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Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

perverse

Referee
Messages
26,702
It just seems that some people wanted Darth Vader MkII.
But I just love how we open the movie and when we first see Ren he is the typical horrific bad guy - just mows down innocent people, has that badass bit where he stops the laser bolt with the force, and when he easily gets the information out of Poe.
But as the movie goes on we see that he is different. He is trying to live up to Vader, but feels he is falling short. He is still resisting the light side, which is something different - Luke and Anakin were trying to resist the light side. He wears a mask, even though he doesn't need it.
We see him struggle when confronted with someone else who may have a more powerful connection to the force than he does.

What's wrong with 'Emo'?
It's short for 'emotional'. Don't we want characters who show emotion?
I don't see anything wrong with Ren throwing a tantrum (I had more of a problem with the laugh that comes straight after with the stormtroopers backing away. It reduces the impact of the scene). He is still young and has much to learn. I can't wait to see how he is handled in the next one.

Yeah I agree with you. At the end of the day, the internet is big enough that no matter what they do with the movie, there's going to be a sizeable portion of neckbeards that want to tear it down/were disappointed based on their own expectations. The general trend seems to be that most people do love the movie, with the small portion of uber film nerds that hate anything that isn't avant garde cinema hounding it down for being a rehash, not liking the characters, etc.

Rey has copped *a lot* of criticism online for being a Mary Sue for example - which tbh she kinda is... but it wasn't to the point that it ruined anything, and much of her uber-capability may well be explained by later episodes (previous training as a child, more exposition around her strength with the force, etc). You can see that JJ wanted a very capable female protagonist, which I applaud, and maybe took it a little far... but it certainly didn't kill my enjoyment of the movie, or my liking of the character. Rey is a really strong character with a great actress playing her. She kicks arse, takes names and she doesn't need her hand held. I'm sure in the coming movies we will see more difficult trials for Rey.

The truth is, it's a f**king fantasy movie, not a sci-fi. If the writers want a particularly strong person with the force to be able to "awaken" to their powers - they can absolutely have that. It's not even inconsistent with previous canon, Luke was able to force-summon that very same lightsaber before he even met Yoda... with only a couple of moments of training with Obi-Wan. Just pissy people looking for something to be pissed about.

The film wasn't perfect, but it was fun and likeable. It was exactly what Star Wars is, and should be. It's right up there with the OT for me.
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,971
Rey has copped *a lot* of criticism online for being a Mary Sue for example

This is such a stupid criticism 90% of the time. The entire genre of fantasy, across novels, movies, and video games is built around over-powered main characters. Rey's talents aren't even particularly noteworthy in the Star Wars universe, almost every major character has a comparable skillset, and her past isn't explained yet.

It's the sort of criticism made by losers on the internet who see themselves as writing experts because they've complained about a lot of things, but don't actually write anything themselves.
 

T.S Quint

Coach
Messages
14,652
I've got no problem if people don't like the movie.
It's just the stupid reasons they come up with as to why they don't like it that annoys me.
 

Danish

Referee
Messages
32,019
This is such a stupid criticism 90% of the time. The entire genre of fantasy, across novels, movies, and video games is built around over-powered main characters. Rey's talents aren't even particularly noteworthy in the Star Wars universe, almost every major character has a comparable skillset, and her past isn't explained yet.

It's the sort of criticism made by losers on the internet who see themselves as writing experts because they've complained about a lot of things, but don't actually write anything themselves.


I'm also honestly not getting how Rey is anymore of a "Mary sue" than Luke in the original trilogy.

Luke guides his torpedoes by force, force pulls his lightsaber out of the snow, and all sorts of shit before having a damned lesson in the force outside of 5 mins with a blast helmet. And that is all from a guy who literally had never ever HEARD of the force until Obiwan told him about it.

Rey on the other hand has heard all the stories about Luke, Vader, the force, everything. She knows what it is and how it is supposed to work, she just wasn't sure if they were actually true or not. Once it was confirmed to her, her ability to use it would rightfully be light years ahead of Luke. When you consider Luke's primary stumbling block to being able to use the force was his own self doubt in its abilities (the entire basis of his training with Yoda was aimed and tearing down his own mental barriers about size and strength), then Rey already having an idea of how powerful the force can be would absolutely be able to get a handle on it faster.

Plus, honestly, how much does she honestly use the force anyway? 1 mind trick on a storm trooper (who are shown throughout the entire series to be easily fooled by the force) and a force grab of her lightsaber in the snow. Big freaking whoop. All her other abilities like her athleticism and fighting prowess are shown as skills she had been practicing for years in her life as a scavenger on a violent planet.

