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Thoughts on society.....

C

CanadianSteve

Guest
<center> <h1>from the book <u>Mere Christianity</u> by C.S. Lewis</h1> Sorry for the length, but I think it is a good explanation of the question of right and wrong, and morality. <h1> <hr> </h1></center> <h2>The Moral Sense</h2>Every one has heard people quarreling. Sometimes it sounds funny and sometimes it sounds merely unpleasant; but however it sounds, I believe we can learn something very important from listening to the kinds of things they say. They say things like this: "How'd you like it if anyone did the same to you?"--"That's my seat, I was there first"--"Leave him alone, he isn't doing you any harm"--"Why should you shove in first?"--"Give me a bit of your orange, I gave you a bit of mine"--"Come on, you promised." People say things like that every day, educated people, as well as uneducated, and children as well as grown-ups. Now what interests me about all these remarks is that the man who makes them is not merely saying that the other man's behavior does not happen to please him. He is appealing to some kind of standard of behavior which he expects[ the other man to know about. And the other man very seldom replies: "To hell with your standard." Nearly always he tries to make out that what he has been doing does not really go against the standard, or that if it does there is some special excuse. He pretends there is some special reason in this particular case why the person who took the seat first should not keep it, or that things were quite different when he was given the bit of orange, or that something has turned up which lets him off keeping his promise. It looks, in fact, very much as if both parties had in mind some kind of Law or Rule of fair play or decent behavior or morality or whatever you like to call it, about which they really agreed. And they have. If they had not, they might, of course, fight like animals, but it they could not quarrel in the human sense of the word. Quarreling means trying to show that the other man is in the wrong. And there would be no sense in trying to do that unless you and he had some sort of agreement as to what Right and Wrong are; just as there would be no sense in saying that a footballer had committed a foul unless there was some agreement about the rules of football. Now this Law or Rule about Right and Wrong used to be called the Law of Nature. Nowadays, when we talk of the "laws of nature" we usually mean things like gravitation, or heredity, or the laws of chemistry. But when the older thinkers called the Law of Right and Wrong "the Law of Nature," they really meant the Law of Human Nature. The idea was that, just as all bodies are governed by the law of gravitation and organisms by biological laws, so the creature called man also had his law--with this great difference, that a body could not choose whether it obeyed the law of gravitation or not, but a man could choose either or obey the Law of Human Nature or to disobey it. We may put this in another way. Each man is at every moment subjected to several sets of law but there is only one of these which he is free to disobey. As a body, he is subjected to gravitation and cannot disobey it; if you leave him unsupported in mid-air, he has no more choice about falling than a stone has. As an organism, he is subjected to various biological laws which he cannot disobey anymore than an animal can. That is, he cannot disobey those laws which he shares with other things; but the law which is peculiar to his human nature, the law he does not share with animals or vegetables or inorganic things, is the one he can disobey if he chooses. This law was called the Law of Nature because people thought that every one knew it by nature and did not need to be taught it. They did not mean, of course, that you might not find an odd individual here and there who did not know it, just as you find a few people who are colour-blind or have no ear for a tune. But taking the race as a whole, they thought that the human idea of decent behavior was obvious to everyone. And I believe they were right. If they were not, then all the things we said about the war were nonsense. What was the sense in saying the enemy were in the wrong unless Right is a real thing which the Nazis at bottom knew as well as we did and ought to have practiced? If they had no notion of what we mean by right, then, though we might still have had to fight them, we could no more have blamed them for that then for the colour of their hair. I know that some people say the idea of a Law of Nature or decent behavior known to all men is unsound, because different civilizations and different ages have had quite different moralities. But this is not true. There have been differences between their moralities, but these have never amounted to anything like a total difference. If anyone will take the trouble to compare the moral teaching of, say, the ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, Hindus, Chinese, Greeks and Romans, what will really strike him will be how very like they are to each other and to our own. Some of the evidence for this I have put together in the appendix of another book called The Abolition of Man; but for our present purpose I need only to ask the reader to think what a totally different morality would mean. Think of a country where people were admired for running away in battle, or where a man felt proud of double-crossing all the people who had been kindest to him. You might just as well try to imagine a country where two and two make five. Men have differed as regards what people you ought to be unselfish to--whether it was only your own family, or your fellow countrymen, or everyone. But they have always agreed that you ought not to put yourself first. Selfishness has never been admired. Men have differed as to whether you should have one wife or four. But they have always agreed that you must not simply have any woman you liked. But the most remarkable thing is this. Whenever you find a man who says he does not believe in a real Right and Wrong, you will find the same man going back on this in a moment later. He may break his promise to you, but if you try breaking on to him he will be complaining "It's not fair" before you can say Jack Robinson. A nation may say treaties do not matter; but the next minute, they spoil their case by saying that the particular treaty they want to break was an unfair one. But if treaties do not matter, and if there is not such thing as Right and Wrong--in other words, if there is no Law of Nature--what is the difference between a fair treaty and an unfair one? Have they not let the cat out of the bag and shown that, whatever they say, they really know the Law of Nature just like anyone else? It seems, then, we are forced to believe in a real Right and Wrong. People may be sometimes mistaken about them, just as people sometimes get their sums wrong; but they are not a matter of mere taste and opinion any more than the multiplication table. Now if we are agreed about that, I go on to my next point, which is this. None of us is really keeping the Law of Nature. If there are any exceptions among you, I apologize to them. They had much better read some other work, for nothing I am going to say concerns them. And now, turning to the ordinary human beings who are left: I hope you will not misunderstand what I am going to say. I am not preaching, and Heaven knows I do not pretend to be better than anyone else. I am only trying to call attention to a fact; the fact that this year, or this month, or, more likely, this very day, we have failed to practice ourselves the kind of behavior we expect from other people. There may be all sorts of excuses for us. That time you were so unfair to the children was when you were very tired. That slightly shady business about the money--the one you have almost forgotten--came when you were very hard up. And what you promised to do for old So-and-so and have never done--well, you never would have promised if you had known how frightfully busy you were going to be. And as for your behavior to your wife (or husband) or sister (or brother) if I knew how irritating they could be, I would not wonder at it--and who the dickens am I, anyway? I am just the same. that is to say, I do not succeed in keeping the Law of Nature very well, and the moment anyone tells me I am not keeping it, there starts up in my mind a string of excuses as long as your arm. The question at the moment is not whether they are good excuses. The point is that they are one more proof of how deeply, whether we like if or not, we believe in the Law of Nature. If we do not believe in decent behavior, why should we be so anxious to make excuses for not having behaved decently? The truth is, we believe in decency so much--we feel the Rule of Law pressing on us so--that we cannot bear to face the fact that we are breaking it, and consequently we try to shift the responsibility. For you notice that it is only for our bad behaviour that we find all these explanations. It is only our bad temper that we put down to being tired or worried or hungry; we put our good temper down to ourselves. These, then, are the two points I wanted to make. First, that human beings, all over the earth, have this curious idea that they ought to behave in a certain way, and cannot really get rid of it. Secondly, that they do not in fact behave in that way. They know the Law of Nature; they break it. These two facts are the foundation of all clear thinking about ourselves and the universe we live in. (Mere Christianity) <hr>
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
109,864
Moffo: (post #120): "El- re your other post. Perfection wouldn't exist without imperfections. Same as good wouldn't exist without bad. How could you be good if there is nothing 'bad' to be compared against? Same thing, u need imperfection in order to create perfection..."

