The Ratings Game - Sports Illustrated.

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[legend]

Mate, I am a boxing novice and I found the article interesting, especially the part about Ali being overrated. A Brad Fittler of the boxing world if you will. A good mate of mine sai Ali was the best athlete of the 20th century, now I can refute his arguments with some facts. He is also a doggies fan, so I really give it to him.

 

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[G@v]

I think we all know Ali was boxings greatest showman, but I don't know about him being the greatest boxer of all time. Like legend, I'm not much of a boxing afficianado, so it would be a bit rich for me to rate the greatest. However, my childhood memories include a couple of the early Cassius Clay fights, including the one where Henry Cooper knocked him down just before the bell at Highbury. Don't forget, Ali lost at least two of his prime years.

Larry Holmes was the champ during the dull period in heavyweight history, but is that his fault?

Who is the greatest? Surely the boxing nuts will argue that til the cows come home.

 

[Willow]

Very good post CM and thanks for typing it out.

Ali was indeed a great showman and a boxer who deserves respect.
Unfortunately, the evidence of Ali being able to take a punch is all too clear nowadays.

I agree that Rocky Marciano is very under rated. Before now, I wasn't sure if he was undefeated and 43 knock outs proves the author's point.

 

[imported_Raging Bulldog]

The fact that you've gone to the trouble of typing out the lengthy writers comments, to me shows a degree of respect towards the rest of us here Cryptic.
.... and I certainly appreciate it.
It was a great read, and thanks again Cryptic.

 

[legend]

Even though I am a boxing novice, I will start my professional career against raging bulldog in the alley way next to Sweethearts night club. I will sting like a butterfly and fly like a bee. Where's my mouthguard...........

 

[imported_Raging Bulldog]

legend,
What are you talking about bud, us devoted Bulldog fans need to stick together. lol .. lol

Anyway, I don't want to clog up this good thread with our 'conflicts.' Let's take it back into 'our' room ... The Bulldogs section. I'll check later this arvo bud, I must now switch off.
Go (mine and legend's) Bulldoggies!

 

[imported_Jackal]

Top post Cryptic Messenger.
I'm not really old enough to remember MuhammadAli's fights in real life, but I have seen many of his fights on video. His defence was not the best ever, but I think the writer is being a bit harsh. The majority of the times, his defence was not called into be used because his attack was so effective.The fact that he was so quick with his feet I think made people overlook his other qualities. He was so confident (some would say cocky) with himself and his boxing abilities, that many believed it was arrogance. He was certainly the show-pony of boxing during his time, and the fact that he marketed himself like no other sports personality in sporting history, led to him influencing people's opinions.The fact that hecontinuously announced that he was 'the Greatest', led many to unconciously believe that, just maybe he was the greatest. Excellent marketting ploy in my opinion.
The 'Rumble in the Jungle' fight was most certainly an excellent spectacle and media hype, and as the writer correctly points out, was overrated and lost amongst a number of other fights prior toand after that. From purely a boxing perspective, it had average tovery little fight qualities. But from an entertainment viewpoint, especially the lead up to the actuall fight, it was as good as it gets. The way he got a predominantly 'black' crowd behind him was truely remarkable .. especially considering his opponent (Foreman)was also 'black,' yet was ignored and practically disliked by the influenced crowd.
Ali was most certainly well ahead of any era in terms of marketing himself, and it's a credit to himself, that hewas able to'brainwash' many of the boxing public to believe that he was the best thing in boxing since 'Iron' Mike Tyson. I must give credit where it is due though, in that no boxing or sporting personality in the history of sports, in my honest opinion,has done more to bring his profession into the lime-light than Muhammad Ali, in particular from an advertising point of view. Much of the popularity and overwhelming media coverage that exists in the greatsportof boxing today, and in particular within the last 30years or so, is due to the advertising, excitementand flare that Ali created.
He was a champion representative and example of boxing .. but far from being thesports champion of the 20th Century that he was votted, or many proclaim.
The best fighter I have ever seen in my young years is Roy Jones (jnr).
The above comments are just my opinion, and in no way am I intending to upset or dissrespect anyone or there valued opinions.

 

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[imported_Aaron C]

Good one CM.
I've never been the biggest boxing fan, or claimed to know a lot about the sport, but have never missed the opportunity of watching a good fight on the box.
The comments on Ali are veryinteresting, asI knew he was a very illustrious and a'cocky' boxer, but thought his record in the ring was a lot more impressive than noted above.
Anyway, I'm a big Tyson fan. Isn't his next fight real soon?

Regards - Aaron C.

 

[imported_Aaron C]

Oh and ... it's also good to see so many smart boxing fans here that are willing to voice there opinions.
Well done guys.

 

[ozbash]

ali was the greatest of his time. he commercialised pro boxing and set it on the road its on today. wether thats good or bad is a matter of opinion.
the boxers of today would have torn ali to peices.
it was also a big move on behalf of black america to set themselves up with such a outspoken figurehead. that was ali,s biggest sucess,getting the whites to hope he would lose.....

