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Thoughts on society.....

El Duque

Bench
Messages
3,845
Why does someone have to know how the joint was made?

No bastard could figure it out so they invented this Bruce aka God dude as an answer so kids would stop asking questions.

Faith wasMiss Bethlehem yonks ago. She was also a good root from all accounts. That's where the saying "you gotta have Faith" came from. It has nothing to do with George Micheal.

 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
110,137
Marcus: "If you believe in the big-bang theory, how exactly can nothing be created from nothing?"
Before the big bang we had gas... loads of it... even more than you can emit.

The only reason you're asking that stupid question is because you think you know the answer.. ie God the almighty.
You think that I don't have answer and you're right.

I've read all the theories including the bible's, and as far I'm concerned its a toughie.
One theory that is gaining momentum is that we have an inaccurate perception of time ie as a science.

To say 'what is before' you have to have something there to observe it and seeing it was so bloody long and I wasn't there, I can't say for sure. The religious viewpoint is that 'God was there'. While Atheists say, 'no one was there'.

Furthermore, there is theory that time didnt even exist. It can get quite mind boggling.
I do tend to believe that time is circular and although the theories are there, we are only beginning to understand that there is more to the universe than just space.

Nevertheless, I don't have the answer to Life, the Universe and Everything. But I'm not taking the easy way and seeking my answers from a church.The universe isbigger than that.

Now, answer my question.. if you can.

Marcus: "On evolution... if humans came from apes... then why do we still have apes? - why haven't they evolved? "

Apes have evolved and continue to do so. Your assertion that they haven't evolved is wrong.
Evolutionists don't neccessarily believe that humans come from apes.... again, you are wrong. Thats something that people just say to make themselves feel smug and superior...
To be honest, it offensive and almost a put down of Apes.

Answer this. Do you understand that species are evolving?



 
D

dubopov

Guest
Marcus and Willow....Have I got news for you !!.......I have evidence to suggest that humans are evolving into apes !!....As a supporter of the MIGHTY DRAGONS I have witnessed this transformation when I go to Brisbaneto see usplay the Broncos..Not only have I been surrounded by Rock Apes I have also seen evidene of a new breed of Cyclops...The one eye firmly planted in the furrowed brow....
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
110,137
Dubopov: "I have evidence to suggest that humans are evolving into apes... I have witnessed this transformation when I go to Brisbane"
Lol... now that is really getting offensive to Apes.

Going to match at the ANZ is like going behind enemy lines where its a prerequisite to wear a Hawaiian shirt and get indigestion.
 
C

CanadianSteve

Guest
Before the big bang we had gas... loads of it... even more than you can emit.

The only reason you're asking that stupid question is because you think you know the answer.. ie God the almighty. Willow

Then where did the gas come from, and what sparked it to create the Big Bang

I'll re-post the 2 arguments from Thomas Aquinas that answer this puzzle: Emphasis in bold is mine. Sorry for the length but he says it better than I can:
"The first and more manifest way is the argument from motion. It is certain, and evident to our senses, that in the world some things are in motion. Now whatever is in motion is put in motion by another, for nothing can be in motion except it is in potentiality to that towards which it is in motion; whereas a thing moves inasmuch as it is in act. For motion is nothing else than the reduction of something from potentiality to actuality. But nothing can be reduced from potentiality to actuality, except by something in a state of actuality. Thus that which is actually hot, as fire, makes wood, which is potentially hot, to be actually hot, and thereby moves and changes it. Now it is not possible that the same thing should be at once in actuality and potentiality in the same respect, but only in different respects. For what is actually hot cannot simultaneously be potentially hot; but it is simultaneously potentially cold. It is therefore impossible that in the same respect and in the same way a thing should be both mover and moved, i.e. that it should move itself. Therefore, whatever is in motion must be put in motion by another. If that by which it is put in motion be itself put in motion, then this also must needs be put in motion by another, and that by another again. But this cannot go on to infinity, because then there would be no first mover, and, consequently, no other mover; seeing that subsequent movers move only inasmuch as they are put in motion by the first mover; as the staff moves only because it is put in motion by the hand. Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God. The second way is from the nature of the efficient cause. In the world of sense we find there is an order of efficient causes. There is no case known (neither is it, indeed, possible) in which a thing is found to be the efficient cause of itself; for so it would be prior to itself, which is impossible. Now in efficient causes it is not possible to go on to infinity, because in all efficient causes following in order, the first is the cause of the intermediate cause, and the intermediate is the cause of the ultimate cause, whether the intermediate cause be several, or only one. Now to take away the cause is to take away the effect. Therefore, if there be no first cause among efficient causes, there will be no ultimate, nor any intermediate cause. But if in efficient causes it is possible to go on to infinity, there will be no first efficient cause, neither will there be an ultimate effect, nor any intermediate efficient causes; all of which is plainly false. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God."
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
110,137
God.
Theres that link again and all I find is another Christian site. Where is God? ;)

