The LJC\Stallion Thread

[Pommy]

I’ve said it once and I will say it again 98 pence short of a quid.

EDIT: This doesn’t make much sense as the post it was in reference to has been deleted lol.

 

[Stallion]

The principle of ' live and let live' is a bizarre way to look at this. That's not the real world.

Let's take out the cultural connection/loyalty to a code, like you and I have with RL, like white South Africa has to RU, and let's look at the competition aspect.

RU and RL are competing codes, just as McDonald's and Burger King are competing fast food chains. It's ridiculous to think one will give the other a leg up.

When RL split from RU in 1895 - and justifiably so - it created two competing codes, a dog eat dog environment, both fighting for the same players, the same audience. That's the consequence of the split. Sport is business, you don't give a direct competitor a slice of your pie.

Drop the vague "rest of the world" nonsense and just focus on the countries where the two codes have any meaningful footprint.

RU = British isles (Eng, Ire, Sco, Wales), France (south west), Aus, NZ, South Africa, Argentina, minor Pacific islands.
RL = England, Australia, NZ (Auckland), Fra (Catalans), PNG, minor Pacific islands.

That's it. The rest of the world don't give two hoots about either code.


England, RL is predominantly popular in towns along the M62 motorway in the north of England. This is where all 11 English teams in SL are from. Go a few miles outside these towns the sport barely exists. Major northern English cities, working class cities, Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield, there is little interest in either rugby code. RU is predominantly popular in the south of England, wealthy suburbs in the Home Counties, and the middle class in the West Country.

Ire and Scot only RU is played, both in colleges, with RU being the 4th choice sport in Ireland, and second choice in Scotland - a distant second to football.

Wales, RU is in the blood. Football would have a significant presence also. Like NZ, RL will always be a distant second to RU. While Wales RU team sell out 74k Millenium stadium for just about every game, in 2013 the Wales RL team played a RLWC game in Wales and got 5k in a small stadium in Wrexham, that's an indication of where the two codes rank there.

France, both codes support is based in the south west, though RU far outweighs RL.

Aus, you know the situation there.

NZ, RU is in the blood, RL has a decent presence but will always play second fiddle to RL.

South Africa, RU is in the blood of the white populous, football of the black.

Argentina, RU is a minority sport, played in colleges.


So what exactly do you want from each of those nine countries for RL?

We disagree. Rugby league is sprouting in various locations around the world. More than you give it credit. For you to ignore some of the shamefull repressive acts like: rugby union lobbying to have the overtaking (popularity wise )rugby league outlawed in France during the early 1940s, the continued hostile practice by union of banning players if they choose to play rugby league (even in the offseason ),government decisions against recognising rugby league as a sport in South Africa and elsewhere, the black listing of players and life bans in many nations including New Zealand (1949), the continued shunning of rugby league from elite private schools with other football codes gaining access in Australia and no doubt elsewhere, the jailing of an entrepreneur wishing to start up rugby league in the UAE in 2016 courtesy of a rugby union complaint, the non existence of the subject of rugby league in French universities which means no teachers able to teach rugby league in the schools of France, and the fact that the Australian rugby league(NRL)is the most popular domestic rugby competition in the world (bar none)and has been for numerous decades, plus the lack of rugby league people in the top end of town which leads to making things difficult for the code when negotiating with big business and government are very real factors repressing rugby league. Yet you conveniently ignore the reality for your own cosy feelgood interpretation that nothing untoward had/has happened to this code you purport to like? Shame on you. A despicable and bigoted stance along with consistent ignorance. Apologise or at least recognise the millions of people that have missed out on playing this challenging and inclusive to play rugby code. But no . The repression goes on and you turn a dismissive and blind eye to it. You are no supporter of rugby league. You are a bigot!

Had the reverse been occuring(rugby union not being recognised as a sport, not receiving govt funding, not receiving universal school access....... etc) I would have thought that unfair and unwarranted despite it being a less a attractive code to.my eye. You don't see the unfairness which ultimately sees you as a person condoning such repression. A pretty low act mate! (And I'm not your mate: its a cultural saying)

 

[DC80]

I’ve said it once and I will say it again 98 pence short of a quid.

EDIT: This doesn’t make much sense as the post it was in reference to has been deleted lol.

Makes perfect sense, it applies to every post.

Not the full shilling, a few sandwiches short of a picnic etc.

