The world's gayest nation

[Anonymous]

...to all those people who think that myself and others who share and articulate my views are homophobes and should shutup - get a life. This is debating forum where different views are needed.

Hear that everybody...? just shutup and let goangod talk.

If its Ok for me to have a say... how about the 'defacto benefits' which you spoke of earlier? Exactly what is a 'defacto benefit'?

 

[Terminator]

Brilliant Goangod, I wish I could put it so clearly and percisely, everything you said there was true.
Particularly the end of the fifth, I really agreed with most of all.
The only thing I disagree with you on is the Euthanasia issue, I would rather see someone given the right to end their life in comfort than live and die in agony.

 

[salivor]

And this is a lesson for you Salivor. Whatever social change you want to make, there is always someone willing to go further. I think the comments by Thierry surprised you - how could someone possibly support pedophiles and their 'rights'? But someone did - and you were trapped the very logic that you used against me re homosexuality.

Goangod - Do you really think I am so naive to think that there aren't paedophile apologists out there? Do I really need to repeat my child abuse comment which I've made a million times in this thread? You know where I stand on this issue. We can agree to disagree that lowering the age limit is the next progression, don't tell me its written in revelations somewhere ;-) .

 

[salivor]

BTW goangod. Its great to see that it only took you 16 pages to finally give us your full view on the matter.

 

[MR GEORGE]

probably more open about it gays not closet gays.

 

[cheese]

here here, goangod!

IMO, the salient point amongst this, is that there is always going to be a minority that will try to push the boundaries as far as they possibly can...............And the more that society gives into the minoritys(hence "MINORITYS"), the further they will push the limits.....

Just by the sheer fact that an organisation such as NAMBLA is legally allowed to exist, tells me that there is massive problems in our world at the moment.........Problems that wont be adressed due to the fact that our politically correct society has everyone by the balls

 

[Moffo]

A compelling argument Goangod

Tend to agree with a lot of it

Cheers,
Moffo

 

[Terminator]

Well summed up, keep the good fight up buddy.

 

[eloquentEEL]

goangod, you've stated an assumption about where you think society is headed. i have basically explained why i disagree with your assumption in my previous post (by explaining the differences between homosexuality and other terms mentioned).

so far i can see several arguments used against homosexuality thus far:

1 - moral grounds - your entitled to yours, but others are entitled to theirs (you have pretty much eliminated this argument yourself)

2 - less healthy - we have shown that other less healthy activities are perfectly acceptable

3 - it's unnatural - people have shown that it's natural as it occurs amongst other animals

4 - they are in the minority - just because someone is in a minority doesn't make them wrong

5 - if you start accepting homosexuality, you will start accepting incest, beastiality, etc. - i have explained the differences without challenge

there's probably one or two other obvious arguments and rebuttals I've missed there, but nothing there is particularly convincing about what is wrong with homosexuality itself

 

[cheese]

I think the pre-schooler from 'kindergarten cop' summed it up nicely...

"boys have penis, girls have vagina"

 

[Terminator]

Exactly!

 

[hrundi99]

This is how I see things.
Sex is between a male and a female for the purpose of procreation or pleasure within marriage.

How do you explain masturbation, or do you think it's worthy of having both hands lopped off?

I admire your concern about society going to hell in a handbasket, but I can't agree with your assertions on homosexuality.

As you've done in the past, you have picked and chosen your "statistics" and quotes to suit your argument.

A fundamental thing which you have failed to mention is the psychological impact of sexual repression. Pretending to be heterosexual when you know you are homosexual often leads to deep-seated emotional issues. This denial of one's sexuality and sexual expression isn't unique to homosexuals. Why have there been so many problems with clergy? Those who have been born with the equipment and the natural sexual desire and are unable to use it are heading towards trouble.

Animals are built to f$&k. You cannot deny this base factor.

The brain is a complex piece of machinery. It isn't difficult for certain parts of it to vary.

Why am I a breast man and not a bum/leg man?

Why can my wife appreciate the sexual attractiveness of someone like Angelina Jolie without being a card-carrying lesbian?

 

[brook]

I havent read every post but it does seem that no one has raised the possibility that Australia may not be the world's gayest nation but instead, just a little more accepting of Gays and therefore more Gays are coming out.

Looking at the first posts, the original subject matter from goangod was to do with a survey by a condom company which stated that Australia was the 'World's gayest nation'.

The whole notion that such a thing can be divided up into regions is absurd and the original post was nonsense... especially considering that the survey was conducted by Durex.

In any case, the initial suggestion was about abortions and declining population... a very narrow perspective and one which immediately set up a platform of morality. That is, wild generalisations held by a select few.

But for some reason, the immigration debate didnt get a look in. Instead, 'the goangod' launched into an attack on the Gay community... that is until he petered out.

Also interesting is that for an Australian survey, an awful lot of USA statistics were used to back up the homophobic argument.

But the funniest thing about this discussion is that we've seen the subjects of paedophilia, beastiality, incest, divorce, defacto relationships and even necrophilia all given a good run as if this was in some way connected to homosexuality. Its been a real hoot.

in my defence...

with respect I think you'll find most of us leftys see a lower birth rate as a positive keeping our population and sustainable levels

Its normally the right who bleat about the need to increase our population.

As for the rest, I doubt Australia (or America) has a great deal (if any) more homosexuals per population than anywhere else in the world - simply with less persecution we have a lot more willing to stand up and be open about it.

Still if we do I can't see how its any business of anyone elses...

I gotta say this argument is getting tired though - I don't think any new points have been raised in the last 6 or so pages

 

[Anonymous]

Brook,
I think your post was pretty much spot on... as were a few others who attempted to raise similar points.