Willow: Before the big bang we had gas... loads of it... even more than you can emit."
Canadian Steve. "Then where did the gas come from, and what sparked it to create the Big Bang"

Firstly, I ask you to refrain from repeating posts that refers to marcus as being full of gas. Its in the hansard that where it should remain. :D

Now, in all fairness, did you actually read anything that I said in the upper posts? (tired of numbering them, look up). I made a clumsy attempt to explain my position regarding evolution and I even attempted the big question of life and the universe... hey, give me a break.

All you do is refer to some doctrine... a much easier road imo.

I try my hardest not to copy and paste from other websites. I know this a style oft used but imho, if you can't use your memory and opinion to put forward a point then it becomes hard to resource the passion of your view.

I mean this as an observation and not as a criticism.

Tell me what you think, not what some preacher thinks.
 
C

CanadianSteve

Guest
All right, I will try to paraphrase the argument in my words.

1.There is motion in the world. Something moving must have been put in motion by something else. If you take that back infinitely, or to the beginning, there must have been something that was the first mover, or originator of motion, which had nothing before it.

2. Things happen by cause and effect. Taking all the causes and effects in history back t the beginning, as above, there must have been some original, first cause of everything, which required no previous cause or mover. There is nothing in nature like this. So the description of an eternal, pre-existing God, with no beginning, fits the bill for what must have brought the universe into being.

That's why I questioned your comment about gas being there before the big bang. That's still a natural substance. How did it come to be there?

I agree with your earlier comment that none of us were there "in the beginning", so it wasn't an observable event. That's why I thing evolutionists can't claim they have "scientific" proof of evolution or the beginning of the universe. It's not like an observable, repeatable science experiment. So I say the Creation argument (of which there are variations) is as valid, and makes more sense to me.


 

imported_JoeD

Juniors
Messages
653
CS: Aquinas' argument for the existence of a god is not a bad one. However it certainly does not prove there to be a christian god or even only one god. There might dozens of them. Also can you explain god's personality change from the old testament to the new testament.

As for your argument for there being free will, i'll take your example. You say that when confronted with an ethical matter on say whether or not to steal or cheat my 3 factors influence but 'you' are ultimately free to decide what to do. But whois 'you'? 'You' are the 3 factors i mentioned earlier, genes, past experience, environment. Your actions are determined by who you are, you cannot change who you are, therefore you cannot change your actions.

As for evolution I still don't really buy it. Somebody said earlier that scientists were arguing over whether bonobos were related to chimps. Now in evolutionary terms this seems a relatively simple question to ask. If they don't know that how can they say either way thathumans are related to apes. I can see how species adapt to their new surroundings and physical features are accentuated due to their environment. However I can't see how natural selection made say the first air breathing animal. Or the first flying animal. What about the first multicelled organism that came from a single cell organism. Thats a pretty big evoltionary jump, doubling your cellular makeup. Also we here that evolution takes millions of years, how come then the last ice age, which only lasted thousands of years, produced so many different species?

Also if there are any anthroplogists out there, if species are continuing to evolve how can we classify them? homo erectus was around 1.8m years ago to 300,00 years ago. How different were the homo erectus 1.8m years ago to the ones that were around 1.5m years later?



 
Messages
4,446
Willow, personally speaking, i dont see a problem with people posting snippets off other websites to back up their points. Its a sound practice in the world of report and essay writing. Perhaps the size of the cut and pastes could be reduced though ;)

Religious types sticking together? lol, u know full well that the same argument could be applied to the 'non religious' types in this discussion

Thanks for the hat dip as well ;)

And mate, i thought that in another discussion, you said that you believed in the theorem that not everything has to have a beginning, in order to explain the beginnings of the world. Is this true?

Marcus - Is it quite common for Lutherans to have a diverse set of beliefs such as yours? Im only asking that because i would've thought, like most religions, they have a large group of fundamentalist believers.

Moffo
 
C

CanadianSteve

Guest
JoeD: Good questions on evolution.

