What's new
The Front Row Forums

Register a free account today to become a member of the world's largest Rugby League discussion forum! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

The annual finals system debate thread

Which System ARL 95/96 or McIntyre

  • ARL 95/96 which the AFL use now

    Votes: 93 59.6%
  • McIntyre System

    Votes: 63 40.4%

  • Total voters
    156

firechild

First Grade
Messages
7,890
The only thing with McIntyre is that the first week of finals often contains less competetive games due to the difference in rankings. It seems a strange contradiction in a comp where the salary cap attempts to create more competetive games week in week out.

This part is interesting. If the salary cap was as effective as they claim, the competition would be overall much more competitive and thus the difference between 1 and 8 would be less thereby giving us 4 competitive matches regardless of who is playing. Oddly enough, in 2 of the past 3 seasons, 8th has beaten 1st so it must be fairly even.
 

gUt

Coach
Messages
16,916
I just want to know if the age-old question has an answer: is it a good thing or a bad thing to win a week off during the finals?
 

Mr Angry

Not a Referee
Messages
51,811
People talking about one system being more "fair" than the other are wrong. Both systems favor certain positions over others.

1&2 have it much better under McIntyre. You get to play the two weakest teams remaining in the comp at home for a spot in the preliminary, rather than 3&4 for the same payoff.

3&4 have it worse under McIntyre, with 4 having it probably the worst of all positions. Rather than playing for a spot in the preliminary you are playing for a chance at one. In reality there's a good chance you're simply playing for home advantage next week and a chance to watch the remaining games of the weekend without worrying about your place.

5&6 have it slightly better under McIntyre. You're playing tougher opponents, but there's a chance you're playing for a preliminary and there's every possibility you're going to end up with a second chance if you lose.

7&8 have it a fair bit worse. Playing the top two teams away to stay alive. These teams should focus on having a better regular season if they want to be treated better in the finals.

Personally I like McIntyre because it has the strongest rewards for the top two teams in the regular season. Bennett having a whinge in 09 because he had to come up against a freak team on a run that will likely never be repeated doesn't change that the system is slanted heavily in favor of the best teams in the comp. The distinction between the rest of the teams doesn't vary as much, but each spot you climb on the ladder gets you a sound advantage.

The only thing with McIntyre is that the first week of finals often contains less competetive games due to the difference in rankings. It seems a strange contradiction in a comp where the salary cap attempts to create more competetive games week in week out.
Which is why I prefer it, it truly rewards the top 2.

The rest, if you win your safe.
 

bottle

Coach
Messages
14,126
I just want to know if the age-old question has an answer: is it a good thing or a bad thing to win a week off during the finals?

I've heard Bennett asked this and even he admits he doesn't know for sure. His gUt says (see what I did there?) that he'd opt for the week off any time to get over the nigglies.
 

firechild

First Grade
Messages
7,890
In the early seasons of the McIntyre system, the week of was a bad thing. In recent years it appears to be a good thing. Some teams need momentum, some teams don't. I don't think there is a universal answer.
 

applesauce

Bench
Messages
3,573
People who claim the McIntyre system being "unfair" need to understand why it is there.

It gives the greatest possible number of chances to have any 2 teams that make the 8 to play each other in the GF.

I don't want a finals system where I know my team finishes in # we can only play 4 or 5 of the possible 7 in the GF before a ball is kicked in anger.
 

Eels Dude

Coach
Messages
19,065
People who claim the McIntyre system being "unfair" need to understand why it is there.

It gives the greatest possible number of chances to have any 2 teams that make the 8 to play each other in the GF.

I don't want a finals system where I know my team finishes in # we can only play 4 or 5 of the possible 7 in the GF before a ball is kicked in anger.

It's impossible under the McIntyre system for a GF between 1v7 and also 2v8.

Under the AFL system the only non possibilities are 5v8 and 6v7. So it is exactly the same under both systems as to the amount of potential grand final match ups.
 

muzby

Village Idiot
Staff member
Messages
45,782
i'll still always hold the top 5 in high regard... it rewards the minor premiers..

they get the first week off, and only have to win one game to make it to the grand final..
 

bender

Juniors
Messages
2,231
92 pages, i dont think i will be looking through to find the responses to my last post!

But i just want to point out this last round (and i havent even considered this round before writing this post, so it could say anything) for those who say that a top 5 keeps the season alive for more teams for longer, meaning there are less meaningless games.

This week we see the following games:

St George v Penrith - Under the top 8 it was a nothing game with zero meaning or focus. Under the top 5, it becomes an absolute blockbuster with a top class side in St George having to produce the goods in the last game, just to be a chance of progressing (their fans would then have huge interest in other games of this weekend andmight even actually go along to them). Could have expected a full house and a great buzz.

Souths v Newcastle - top 8 - This is a huge game under the top 8, hard to improve. Under the top 5, it was admittedly a nothing game expect a much smaller crowd of probably more liike about 150000.

St George v Penrith - Top 8 - A nothing game. If St George win, they might jump a spot or two, but really it doesnt make much difference (under either the AFL or the McIntyre system). Under the top 5 it is an absolute blockbuster game. they need to win this game and hope like mad that Wests and the Cowboys dont both win. A loss finishes St George. The finals start early for St George Fans, expect a bumper crowd probably a sell out.

