The Ratings Game - Sports Illustrated.

[El Duque]

Just other points which i am sure are correct but which El Duque or others may correct my memory,
George Foreman for his title reign was considered a fraud and not ranked with Lewis and others at the time, yet if you trace back the title, his title was the real World Championship since other champions only got the belt through politics.

George was the linear Heavy champ untill he lost to Shannon Briggs who lost to Lewis etc. etc.
George won the WBA and IBF titles off Moorer but then was stripped of the WBA title for refusing to fight Tony Tucker.He then lost the IBF belt for refusing to grant Axel Schultz a rematch.Schultz was robbed in that fight and it was a disgraceful decision so he deserved to be stripped IMO.

 

[El Duque]

On the first Bruno fight, I dont think Tyson was as bad as you say. IN fact I thought he was in pretty good form so to speak. Bruno, coming in at the same odds as Ali was in his fight against Liston, actually fought well and did exactly what Ali would do Tyson in dancing around and sticking out the jab. Difference being that Ali would be 10 times quicker and better and could actually take a punch. He'd have tore Tyson apart by the sixth and would have won via TKO, using the infamous Ali wind up punch.

Just watched the fight again and I can't see Bruno dancing.Tyrell Biggs danced a bit but not Bruno.
Tyson really looked bad and it was because he had got rid of Kevin Rooney.He never looked anywhere near as bad when Rooney was in his corner.

 

[bender]

El Duque

Perhaps dancing was not really the right description. But from memory he was staying at long distanceand jabbing, which unsettled Tyson who for a long time was frustrated that he could not move inside.It has been a long time since the fightso my memory could have totally failed me but I am sure I remember arguingat the time that if Bruno's long range jab could trouble Tyson then Ali would have taken him apart. Anyway, since you havejust watched the tape, is that close to a fair summary or has my memory totally warped?

Dave Sands,
Was Dave Sands the bald fellow (Prettybig deal in the 80s) who went for about 8 years undefeatedbefore he met the then World Ranked Brian Janssen. If it is the same person, I am pretty sure that Brian Janssen won the rematch. Both were excellent boxers.

Just some more old names from Aussie boxing which might ring a fetw bells, What about Doug Sams, Emanual Otti, Reg Layton, Shane Know, Renato Cornett, Stefan Scriggins, Peter Mtrvski, Allan Moore, Mark Janssen, Rod Carr, Gary Wills, Dale and Ernie Artango, to name a few. All pretty reasonable. As for heavyweights, I always thought that Craig Peterson coulld have been half reasonable at one stage.

 

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[imported_Roopy4246]

Dave Sands was one of five aboriginal brothers from Newcastle who were all great boxers. Dave was the best of them and was world ranked before dying in a car accident in the sixties I think. Many thought he was a chance to win a world title.
A sad after note to his story is that his grave in Stockton, a suburb of Newcastle, has recently been vandalised.
Another sad note to the Sands story is that all the brothers except Dave ended up sustaining brain damage and all died in psychiatric hospitals.

 

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[The Dawson Twins Minus 1]

Bender -This on Dave Sands from http://cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/sands-d.htm:
<center> <h3>Dave Sands</h3>Born: David Ritchie, February 4, 1926 Burnt Ridge, NSW, Australia
Died: August 11, 1952 Dundog, Newcastle, Australia (Automobile Accident)
Height: 5-10
Professional Record: 93-8-1 (62 kayos) 2 NC</center> <blockquote> Like legendary Middleweight and fellow countryman Les Darcy, Dave Sands will be remembered as a career that was tragically left unfufilled.
Sands came from a very large boxing family; his father Ritchie and uncle George fought, as well as five of his brothers: Ritchie, George, Clem, Alfie, and Russell. Sands turned pro in 1943, and by 1946 he had captured the Australian Middleweight title, which he would hold till his death. In all, Sands would go on to capture the Australian Light Heavyweight and Heavyweight titles, a feat that was later matched by Tony Mundine in the 70's.
Sands took his first step up in world-class competition in 1949 when he took on veteran contender Tommy Yaroz, losing a decision. He then set his sights on Europe, defeating Jan de Bruin and French contender Robert Villemain. Finally Sands took on British Empire Middleweight champion Dick Turpin. Sands made a definitive statement when he knocked out Turpin in one round, firmly establishing himself as a contender.
Sands later added a pair of victories over future Middleweight champ Bobo Olson. By 1951 he was the number two contender in the world behind Sugar Ray Robinson and Randy Turpin. Efforts to match Sands with Turpin proved futile, as it was widely believed that Turpin would have nothing to do with Sands after witnessing what had happened to his brother Dick.
A title shot never came for Sands unfortunately. While driving in the country on August 11, 1952, Sands rolled his truck and was killed. Later that year Sugar Ray Robinson retired, vacating the Middleweight title. The title which may have very well been his to win, was won by Bobo Olson, a man whom he had beaten twice. </blockquote> Regards, TDT-1 <blockquote> </blockquote>

 

[imported_Jackal]

Testing.