Usually I'd have long given up but I'm intrigued by his stance.

We disagree. Rugby league is sprouting in various locations around the world. More than you give it credit. For you to ignore some of the shamefull repressive acts like: rugby union lobbying to have the overtaking (popularity wise )rugby league outlawed in France during the early 1940s, the government decisions against recognising rugby league as a sport in South Africa, the black listing of players and life bans in many nations including New Zealand (1949), the continued shunning of rugby league from elite private schools with other football codes gaining access in Australia and no doubt elsewhere, the jailing of an entrepreneur wishing to start up rugby league in the UAE in 2016, courtesy of a rugby union complaint, the non existence of the subject of rugby league in French universities which means no teachers able to teach rugby league in the schools of France, and the fact that the Australian rugby league(NRL)is the most popular domestic rugby competition in the world and has been for numerous decades and the lack of rugby league people in the top end of town which leads to making things difficult for the code when negotiating with big business and government are very real factors repressing rugby league. Yet you conveniently ignore the reality for your own cosy feelgood interpretation that nothing untoward had/has happened to this code you purport to like? Shame on you. A despicsble and bigoted stance along with consistent ignorance. Apologise or at least recognise the millions of people that have missed out on playing this challenging and inclusive to play rugby code. But no . The repression goes on and you turn a dismissive and blind eye to it. You are no supporter of rugby league. You are a bigot!

Had the reverse been occuring(rugby union not being recognised as a sport, not receiving govt funding, not receiving universal school access....... etc) I would have thought that unfair and unwarranted despite it being a less a attractive code to.my eye. You don't see the unfairness which ultimately sees you as a person condoning such repression. A pretty low act mate! (And I'm.not your mate: its a cultural saying)

Phil Caplan, editor of Forty-20 magazine, RL scribe, states the sport has yet to meet the criteria for membership of Sport Accord. Contact him with your conspiracy nonsense.

"Sprouting" where "around the world"? Details please. Domestic leagues, attendances and playing numbers.

Rugby league is a working class British sport, exported to Australia via ex pats. Rugby Union is a middle class British sport, exported to outposts of the British Empire. Why would the rest of the world be interested in either? They have their own sports, i.e. their own culture.

"recognise the millions of people that have missed out on playing this challenging and inclusive to play rugby code."

Does the same apply to Gaelic football? American football? Canadian football? Handball?..and countless other sports played in regions around the world.

You seem to think Rugby league has a sense of entitlement, a special status, and that it should be played around the world. Is it because it's a British game? Why Rugby league and not the others?

 

[Stallion]

Makes perfect sense, it applies to every post.

Not the full shilling, a few sandwiches short of a picnic etc.

Usually I'd have long given up but I'm intrigued by his stance.



Phil Caplan, editor of Forty-20 magazine, RL scribe, states the sport has yet to meet the criteria for membership of Sport Accord. Contact him with your conspiracy nonsense.

"Sprouting" where "around the world"? Details please. Domestic leagues, attendances and playing numbers.

Rugby league is a working class British sport, exported to Australia via ex pats. Rugby Union is a middle class British sport, exported to outposts of the British Empire. Why would the rest of the world be interested in either? They have their own sports, i.e. their own culture.

"recognise the millions of people that have missed out on playing this challenging and inclusive to play rugby code."

Does the same apply to Gaelic football? American football? Canadian football? Handball?..and countless other sports played in regions around the world.

You seem to think Rugby league has a sense of entitlement, a special status, and that it should be played around the world. Is it because it's a British game? Why Rugby league and not the others?

I see you keep dribbling on trivialising the many examples of repression the code of rugby league has endured and suffered as a result of deceiful rugby union actions. Are you aware that in France rugby league was overtaking rugby union in a matter of 6 years up to 1941 and the French rugby union lobbied the government to outlaw rugby league?This action in itself set rugby league backwards to an impoverished code with 20000 player numbers(year 2010 figures) throughout France and rugby union playing numbers are estimated at 500000. Had natural growth been allowed It’s a given that rugby league would be the code with 500000 and not union. This, over decades, means millions of people have missed the opportunity to enjoy rugby league as it clearly would have been the mainstrean rugby code of France. You deny this repression has taken place and it has happened in other countries in other equally sordid ways from the same perpetrator in rugby union. These millions that have missed the chance to play rugby league I have mentioned are on the money estimates yet you can't figure it out. Your mathematics and your lack of compassion are consistent with your selective ignorance of the very real repression of a sport in rugby league by its well connected and deceitfull older sibling code in rugby union. I repeat you are no fan of rugby league!