 

[El Duque]

You could go on for a month about this and it’s been done to death for years.All I’ll say is I happen to think Marciano is overrated as he beat a lot of old men that were waaaaay past their prime(Louis,Charles,Walcott,Moore).And not all of those were convincing winsplus Moore was a light heavy champ.

 

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[El Duque]

<table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=10 width="100%" bgcolor=#ffffff border=0> <tbody> <tr> <td> El Dugue,
BULLSHIT!
First, read the following extract that I've put up, on what many regard as The Greatest Heavyweight Championship fight of all time! ... then I'll make a few short comments that you made in your dissrespectfull post .....

On Sept. 23, 1952, Marciano climbed into the ring to challenge the heavyweight champion, Jersey Joe Walcott. What followed was what many have called the greatest heavyweight championship fight of all time. In the first round, Walcott caught Marciano with a perfect left hook that dropped him for the first time in 43 fights! But The Rock was up at the count of 3,despite his corner yelling for him to take the 8 count. From then on it was a brutal fight, with Walcott using all his ring skills, hitting Marciano with shot after shot that would have knocked out most other fighters. But Rocky was relentless, taking tremendous punishment as he bulled his way into close range to land his own hard blows. By the 12th round, Walcott was ahead on all scorecards, and Rocky's corner told him he needed a knockout to win. In the fateful 13th round, Jersey Joe stepped back from Marciano, his back to the ropes, and Rocky delivered a right hand punch that would probably have felled any fighter who ever lived. Walcott slumped to the floor,one arm hanging on the lower rope, and was counted out. It took several minutes to revive him. Marciano was the new champ!&lt;!--?G!!TEXTE--&gt;
Walcott was 38 and was beating a man 9 years his junior on the cards.
As for the rest of your comments about The Rock fighting opponents who were "old men" and "waaaaaay pasttheir prime" let me make a few brief comments on those 'old men.' And how Marciano out-boxed, defeated and embarrassed each and every one of them to either win, or retain the Heavyweight title ....
Roland LaStarza - was undefeated when Marciano met him in a heavyweight championship clash, and was regarded by many as as tough as they come. He was known for his ruthlessness and his hunger.
Many people think LaStarza won their first fight but was robbed.After the second fight he lost 5 of his next 8 and was hardly considered great.
Rex Lane - was renouned for his massive and tested KO abilities, who when he met Marciano for yet another title fight, was bigger, stronger and the favourite going into the bout. He was a man that could 'knock out a brick wall senseless' as one writer once quoted.
Joe Louis - he was on a comeback trail, I'll admit, HOWEVER the opponents he met on his way to the title fight against Marciano were not only reputable and respected, but he letterally was smashing them left &amp; right. He was very impressive, and as Marciano stated once finding out that the title match was on, commented "He is the last guy on Earth that I wanna fight," hardly shows him to be a fighter past his prime.
Louis was 37,shot and needed money.
Ezzard Charles - was a former heavyweight champion when the two met, but was still very dangerous and respected by his peers (similar to the way Tyson is currently regarded). He was a fighter renouned for his stamina, boxing skill and the ability to take a punch.
Charles is probably his best opponent
Archie Moore - even though this was Marciano's final fight, to refer to Moore as an old man way past his prime is wrong and shows little knowledge about the sport ...I wonder if you know what I'm talking about? Moore was more than an even match for Marciano who was respected and admired by the boxing world.
Archie Moore was NOT a legit heavyweight and had dominated light heavyweight.He was 37-38 when he fought Marciano too.
Tragically, needlessly and unfortunately, The Rock was killed in an aircraft accident on August 31st, 1969.
Marciano's most famous saying was "Why waltz 10 rounds or so with an opponent if you could KO them in one!"
So El Passo, next time you decide to make comments about the greatest fighter in heavyweight history, who was also theONLY fighter in ANY class to go undefeated in his career, back up your claims with some facts ... or save yourself from embarrassment andkeep it shut!
He was not the best Heavyweight of all time.How many title defences did he have?
W'lock

 

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[bender]

I cannot believe there are so many people doubting Muhammad Ali is the Greatest.

Someone even said that today's boxers would take him apart. They have got to be kidding. Look at the facts. Ali was undoubtedly the best of his era. The old and slow walking Mummy George Foreman was good enough to win a World Title a few years ago. He did so by knocking out Michael Moorer (Fresh from a victory over Evander Holyfield). In fact, it also forgotten that Foreman actually went the distance with Evander Holyfield when Evander was in his prime. In fact, the only reason Evander won was because he boxed, clinched and basically frustrated George without ever hurting him. A few years later, an aging Evander shocked the world by knocking out Mike Tyson and then totally dominating him in a second fight. On the strength of those fights, I dont think it is doubted that Foreman(in his prime) would have completely destroyed todays boxers. By logic, since Ali (himself past his prime at the time) was far classier than Foreman.

