The annual finals system debate thread

[DubaiSaint]

I am happy with the MacIntyre and I dont understand the critics of it. Alot of people are critical of the system use the argument that the Minor Premier is worse off if they lose.

Even an article I read reported Wayne Bennett was critical and that Saints are now disadvantaged.

But as a Saints fan, I dont see it as an issue and yes, we have to play away but the fact is we had a guarenteed bye if we won.

I dont follow Bennetts logic in that one.

 

[Parra]

The NRL system is the best system for a top 8.

It works because the NRL competition is fairly equal. It does not work in the competitions where there are only 2-3 realistic chances for premiers. In the NRL there are 5-6 genuine chances, more in any given one-off game match-ups. This is where the NRL system rewards teams that win, and makes in harder, or impossible for teams that lose.

The home/away scenarios have nothing at all to do with the finals system. All games could be played at the SFS & the NRL system would be shown to be significantly better.

If you like the AFL system then you are better off advocating a top 4. These would be true finals without teams that are just there to make up the numbers.

 

[Adsy]

Can someone explain this for me.

StGeorge are the highest ranked losers. Parra are the lowest ranked winners. Why are they not playing each other next week?

Thats how I thought the MacIntyre system worekd for week 2.

 

[Avenger]

Can someone explain this for me.

StGeorge are the highest ranked losers. Parra are the lowest ranked winners. Why are they not playing each other next week?

Thats how I thought the MacIntyre system worekd for week 2.

because they go on the opposite side of the draw before they calculate that. In essence it is the lowest ranked winner on your side of the draw. Which is Brisbane. The draw splits in the second week.

 

[Adsy]

Thanks, Avenger!

It has bugged me for years!

 

[Avenger]

Thanks, Avenger!

It has bugged me for years!

No probs. Good luck anyway. If we want to reward the Minor Premiers the top 5 is the only way to go as team 1 only has to win one game to get into the GF, even if they lose their first game. The Top 6 is similar but this benefit is extended to Team 1 and Team 2.

Here is a link for the Mcintrye Top 8 system with links that explain the other systems.

Enjoy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McIntyre_Final_Eight_System

 

[Mark Rudd]

The AFL one is stupid. The NRL favours the teams that finish higher up.

If you don't like being knocked out in 3rd position, your damn team shoul've beat the 6th place team! That's bad luck guys!

The top 4 ALL player weaker teams. They get the advantage and so they should. Fans complain that 8th has to play 1st. Again, BAD LUCK! Your team should've won more games. You have to be disadvantaged for finishing lower in the top 8. HAVE to be!.


And if a top 4 team LOSES, again, bad luck! You are playing a weaker team. You should be abale to beat them, if not, you loose advantage and so you should. You should've won.


The McIntyre System is the best one and is quite easy to work out when you know how.


It favours teams winning. As it should.

 

[parramaniac2516]

The major flaw in the Mcyntyre system for me is that if the Dragons or Bulldogs lose this weekend they have to play away next weekend against lower placed teams. So pretty much your ladder position doesnt matter after week 1. If they fix that then ill be happy.

Its unfortunate but it is a regional final in week 2. Its just unlucky that both times eight has beaten first the minor premiers have had to vs the Broncos. If it was Manly that finished 6th and Broncos fifth you would be versing Manly at the SFS, which is not really that unfair. No Sysem is full proof except for the top 5 but that will never come back.

 

[Cheops]

The McIntyre system(as stupid as it is) NEEDS to have home ground advantage for the winning side, and not the higher ranked side. If you take last years results, and give the higher ranked side the home ground, 5th placed Brisbane's reward for winning is to go and play 1st placed Melbourne in Melbourne. The losing Roosters on the other hand get to play at home to the 8th placed Warriors.

I'm sure some broncos fans will still argue they got the tougher game, but they at least had the home ground.

 

[Parra]

Home grounds, regions / whatever are a policy of the NRL, not features of the finals system.

 

[The_Savage_1]

both the nrl and afl systems are technically flawed because of the swapping sides of the draw to avoid rematches. in any system, you have to start with what happens if the higher ranked team wins every game and take it from there.