On God's "personality change". God has always been the same. People like to understand Him in a simple way, but He has the qualities of judgment and anger shown in the OT and the qualities of love, compassion, and forgiveness in the NT. You can find examples of all these qualities in both testaments, but people tend to emphasize or remember the stern God of the OT and the loving God of the NT.

However it certainly does not prove there to be a christian god or even only one god. True, but the God of the bible fits the description of Aquinas's "first mover."
 

imported_JoeD

Juniors
Messages
653
Here is one for you CS: Christianity was started only 2000 odd years ago. Did all the people around before then go to hell?
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
110,137
Canadian Steve:
There is still debates in scientific circles of the big bang but there is substantial physical evidence to support this theory. Prior to this, we had a slow endless process of gas and compounds... and some say we didn't even have time, but I don't know about that. I guess its true that we didn't have time as we understand it now.

Conversely, religious folk say that God was there in the 'beginning' (whenever that was) which has no physical evidence to back it up.

Science has evidence, Religion has opinion (or faith).

My problem with God and the universe is that it defies logic... he must have been there forever or something just for the argument to have a crumb of credibility.

The bible says that God was there 'in the beginning' - well, what is 'the beginning'?
Was Godjust there biding his time and looking for ways to design the galaxies etc...?

You see, whilereligion tries to dismantle the Big Bang theory by saying 'nothing can be created from nothing', the question must be asked was happening prior to God and 'in the beginning'. Both sides are arguing the same point at opposite ends.

At least Science is trying to answer this paradox.

Moffo:
I'm not not talking about snippets off websites to back up points and the size of the copying isnt an issue either. I'm referring to wholesale copying and pasting as a way to provide an 'answer'. Canadian Steve was good enough to understand what I was I saying and gave me an answer which was more in line with his opinion.

I was joking about the sticking together bit. If I asked a question, is Rugby played in heaven?, I'm sure you and Marcus would disagree.

"i thought that in another discussion, you said that you believed in the theorem that not everything has to have a beginning, in order to explain the beginnings of the world"

Crikey did I? I'm pretty good at remembering most things.
I do think that time is an understated component of the universe. We are still stuck in the dimension of space and take time for granted. While we have the concept of distance and space mastered, we are still a long way off grasping time.

JoeD:
I wouldn't write off evolution just because Science is still grappling with the questions.
From what I know, there is section of people who are arguing that Chimpanzees and Bonobos are not related. I don't know the background to this and I don't think you do too There are still Scientists who believe that the Greenhouse Effect is a myth so you see, there will always be a gulf of opinions.

In any case,the majority of research supports that both Chimps and Bonobos belong on the same evolutionary branch and are at the very least, cousins.

There are also many arguments amongst creationists too but they generally seem content to believe what they read in the bible.

With Bonobos and Chimpanzees.... they have two completely distinct social orders which by all accounts have been brought about their environments. This is the crux of the matter... and as I've said a dozen times before, this is more in line with the subject matter.
 

Leisotto

Juniors
Messages
17
Hmmm, its an interesting concept. Time has always existed. Time is nothing more than a measurement. I think its drawing a long bow to suggest that time didn't exist. Its bordering on the ridiculous to be honest.

Science only has some answers. Science cannot explain how the world begun (as this thread has proven), science cannot dissprove religion, science cannot tell us what the future will be like, science cannot dissprove that Jesus came down, died and rose again 3 days later. In some ways, science creates more questions than answers.

Actually, i have a question. Willow, and co, do you believe that Jesus indeed existed on Earth 2000 years ago? If so, how much of the story do you believe?


"I can sort of see where this is leading. Why is it that creationists find it so easy to believe that god just always was yet they try to punch holes in the arguements of evolutionists who try to suggest that some things were just always there."

Because its a belief that God created all. Its the belief in a higher being. That is exactly what God is. God is a different sort of being, far from a human and his activities aren't confined to the limitations of humans. Its hard for people to find agreement with evolutionists about the 'things were always there' theory. It goes against logic to be honest. Things don't just 'exist'. To suggest otherwise goes against all common sense. IMO, its a cop-out as no other explanation fits.

If anyone could please explain to me how things could just 'exist', id be happy to know. Actually, it would be good if a pro-evolutionist could answer this one.

Regards,
Leisotto
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
110,137
Leisotto:
I thought this was thread about 'thoughts on society'. Perhaps you should have called it, "Who is religious like me?'