To me the angry neck beards are just pissed that these awesome force powers are being exploited by a girl, and they simply don't like it as deep down all neck beard nerds are sexist assholes
 

Walt Flanigan

Referee
Messages
20,727
To me the angry neck beards are just pissed that these awesome force powers are being exploited by a girl, and they simply don't like it as deep down all neck beard nerds are sexist assholes

Yep, from what I've read that seems to be a good part of it.
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,971
Yeah, hard to see anyone claiming the main character a Mary Sue if it was a male in the exact same role.

Like Anakin, child mechanical genius, youngest ever Jedi master, greatest pilot in the galaxy, greatest swordsman in the galaxy, etc etc
 

Danish

Referee
Messages
32,019
Yep, from what I've read that seems to be a good part of it.

Another thing that really bugs me is the "ooooh she is fluent in wookie and droid... What a MARY SUE!" bullshit.

Is there a character in the Star Wars universe that DOESN'T understand droids? Literally everyone talks to R2 like he is a person in the original trilogy and the prequels, I think Luke tosses in a few "what'd he say?" questions to C3PO when he first meets him but that's it. I don't recall any communications barriers between Chewie and anyone else in any of the previous 6 movies either (which makes it all the more baffling why he didn't get a medal in New Hope). I mean FFS at one point Chewie and R2 are having their own argument over goddamned space chess.

The people arguing over the Mary Sue crap are probably also members of the men's rights movement and undoubtedly thought the gamer gate fellas had some reasonable points
 

Zoidberg

First Grade
Messages
6,512
Yeah, hard to see anyone claiming the main character a Mary Sue if it was a male in the exact same role.

Like Anakin, child mechanical genius, youngest ever Jedi master, greatest pilot in the galaxy, greatest swordsman in the galaxy, etc etc

Anakin was on the Jedi Council but they did not grant him the rank of Master. Boo yeah!
 
Messages
14,841
I'm sure I'm probably the only one who doesn't know this, but can someone please explain the term "Mary Sue," not familiar with it?
 

Walt Flanigan

Referee
Messages
20,727
I'm sure I'm probably the only one who doesn't know this, but can someone please explain the term "Mary Sue," not familiar with it?

A Mary Sue or Gary Stu or Marty Stu is an idealized fictional character, a young or low-rank person who saves the day through unrealistic abilities. Often this character is recognized as an author insert and/or wish-fulfillment.

That's what google tells me.
 

Munky

Coach
Messages
12,229
A Mary Sue or Gary Stu or Marty Stu is an idealized fictional character, a young or low-rank person who saves the day through unrealistic abilities. Often this character is recognized as an author insert and/or wish-fulfillment.

That's what google tells me.

So almost every hero in pop fiction.
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,971
So almost every hero in pop fiction.

Originated from fan fics where wannabe authors would insert themselves into Star Trek stories and save the day and hook up with one of the main characters.

It can be a valid criticism when the character's abilities are unreasonable in the context of the universe or have no sensible story explanation, I think. Which doesn't really apply here.
 
Messages
14,841
Thanks for the answers gents, makes sense now.

Originated from fan fics where wannabe authors would insert themselves into Star Trek stories and save the day and hook up with one of the main characters.

It can be a valid criticism when the character's abilities are unreasonable in the context of the universe or have no sensible story explanation, I think. Which doesn't really apply here.

Now that I understand the terminology, I agree. It makes no less sense than Luke. Even Anakin with an extended apprenticeship was using his force abilities as a child (podracing,) prior to any training under a Jedi.
 

Aragorn

First Grade
Messages
6,764
Just came back from my 4th screening. Still a good watch. You pick up on so many small things that was missed in previous sittings. I noticed more rehashed one liners from the new hope or settings very similar to new hope which I hadn't previously picked up eg Finn's first engagement with Poe to tell him they were going to escape was similar to Luke when he unmasked himself as a storm trooper telling Leia they were going to escape back in new hope...

Rey is definitely NOT han solos daughter. Han had little to zero thought about Rey when Ren took her away on his ship. Finn was way more concerned and Han literally brushed him off and was more interested in the incoming ship ie Leia.

I also looked closely when Finn and Poe met for the second time for signs of man-love. I don't think Poe is gay. He was just as lively when he first saw BB8 as he was when he locked eyes on Finn. I shiver a bit when he said " You complete..... " subconsciously thinking he was going to say "you complete ME".... Jerry McGuire? I did frown a bit when Finn asked Rey if she had a boy friend, and then repeated "a cute boyfriend"... not sure if straight guys would as if the boyfriend was "cute" so it did get me wondering a bit...



Might have to catch it a final time before it leaves the screens.....
 

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