Unfortunately, any attempt at rational thought (like yours) was over-run by a quagmire of twisted morality... as if the sky is going to fall in simply because we have a few gays as neighbours. IMO, the notion that Gays are the thin edge of the wedge for the great array of social evils is a desperate position to take.

With the population thing... I have no problem with Australia having a declining birth rate - the environment is already under too much stress. Neverthless, people are concerned about declining birth rates and thats their choice to be worried. In simple terms, an alarming decline in the population could be countered by an increase in immgration.

 

[madunit]

I can't see what all the concern about a declining birth rate is all about. More people in the country means more goods need to be produced, putting more pressure on the environment, forcing global issues such as Global warming to occur at a much quicker rate. Every country should take steps to halt their population growth rate ASAP before we get too overcrowded like in India, which then leads to food shortages, starvation, diseases etc-ie- like in many African countries.

I don't think that a gay community or having more gay people than any other country is the cause of this either. People, women especially are not interested in having a family as early in their lives now as much as they used to. This is the reason.

I also don't think that it is safe to have any immigrants coming to the country for a while either-what with the risk of SARS and other diseases getting around. Also, the threat of terrorists is still strong.

 

[bazza]

To add some more to this fascinating discussion, it appears that some think that gayness is all in the genes

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/10/12/1065917279429.html

 

[millersnose]

i was rather hoping to see the end of the gay thread

how unaustralian of you bazza

 

[Dean Moriarty]

By the title of the thread, I would have thought it was very Australian. Dinky-di, in fact. :lol:

 

[milchcow]

I apologise for entering this thread so late, but I only just noticed it, but I really thought I had to reply to this.

Since the 1960s, we here in the West have embarked on an aggressive campaign of social reengineering with devastating consequences

The notion that sex was for procreation or pleasure within marriage was challenged and discarded - first by academia, then by the wider population. Now sex could be outside marriage in any relationship.

Goangod, if you believe that the concept of sex outside marriage and for pleasure was only deemed normal due to revolutions in the 60s then you are severely mistaken. People have been having sex for pleasure for as long as people have been having sex.

There is a reason why prostitutes are known as "the oldest profession". The demand for them has been around at least as long as marriage has.

This then paved the way for homosexuality. If the primary purpose of sex was only for pleasure, then how could homosexual acts possibly be wrong? Firstl adopted by academia, then by the wider population, homosexuality gradually began to be accepted.

I'm not sure how you make this leap.
People sleep with people they like, whether they be homosexual, heterosexual or whatever. Homosexuals didn't suddenly start sleeping with each other in the 60s, they've been doing it forever. Recent social changes have just let them admit they are doing it, that's all.

The next logical step of the 'sex for pleasure' mentality was abortion. Since sex was primarily for pleasure, pregnancy was not something to be desired, but rather an unwanted consequence to be halted. The concept of life as sacred had vanished, as part of an ongoing campaign of desacralisation and secularisation. Abortion then, should be provided to women at any stage of pregnancy since it was viewed as a fundamental human right.

I think what paved the way for abortion was medically safe techniques for performing them. Previous to that people would just abandon unwanted babies, hardly a more acceptable solution.
And again this is something that has been going on for thousands of years, it is not a recent belief that children are a sometimes unwanted side affect of sex.
I am not saying that this is a good thing, only that it is not a new concept.

In terms of consequences - well look around at the social wreckage that constitutes much of the West today. Let's look at specifically Australia. Today, almost 50% of marriages end in divorce - facilitated by no fault divorce laws. The impact on society and on the children who are involved has been incalculable - research only now is beginning to discover this,
What are the costs to society of a child without a father? Or without a mother? A child, we are told, can be raised by anyone and still grow up normally. There is no 'ideal' family since all family types are 'equal'. The traditional family has collapsed.

Fourthly, sexual liberation has led to an epidemic of STDs and AIDs among the sexually active population.

Fifth, Australia now has one of the highest, if not the highest, suicide rate in the world. Our contempt for life is further highlighted by the fact that we have one of the highest rates of drug usage in the world and also one of the highest rates of child abuse. Amidst all our wealth, all our progress, all our riches - in our sexually liberated society people are finding not happiness - but despair.

do you have any evidence at all that sexual liberation is responsible for a high suicide rate.

Euthanasia, I think will become the norm. If life is not sacred, as people live longer, they become a burden on our society. Already this campaign is underway in this country - it will be legalised within the next 5 years.

This again has nothing to do with homosexuality.
Yes euthanasia will probably be legalised soon, but that has something to do with people having control over their own lives, not whether they want to sleep with their 6 year old daughter. This is really irrelevent to the whole debate.

I see the culture of our society disintegrating - from one of an ethic of hard work, respect and sacrifice, to one of greed, decadence, and moral emptiness in the mindless pursuit of pleasure.

I too see our culture disintegraing, but can attribute it to the greed orientated bugger-the-consequences attitude people have today with just as much evidence as you have just done by claiming it was all caused by the free love revolution of the 60s.


Homosexual relationships are about giving people the choice to live their lives how they want to, without causing harm to anyone else. It is not connected to abortion, euthanisia or lack of respect for other humans lives at all.

 

[Anonymous]

Homosexual relationships are about giving people the choice to live their lives how they want to, without causing harm to anyone else. It is not connected to abortion, euthanisia or lack of respect for other humans lives at all.

Great response milchow and you successfully countered every issue that Goangod seem to have.

But if you look at the length and breadth of the thread, you'll see that wisdom like yours has pretty much fallen on deaf ears. Goangod is convinced that homosexulaity is the root cause of society's woes and no amount of commonsense will change his view.