"Science only has some answers. Science cannot explain how the world begun (as this thread has proven)..."
With respect Leisotto, you're given way too much credit to this thread and this forum. While we are not shy about solving the world's problems, I think its an enormous lark to suggest that this thread proves anything. Time for a reality check.

Science does not claim to have all the answers but religion claims to have all the answers... thats the basic difference. Who is kidding who?
The very nature of science is to ask questions and debate. The nature of religion is to accept God unconditionally. Without science, we'd still be in the Dark Ages.

"Willow, and co, do you believe that Jesus indeed existed on Earth 2000 years ago? If so, how much of the story do you believe?"
Can't speak for co but imo, a bloke called Jesus (or some similar name) was probably around 2000 years ago creating havoc to the establishment. And he probably got executed for his political beliefs. He was most likely into communism before it was defined as such and this would have been popular amongst the needy.
He also enjoyed the odd shag and had the gift of the gab.
But he was just one of many prophets. At the time, the place was overun with such guys.
He got the gig as the son of God because he had a good publicist in Paul.
 

Patrick Bateman

Juniors
Messages
3
Oh, come on, there are a lot more important things to worry about than how the universe was created.

We need to stop the production of nuclear arms for one, stop terrorism and world hunger. Ensure a strong national defense, prevent the spread of communism, work for a Middle East peace settlement, prevent US military involvement overseas. We have to ensure that Australia becomes a respected world power. Now that's not to belittle our domestic problems, which are equally important, if not more. Better and more affordable long-term care for the elderly, control and find a cure for the AIDS epidemic, clean up environmental damage from toxic waste and pollution, improve the quality of primary and secondary education, strengthen laws to crack down on crime and illegal drugs. We also have to ensure that college education is affordable for the middle class and protect social security for senior citizens plus conserve natural resources and wilderness areas and reduce the influence of political action committees.

But economically, we're still a mess. We have to find a way to hold down the inflation rate and continue to reduce the deficit. We also need to provide training and jobs for the unemployed as well as protect existing Australian jobs from unfair foreign imports. We have to make Australia a leader in new technology. At the same time we need to promote economic growth and business expansion and hold the line against income taxes and hold down interest rates while promoting opportunities for small businesses and controlling mergers and big corporate takeovers.

But we can't ignore our social needs either. We have to stop people from abusing the welfare system. We have to provide food and shelter for the homeless and oppose racial discrimination and promote civil rights while also promoting equal rights for women but change the abortion laws to protect the right to life yet still somehow maintain women's freedom of choice. We also have to control the influx of illegal immigrants. We have to encourage a return to traditional moral values and curb graphic sex and violence on TV, in movies, in popular music; everywhere. Most importantly we have to promote general social concern and less materialism in young people.
 

Leisotto

Juniors
Messages
17

"I thought this was thread about 'thoughts on society'. Perhaps you should have called it, "Who is religious like me?'"

Ummm, alrighty then. I was merely replying to what you said.

" I think its an enormous lark to suggest that this thread proves anything. Time for a reality check."

Not really. The way i look at it mate, is that this thread has some very intelligent contributors. If something cannot pop up within 500 posts to convince me that there is a scientific explanation as to how the world begun, i really don't know where i expect to find an answer. And this is not to consider the resources of the internet, a worldwide network of information. Once again, you would expect something to be found and posted here if it did indeed exist (ie: scientific explanation)

"Science does not claim to have all the answers but religion claims to have all the answers... thats the basic difference. Who is kidding who? The very nature of science is to ask questions and debate. The nature of religion is to accept God unconditionally. Without science, we'd still be in the Dark Ages."

No one is denying that science does not have an important role to play in society. It helps us to understand the world that has been given to us, and as you suggest, we would be much worse off without it. Where in the bible does it say that every answer is included in the text? In fact, what religion claims that it has every answer? Id be interested to know

"Can't speak for co but imo, a bloke called Jesus (or some similar name) was probably around 2000 years ago creating havoc to the establishment. And he probably got executed for his political beliefs. He was most likely into communism before it was defined as such and this would have been popular amongst the needy. He also enjoyed the odd shag and had the gift of the gab.
But he was just one of many prophets. At the time, the place was overun with such guys.
He got the gig as the son of God because he had a good publicist in Paul."

That just highlights your true thoughts on the issue. IMO, IMHO even lol, i struggle to see how you could be objective in a discussion such as this when its obvious that you have some pretty large biases against religion. Saying things like 'he enjoyed the odd shag' is really not showing a lot of respect towards those who believe in Christianity

Regards,
Leisotto



 

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