AFL

1v4
2v3
5v8
6v7

3v6
4v5

crossover

1v3
2v4

1v2

in the prelims it's actually a disadvantage to team 1 compared to team 2 and also a disadvantage to team 3 compared to team 4

NRL

1v8
2v7
3v6
4v5

crossover

3v5
4v6

1v4
2v3

1v2

again, the crossover creates a disadvantage in week two for team 3 compared to team 4 and team 5 compared to team 6.

 

[Parra]

both the nrl and afl systems are technically flawed because of the swapping sides of the draw to avoid rematches. in any system, you have to start with what happens if the higher ranked team wins every game and take it from there.

AFL

1v4
2v3
5v8
6v7

3v6
4v5

crossover

1v3
2v4

1v2

in the prelims it's actually a disadvantage to team 1 compared to team 2 and also a disadvantage to team 3 compared to team 4

NRL

1v8
2v7
3v6
4v5

crossover

3v5
4v6

1v4
2v3

1v2

again, the crossover creates a disadvantage in week two for team 3 compared to team 4 and team 5 compared to team 6.

Making the assumptions you make - we only need a top 4.

This is true in a comp where the rest of the 8 only make up the numbers.


This is not true for the NRL.

 

[Cheops]

Home grounds, regions / whatever are a policy of the NRL, not features of the finals system.

Yes, but the point is the McIntyre system only works if you give home ground to the teams that win. If you give it to the higher ranked team or a neutral venue, you can end up having a game where teams would have been better off losing than winning.

 

[Parra]

Home ground advantage is no myth - but it is not that good.

better off losing than winning - explain it.

 

[The_Savage_1]

Making the assumptions you make - we only need a top 4.

This is true in a comp where the rest of the 8 only make up the numbers.


This is not true for the NRL.

making the assumptions you make about the assumptions i make means we only need a top 2 because it would be a 1v2 GF every time.

the system should be flawless regardless of the merits of the lower teams.

even though it rarely happens that the favourites win every game, and surely never has in the nrl to date, doesn't mean this should be ignored because the day it does will be the day that everyone whinges and says how come so and so gets an easier game than us when we finished higher than them.

it's a simple and objective thing to ensure is correct. everything else, such as number of teams, bites of the cherry, home field advantages for each finishing position, can sort themselves out after.

 

[Parra]

it's a simple and objective thing to ensure is correct. everything else, such as number of teams, bites of the cherry, home field advantages for each finishing position, can sort themselves out after.

The NRL system is closer to this than anything else proposed to date.

 

[The_Savage_1]

The NRL system is closer to this than anything else proposed to date.

http://forums.leagueunlimited.com/showpost.php?p=6102149&postcount=119

http://forums.leagueunlimited.com/showpost.php?p=6106607&postcount=161

http://forums.leagueunlimited.com/showthread.php?t=343909

and the ARL top 5

 

[Parra]

http://forums.leagueunlimited.com/showpost.php?p=6102149&postcount=119

http://forums.leagueunlimited.com/showpost.php?p=6106607&postcount=161

http://forums.leagueunlimited.com/showthread.php?t=343909

All weak. I agree that Top 5 is best - but this is not going to happen.

Minor premiers should be given a bigger advantage - and none of the proposals you linked do this.

As is is, with a top 8, the NRL system is good.

 

[The_Savage_1]

All weak. I agree that Top 5 is best - but this is not going to happen.

Minor premiers should be given a bigger advantage - and none of the proposals you linked do this.

As is is, with a top 8, the NRL system is good.

all of them have a large advantage for the minor premiers, some arguably greater than the NRL system, such as if they lose they retain home field advantage which is not the case in the NRL system.

 

[taste2taste]

Another 'glitch' in the McIntyre system is the 4v5 game on friday night.

Neither team go's into the game knowing what they are playing for because their future is in the hands of other teams.

Most years 4 v 5 will be a dead rubber, however this year due to other results the stakes were high. The looser would be eliminated and the winner would go straight to week 3. If both teams knew this before the game im sure they would have played with a bit more desperation, especially Manly.

Had Manly of won we would of had the farcical situation were team 4 would have been eliminated and team 5 would be just 1 win away from the grand final.