about Sydney clubs or expanding to areas outside of traditional RL areas any less valid

This is incorrect Cronulla has the 2nd biggest nursery, behind penrith, if you're looking for a reason that cronulla are ahead of the pack for any reason, its this alone, Newcastle come in third, and im fairly sure gold coasts boundaries from northern rivers to north of GC has a fairly large catchment of junior development....
These are areas that are nessesary to create the amount of players in the player pool for not only the local club, but also for every Rooster, Storm or Eel that go around poaching from these clubs to fill their squad. Now its not exactly these 3 clubs poaching, but they are renowned for buying more talent than they create themselves. So as many here use metrics like attendance and memberships, or annual return income or worthiness to a broadcaster, none of that matters, without development clubs like Canberra, Newcastle, Cronulla and Penrith,
I'd throw in Cows and Tits too, coz without the players none of those other non development clubs would be able to fill rosters competitive enough to stay successful.... and before you say, well ypu don't need a club in the area you develop!, "north sydney bears" and its area did not just become manly or tigers or roosters.
Same as removing cronulla would suddenly become st george or easts or souths, certain clubs bring value via development, others bring value in other ways, being geographical, or strategic, Melbourne is a great example coz they are valuable due to being a club run in a city of 5 million, so any concessions made in the past is well worth it, regardless of bias of their success or leg ups

 

[Perth Red]

Only using 1 metric

in that time GC as a shiny new team had great support intially

42.15% win record
3 final series
2 wooden spoons

Have gone broke with $35m in debt
Ownership back to NRL and now someone else

Sharks
46.18% win rate
8 finals series
1 premiership
1 spoon
$100m in assets. Made a profit last season

So again tell me how Sydney teams are falling behind

where you getting $100mill assets from?

 

[Perth Red]

Bro you wonder why our fta deal struggles vs afl that’s the reason

nine has no interest in 6 out of 10 nrl teams.

and your response is let’s cut some sydney teams to further reduce our appeal for nine

if anything based on adding value for nine the central coast bears now starts sounding a lot more appealing

No 4 v 3 games, wider metro reach where the advertising $'s are, different games in different states and more adverts are why their FTA deal is bigger. Something the Bears certainly aint going to fix lol.

 

[Perth Red]

The storm help are value to foxtel they add nothing for channel nine. That’s to go with having no juniors.

This seems to blow your theory partly out the water lol. 3 of the least covered clubs by Ch9 are in Sydney and Storm have more FTA games than 5 Sydney clubs. The club with the least FTA games is one of the bigger supported Sydney clubs. Sharks have same number of FTA games as Cowboys and Raiders. Go figure!

Which NRL team has the most free-to-air games in 2022?

NRL games are split over free-to-air and subscription services, though they aren’t shared equally. So which teams benefit the most in 2022?

www.finder.com.au

 

[mongoose]

They've only produced 1 home grown junior and that bloke played 6 games for Tonga and has spent the last 6 years in the Super League.

3 technically

Mahe Fonua, Young Tonumapeia and Richie Kennar.

There has been a bunch of players born in Victoria but played jnr footy in NSW or QLD.

 

[Perth Red]

Storms problem is the NRL doesn't invest properly in NRLVic to get jnr participation rates significantly increased. If you've got 1000 kids playing and 1% of them make the elite program and 1% of them make first grade then you can see the benefits of getting 10,000 kids playing! NRLWA has 4 development officers for the whole state and 3 FT staff. That's the level of investment the NRL is making in grassroots outside of NSW and Qlnd.
Dont blame the Storm that kids arent playing the game in Melbourne enough for them to then develop enough of them into first grade! Storm are probably spending more on development than most as they are running Victorian systems and supporting a system in Qlnd.

 

[Menaiduck]

None of us from Sydney are conflicted. The only idiots pushing this are outsiders like you

Sydney is the place where rugby league is at its strongest on earth.

It seems to make a lot of outsiders jealous. It won’t change anything though

you’re not used to growing up in a major city where rugby league is king. Trust me it was good

you are literally the last person a Sydney rl fan should listen too

M

my views on the way the game is run are only partially clouded by lack of expansion into perth. First and foremost I’m a fan of the game and want to see it reach its full potential.

Thanks. I needed a laugh.

 

[AdelaideSharky]

3 technically

Mahe Fonua, Young Tonumapeia and Richie Kennar.

There has been a bunch of players born in Victoria but played jnr footy in NSW or QLD.

1 technically

Both Young Tonumaipea and Richie Kennar were both born in Apia the capital of Samoa and both played for Samoa.

Next you'll be trying to tell me Gareth Widdop is a Melbournian despite being born in England and played for England.

 

[Perth Red]

Dumb argument. Ponga was born in Port Headland but I wouldn't claim him as WA jnr! Cleary started playing RL in NZ so guess he's not really a Panthers Jnr product? This whole jnr development thing is nonsense anyway. Who cares where you played U8's? Its where you came through from 15/16 in the elite programs and which team you debut for that matters in reality. That shows who has the best scouting, pathways and development programs.
Jnr participation rates are the domain of the State body and ARLC.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

So you want one team to split games between 3 venues ? Lmaooo

Nope. Team can play its games at Wollongong and SFS while representing Southern Sydney and Illawarra. Kogarah and Endeavour aren't NRL standard grounds.

 

[The Great Dane]

Remarkable isn’t it. Some people just like to live in a world where facts don’t matter if it contests with their world view

It's why these discussions are pointless.

We've been having these discussions proper since the late 60s and they always go the same way; the facts are laid out in a totally undeniable fashion, but the other side either chooses to ignore/deny them or responds with emotional arguments (normally an argument from tradition).

Why you ask; put simply those people value their clubs, and their personal gain and enjoyment, before what is best for the game as a whole.
In other words, (e.g.) Shane Richardson would happily weaken his club/s position within the sport if it could be proved to be in the best interests of the game as a whole, where (e.g.) Nick Politis would murder the sport as a viable national product if he thought it's growth threatened the Roosters, or that it'd benefit the Roosters in some way.

It's a fundamental philosophical difference that cannot be bridged.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

They have been true but after 4 years to be $35m in debt. Is a worry especially in RL heartland

The NRL made a profit. Clubs are making profits

Global Financial Crisis erupted just after the Titans began work on the Centre of Excellence. They didn't have a Leagues Club full of pokies to make up the shortfall, unlike Sydney clubs. It was bad luck.

Some clubs have been given money from their state government to build a CoE.