 

[Pommy]

Is the France issue totally true? My understanding was that as a working class game it had links to socialist and communist factions and that’s why the Vichy government took steps to break it up.

 

[Stallion]

Is the France issue totally true? My understanding was that as a working class game it had links to socialist and communist factions and that’s why the Vichy government took steps to break it up.

That was one of the reasons used by rugby union to lobby for the code's outlawing. At the time rugby league was overtaking union in popularity and playing numbers. Go figure! Union had friends in a NAZI appointed government and lobbied to have these friends outlaw rugby league. That's the reality of it. Their is a book called the Forbidden Game that covers this disgraceful episode in French/ international sport. A telltale read and the blurb at the back of this book summarises this 'dog act' perpetrated by French rugby union.

 

[DC80]

It was scandalous, and anyone who follows RL knows the history. But blaming the Nazis (and Vichy government) for the state of RL today? Dont hear too many people in the UK today complain "The Germans bombed our chippy". It's 70 years ago.

Didn't the popularity of RL peak in France in the 1950s? That's after the war. England played Australia in the 1972 RLWC final infront of 2k in France. Blaming the Nazis for this too?

You are also massively overestimating the popularity of RU in France. There are 360k total number of RU players. It is also largely restricted to south-west France.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/8534780.stm


Where else?

 

[Stallion]

It was scandalous, and anyone who follows RL knows the history. But blaming the Nazis (and Vichy government) for the state of RL today? Dont hear too many people in the UK today complain "The Germans bombed our chippy". It's 70 years ago.

Didn't the popularity of RL peak in France in the 1950s? That's after the war. England played Australia in the 1972 RLWC final infront of 2k in France. Blaming the Nazis for this too?

You are also massively overestimating the popularity of RU in France. There are 360k total number of RU players. It is also largely restricted to south-west France.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/8534780.stm


Where else?

I note you conveniently don't mention the catalyst or source of the ousting of rugby league in France!? It was rugby union officials who lobbied the government of the time! In the book "The Forbidden Game" it clearly informs of this shamefull act being done by rugby union.
Glad you got the 350000 number for current RU player numbers as even this figure if used as an equivalent figure for what should have been people playing rugby league as the mainstream rugby code in France necessarily translates over decades into millions of players that have missed out playing the better version of rugby in rugby league. The union manouverings against RL are well documented in a number of countries. Two big examples are France and South Africa. Throw in NewZealand as well where black listing/banning of players for life occured when they chose to play rugby league toward the end of World War 11.
The closed mindedeness and deceifullness of rugby union is not common knowledge and you state "Rugby league fans know of what happened in France"? No they don't! Most of the public including RL fans are not aware of what has been going on behind the scenes against rugby league. You are doing your deflection bit for maintaining bigotry fostered underhandedly by the 'fearful' code of union over the more attractive rugby league! Read the article on South Africa(dated 2013) and the book on France I have referred to you and take the facts on board instead of not reading and twisting this shamefull reality against a sport trying to make its own way. The reverse does not occur toward union. RU is clearly using its power through connections in influential areas in many places around the world to stop/limit rugby league. You are deflecting ,twisting and denying the shamefull truth!

 

[DC80]

We just covered France. You conveniently glossed over the fact RL was at the height of its popularity in France in the 1950s, long after Vichy. What happened after the 1950s?

We have already covered South Africa and NZ. RU is in the blood of the Afrikaans. They have zero interest in RL. In NZ RU has always been king.

So RL has got no chance in South Africa, will always play a distant second to RU in NZ, and in France its popularity has dwindled since the 1950s.

Your claim that RL should be "played around the world" is total fantasy.

 

[Stallion]

We just covered France. You conveniently glossed over the fact RL was at the height of its popularity in France in the 1950s, long after Vichy. What happened after the 1950s?

We have already covered South Africa and NZ. RU is in the blood of the Afrikaans. They have zero interest in RL. In NZ RU has always been king.

So RL has got no chance in South Africa, will always play a distant second to RU in NZ, and in France its popularity has dwindled since the 1950s.