On his knockout percentage, Ali was a boxer not a slugger. It is unfair to compare his percentage to other heavyweights who rely on the big hits. The knockout ratio is totally irrelevant. Ali's strength was his toughness, his speed and his psyche. I think it is safe to say that no heavyweight in the World has ever been anywhere near as good as him in either of those three categories.

If Ali was not the greatest, then who was? Consider the following dream matches:
Ali vs Louis:
Many consider Joe Louisthe greatest. He was actually the first boxer to fight properly (using proper stance and defence). But he simply does not stack up to Ali. There is no doubt that he was slower. The big problem was that he actually weighed in at a smaller body weight. How then could the slower Joe Louis possibly beat Ali when his lighter weight means he cannot hit as hard. Joe was a good smart fighter but Ali would dominate throught and take the fight by unanimous decision.

Ali vs Marciano
Marciano's record was obviously as good as it could be. There is no doubting that. Having never lost, he is probably the only person who could legitimately challenge Ali's claim as the greatest. We will never know what it takes to beat Marciano but I still could not see him troubling Ali. Ali would be too fast and Marciano would not be able to hurt Ali. Ali to get the nod on points with Ali Fitness, Speed and guile proving too much in the later rounds.

Ali vs Holmes.
Holmes had a good record and was notbeaten by anyone until Spinks came along and was just too good for him. He also was later embarased by Mike Tyson but he was far past his prime by this time and no consideration should be given to this performance. The biggest problem Ali would face in this one would be overconfidence. Holmes would need to jump on Ali early and not let up, like Ken Norton did in their fight. Holmes actually beat Norton so it is probably fair to rate Holmes a chance of beating Ali. My prediction, Ali by Split decision after rallying to take the late rounds and being stirred into action by a knockdown. Ali to win the rematch by knockout.

Ali vs Tyson
The ultimate dream match. Tyson would be the raging favourite amongst most of todays younger generation. Ali, like when he met Foreman and Liston would be ready for a fight and know he needed a big one. Tyson, ironically was actually quite dissiplined and was a far better fighter early in his career when his mentor was still alive. Ironically, his knockouts used to come from speed more than power. Tyson know doubt would start quick (like in the Bruno fight). Ali would defend and tie up early. The problem for Tyson is that Ali's chin is simply too good and he would need to go the distance to beat him. Like when Tyson fought Bonecrusher Smith and Tony Tucker, he would be tied up by Ali, In fact possibly even rope a doped. The difference being that Ali would actually hit Tyson and probably twice as often as Tyson hit him. By round 5 this one would be finished.

Ali vs Lewis
Glass jawed Lewis would be outclassed. He would hope to use his huge weight advantage but Ali has proved that he can take a punch. Lewis would not trouble Ali and he really would be little more than a punching bag for Ali. Ali by knockout in the 6th.

Ali vs Holyfield
Probably the best chance of the modern heavyweights, Holyfield could box and is stronger than Ali. This would be a good fight. But, i believe that Holyfield would be forced to stand toe to toe with Ali, like he did in the Riddick Bowe fights. Eventually, Ali's speed would tell and he would take the fight by unanimous decision.

I am probably talking to much about dream matches, but this is a good topic and i would like to raise the following names who have not been mentioned but who must be considered in the equation.

Jack Johnson. - The footage of him knocking out the middleweight champion was awesome. He looked huge and absolutely awesome. The fight in Australia against Tommy Burns? where the Police had to stop the fight must have been something special. He must be a great.

Michael Spinks - He was far too good for Larry Holmes. He was undefeated as a heavyweight champion and his record was as good as anyones. His reputation was unfairly tarnished by his last fight. He had retired and only took the Tyson fight for money he was not prepared. Anyone can be tagged by a good hit and Tyson for all his faults, was great for the fast knockout. I believe thatSpinks in his prime, or for that matter if he was given a rematch, would have beat Tyson.An in his prime Frasier was demolished by Foreman yet is still rated a great.

Gene Tunney - Defeated Jack Dempsey and was basically as good as anyone. He hled the title for a long time and could easily be regarded asthe greatest.

Riddick Bowe - He knocked out Lewis in amateurs and beat Holyfield. Yet, he simply faded from the scene after having so much trouble with Golota. If Holyfield or Tyson are considered greats, he was easily in their class and it is a shame that we did not get to see Tyson v Bowe or Lewis v Bowe.

For the record, here is my list of the Top 10 of all time.
1. Muhammed Ali
2. George Foreman
3. Rocky Marciano
4. Joe Louis
5. Gene Tunney
6. Mike Tyson
7. Jack Dempsey
8. Jack Johnson
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Michael Spinks

 

[El Duque]

Just on a quick not Bender(I'm too tired to post anything of length)
No Joe Frazier?
Tyson looked terrible against Bruno in their 1st fight and in the 2nd Bruno was too shit scared(as was Spinks)to put up a fight.
Lewis Knocked Out Bowe to win Gold at the Olympics.