NZ Warriors v NQ Cowboys Last Chance for the NZ. Under the top 8, another match which means little. Whoever wins probably finishes 4th and the other 6th, (although if Saints had lost it would be a totally meaningless 4v5 game). Expect a decent game with fans looking to guage form with the result of little importance (although a win would be nice to give a higher finish position) but the most important thing is for their to be no major injuries. Under the top 5, we see a blockbuster game. The winner pretty much advances and the loser has probably played their last game although if NZ wins they still have to hope St George or Wests Tigers lose. Expect the game in NZ not only to sell out, but for their to have been massive publicity. Also, interest in NZ would have been far higher in the St George Penrith game from last night and tonights Wests game. In NQ, expect the ratings for the game to be massive. Even Wests fans will be keenly interested to see whether or not they will be in the finals or if they can make a mid week 5th place playoff.

Gold Coast v Parramatta - Battle for the wooden spoon under both systems. It would make zero difference for this game.

Cronulla v Wests Tigers - Top 8 Pretty much a nothing game. Expect a poor crowd at Cronulla. Top 5 - Another important game expect Tigers fans to travel in numbers for their desperate bid for the 5, and cronulla fans to show up eager to spoil the season of the tigers, so they can at least salvage some satisfaction from the season.

Canterbury v Canberra - A meaningless game and end to a disappointing season for both sides under both systems. I suppose if Canterbury win by a mile then they may have jagged a top 8 spot technically but i dont think that would add anything to interest really.

Broncos v Manly - A similar game under any system at all. Under the top 5 it is a preview of next weekends finals match, unless storm lose by a few and Manly win by a few, so i suppose there is that slightly better interest in the game for Manly fans, and Brisbane fans do get the satisfaction of ruining Manlys chance for a week off in the finals (not that this really makes any difference).

Melbourne v Roosters - top 8 - means nothing. top 5 - Roosters get a chance to play a part in ruining Melbournes chances of a week off in the first round of finals and Melbourne fans will have greater interest, because they will want the week off.

So, after looking at the two systems, in all but one game, the top 5 would have been much more interesting this round for all of the teams. The story is similar to this for most of the season. It is a myth that the top 8 keeps it more intersting for more teams, imo. And the 2 or 3 extra games at the end of the year (some of which even in finals still arent blockbusters doesnt make up for the lost interst during in the season). A toop 5 i s the only system to go.
 
Messages
41
Souths v Newcastle - top 8 - This is a huge game under the top 8, hard to improve. Under the top 5, it was admittedly a nothing game expect a much smaller crowd of probably more liike about 150000.



So, after looking at the two systems, in all but one game, the top 5 would have been much more interesting this round for all of the teams. The story is similar to this for most of the season. It is a myth that the top 8 keeps it more intersting for more teams, imo. And the 2 or 3 extra games at the end of the year (some of which even in finals still arent blockbusters doesnt make up for the lost interst during in the season). A toop 5 i s the only system to go.

One Hundred and Fifty Thousand people for an NRL game? Bring on the Top 5! :D

Seriously though, could not agree more. Especially since the top five had playoff games for teams finishing equal fifth. The right ending to a few games could mean extra winner take all games to get into the finals proper.
 

big_matt

Juniors
Messages
392
Havent read through all 92 pages but I think that the NRL needs to reward regular season performers better. I don't think teams that finish with the same number of wins and losses should get into the playoffs at all (for example the Knights this season) but for them to then make a team who has finished minor premiers go on the road for the rest of the playoffs by beating them in a one off round 1 playoff game is crazy.
 

bender

Juniors
Messages
2,231
One Hundred and Fifty Thousand people for an NRL game? Bring on the Top 5! :D

Seriously though, could not agree more. Especially since the top five had playoff games for teams finishing equal fifth. The right ending to a few games could mean extra winner take all games to get into the finals proper.


:lol: oops, slight typo.

To continue on what i am saying though. Under the top 5, instead of 4 games, where the media focus is everywhere, we would have just 2 games to concentrate on. Everyone would be interested in Wests v St George. An absolutely huge game which is do or die for both sides. I would expect close to capacity at any ground they play at, because it would be the only game that virtually all of sydney (casual supporters) would be interested in, and it would get the entire week of media coverage to promote it. You would have to back 40,000 plus to attend and maybe even the full house sign could go up, which would be great. I think it would add 100000 to 20000 casual supporters to the crowd.

The other game is Brisbane Vs Manly. A little unlucky that this game is in Sydney, but Brisbane are a popular team, and nowadays with cheap air fares, you would expect that with the focus on this particular game in the Brisbane media, the fans would travel to SFS in healthy numbers. And, you would would expect the increased coverage and focus in Sydney to increase the crowd. Probably you would get around 25,000-30,000 people as a minimum for such a game, (although i must admit that i am confident that in time if we stuck with a top 5 all games would develop into sellouts). Under the top 8, we will see probably Melbourne v Knights - 20,000, Manly v Cowboys - 15000, Broncos v Warriors 50,000.

Okay, i admit that the top 8 probably got better crowds this week, as luck would have it for them, the Broncos got a home final in their system. If Manly agreed to swap home finals with Brisbane or if Brisbane had won by a couple of extra points last week, it would have been a lot closer in the finals. Still, I tend to think that things will get a lot closer as the series progresses.
 

Glen

Bench
Messages
3,958
It's crazy that Newcastle could have a home final in week 2 after scraping into 8th position
 

POPEYE

Coach
Messages
11,397
The same type of douche bag who wants to a billion $ TV deal and half the amount of games, and the NRL to pick the scheduling of all match's as well I guess aye popeye?

Why don't we just play the whole 16 teams in the finals and use the first part of the year as trials.
 
Top