 

[imported_Jackal]

Sorry about that, but this is the fourth time I'm posting this so I thought I' do a test first.
Cryptic Messenger,
Just a couple of questions about your most recent post on Mike Tyson. Whislt I do indeed agree with a few things you said about Tyson, I think you were abit harsh about others. You made mention of Tysons failures at the hands of Holyfield, but don't you think it's abit unfair to come to a conclusion and judgementbased only on his failure at the hands of Holyfield alone. I think his performances apart from Holyfield have been pretty awaesome. I don't know his pro record, but apart from Holyfield and one other (his name aludes me), Tyson has been the fighter for awhile now .. I think anyhow.
Do you think that if Tyson had not have been convicted of rape and in turn served jail time, he would still be the dominant force he once was? I know the Hollyfield bitting incident was pretty awefull, but prior to that Tyson was "the game". .. and it's unfair how people have ditched him since. That's what I think anyway.
I value every bodies opinions here, and in particular yours, but I think you're beeing abit harsh on this occasion. I'd like to hear your comments whenever is suitable for you.
Thanks alot mate.

 

[bender]

Thanks for the refresh, I have read about Dave Sands and he would make my list. The other guy I thought he was might have been Dave Russell? Definitely not in Sands class but still a tough guy I would rate on a par or slightly better than say Julian Holland.

On Bruno Tyson, I guess it was that left from Round 1 that I was remembering. Although I still believe the style of fightin Jabbing and holding that you have described is the tactic Ali would have used to beat Tyson. The jabbing and missingof Bruno would be replaced by jabbing and hitting by Ali. In fairness to Tyson, in those early days (Particularly pre Bruno) he was very good at slippingpunches.

Just a few more random tidbits and thoughts some might find interesting, (again feel free to correctany errorsin my memory of things).

Gene Tunney (if it wasnt him it was Jack Dempsey) was once mugged at central park when he was in his 80s or 90s. This incident was often used in the promotion of the later George foreman fights where it was said that an old man never loses his strength.

Muhammed Ali actually fought Japenese Professional Wrestling champion Antonio Inoki in a boxing versuswrestling match. I never saw the fight which from reports wasa complete flop with Inoki lying on his back and kicking Ali to stop him from getting near him. IN his next fight, Ali actually lookeda bit slow on his feet and remarks were made about the number of kicks he took to the legs. For mine a Tyson vs Hollywood Hogan would be the ultimate dream match up.

All world champions were unanimous, until Leon Spinks was stripped of a title for not defending in time. When Ali beat Spinks in the rematch, he was not actually the Unanimous champion. The belts were not unified again until Tyson beat Bonecrusher Smith and Tony Tucker.

The Tyson - Bonecrusher was a eagerly awaited. Bonecrusher beat Tim Witherspoon in a round and it was thought that this would be a 1 or 2 round pearler. Bonecrusher fought defensively and it ended up going the distance in a disappointing bout.

Trevor Berbick ended Muhammad Ali's career after Ali was clearly past it (Coming off Alis very disappointing loss to Larry Holmes. Berbick was the same champion who was knocked out by a 19? year old Mike Tyson, the youngest ever heavyweight champion.

 

[El Duque]

Tyson was 20 when he beat Berbick which made him the youngest Heavy champ beating Floyd Patterson's record.
He really became the undisputed champ when he beat Spinks who was stillthe linear champ(he'd been stripped of the IBF title for fighting Cooney)
Leon Spinks was stripped of the WBC belt for fighting Ali in a rematchinstead of facing Norton.

 

[CanadianSteve]

Raging Bulldog (#36): The Ali-Marciano "computer fight" was live action. It was filmed in 1970 during Ali's exile from boxing. As El Duque described in post#26 the 2 men filmed many short rounds and several endings. Supposedly a computer picked the ending that was shown, a Marciano victory. I recall it as looking dark, like an older black and white fight film, but it didn't look like they were really connecting with punches.
A great book for some of you boxing fans would be "The Greatest: My Own Story" by Ali and writer Richard Durham. Written in 1975, I'm not sure if it's available now. It goes up to the time of his Foreman fight and the 3rd Frazier fight. One of the best parts in the book is a transcript of a conversation between Ali and Joe Frazier around 1970-71, when Joe was the new champ and Ali was the champ in exile. They recorded their conversation in a long car ride, just the 2 of them. Here is part of that conversation:
"FRAZIER:... You so fast, why you let them have Marciano whip you?
ALI: You mean in that phony computer fight? You know that was fake. Whites want to see Marciano go down as the greatest heavyweight of all time. When he wasn't. Leaving off myself and you, who you think would be the best two to fight the all-time title?
FRAZIER: Oh, like Joe Louis and Jack Johnson.
ALI: That's who I think.
FRAZIER: Well, I mean, really, guys like Dempsey, Marciano, Tunney can fight, but they no comparison to the black man. In ring power, I mean. You got one or two white guys that may really fight. Nobody's overlooking any good fighter. But they really no comparison to the best black fighter. He got more.
ALI: Right

 

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[CanadianSteve]

CM: Good post. I agree that though the early Tyson was a fearsome knockout puncher, he didn't face many quality opponents. The same was true of Larry Holmes, who was a very good champion. But he became champ just after the strong heavyweight era of Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Shavers and the young Holmes. The heavyweight division has declined since then in terms of number of quality fighters.
Tyson certainly lost some ability while in prison, but his defeats by Holyfield still showed what a quality boxer could do against him. I still remember Holyfield's cornerman in the first fight calling him to "bully the bully", to stand up to Tyson and outbox him, and he was able to do it

 

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[imported_Jackal]

Thanks Cryptic for replying to my question, and I appreciate your comments as I do understand where it is your're comming from. Good post.
Cheers mate