Your claim that RL should be "played around the world" is total fantasy.

No. France was not covered! You failed to concede it was rugby union officials manipulatung the outlawing of rugby-league. You emphasised the Vichy government and the NAZIs whom did rugby union's dirty work. With regard to your 1950s deflection: After being robbed of its assets and outlawed with not being able to use "rugby" in its name and players being blacklisted and a generation dying off it would ultimately negatively impact RL. And it did! Is that clear? No glossing over it. And the same for the other examples throughout the world like in South Africa and New Zealand. And there's more! You will no doubt deflect and deny such shamefull and unsportsmanlike treatment of rugby league? Sorry wrong word used "TRIVIALIZE! " Thats it ! Insignificant to millions of people whom no doubt would have enthused and loved rugby league if given a chance! Instead they were funnelled into ugly bigger (not in heart or sportsmanship but in deceit) rugby union!

 

[Stallion]

Perhaps this scheduling may be ok initially however when rugby league attains sufficient numbers their will be time clashes. As these competitions would necessarily be socially based its not wise for rugby league to settle for a second best timeslot. Rugby league will attract players keen enough to play rugby league in preference to union. The code should not shy away from this inevitability. Otherwise it will be seen as a second rate option instead of enjoyment in its on right.

 

[Pommy]

No. France was not covered! You failed to concede it was rugby union officials manipulatung the outlawing of rugby-league. You emphasised the Vichy government and the NAZIs whom did rugby union's dirty work. With regard to your 1950s deflection: After being robbed of its assets and outlawed with not being able to use "rugby" in its name and players being blacklisted and a generation dying off it would ultimately negatively impact RL. And it did! Is that clear? No glossing over it. And the same for the other examples throughout the world like in South Africa and New Zealand. And there's more! You will no doubt deflect and deny such shamefull and unsportsmanlike treatment of rugby league? Sorry wrong word used "TRIVIALIZE! " Thats it ! Insignificant to millions of people whom no doubt would have enthused and loved rugby league if given a chance! Instead they were funnelled into ugly bigger (not in heart or sportsmanship but in deceit) rugby union!

What did the nazis do for rugby union?

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

What did the nazis do for rugby union?

Saved its sick arse.

 

[Stallion]

What did the nazis do for rugby union?

Not so much the NAZIs. (In fact the NAZIs were wondering why this persecution of a sport was happening!?)It was the change in government which prompted the devious thinking rugby union officials to lobby their conservative govt friends to outlaw rugby league. If that lobbying did not happen rugby league would have been number 1 rugby code in France for sure. Just like in Australia. The code would have grown more easily elsewhere in Europe for sure!

 

[Pommy]

Not so much the NAZIs. (In fact the NAZIs were wondering why this persecution of a sport was happening!?)It was the change in government which prompted the devious thinking rugby union officials to lobby their conservative govt friends to outlaw rugby league. If that lobbying did not happen rugby league would have been number 1 rugby code in France for sure. Just like in Australia. The code would have grown more easily elsewhere in Europe for sure!

Nothing would have been a perfectly acceptable answer.

 

[Stallion]

Nothing would have been a perfectly acceptable answer.

Lol. You ask the question I give you a detailed answer!

 

[Pommy]

Lol. You ask the question I give you a detailed answer!

Which amounted to nothing.

 

[Stallion]

Which amounted to nothing.

Thanks Pommy. I had the decency to answer you in a detailed manner. You are a bit stroppy about the facts getting aired. Yes the NAZIS were only a bystander as rugby union wielded its influence to oust rugby league. It happened under a NAZI run state . Thats all.

 

[Stallion]

So what happens when rugby league gets enough players? Surely the code can run a competition and choose its days of play?! Ive found that if the competition is not played at a socially relevant or appealing day (like a Saturday in Australia ) that prospective players tend to play the code that suits their social and work life. Rugby league being a highly physical football should be played on a Saturday at a minimum just for player recovery along with social acceptance. That's my advice. Hope you see the logic.

 

[Stallion]

To the moderator, How on earth does advice on game day scheduling for a USA domestic rugby league discussion get tranferred to this thread? You are being totally unfair. (Whomever you are?) It's also unwarranted and ceasing constructive discourse for rugby league in that part of the world. You must be on the rugby union payroll doing your bit to stop.genuine progress in rugbyleague.