I enjoyed the word gymnastics but the basic contradiction hasn't been addressed:

According to Chritianity and Islam, God is perfect. The same perfect God created humans in his own image.
But these humans disobeyed God and as sinners, God punished them.
What is perfect cannot make itself imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. But remember, God created Humans in his own image.... so God cannot perfect either.
So is the bible is wrong. Or has God been telling fibs?

Whatever the answer, there is no denying that your God is far from perfect and at the very least stuffs things up from time to time.
 
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If God were good, He would wish to make His creatures perfectly happy, and if God were almighty, He would be able to do what He wished. But the creatures are not happy. Therefore God lacks either goodness, or power, or both." This is the problem of pain, in its simplest form. The possibility of answering it depends on showing that the terms "good" and "almighty," and perhaps also the term "happy" are equivocal: for it must be admitted from the outset that if the popular meanings attached to these words are the best, or the only possible, meanings, then the argument is unanswerable. (The Problem of Pain) ;)
 
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Bishop condemns Virgin Mary rape documentary&lt;/HEADLINE> &lt;DATE>December 23 2002&lt;/DATE>
<br clear=all>&lt;BOD> A Catholic bishop today criticised a British television documentary that suggests the Virgin Mary may have been raped by a Roman soldier. The Bishop of Portsmouth said the BBC program, The Virgin Mary, was crude and offensive by disregarding the concerns and beliefs of millions of Christians. The controversy came as a survey revealed that a quarter of Church of England clergy do not believe in the virgin birth of Christ. The Sunday Telegraph survey found that 27 per cent of 500 clerics questioned doubt privately the traditional story of Jesus's birth. Tonight's program questions the Bible's interpretation of the Virgin Mary, suggesting she may even have been called Miriam, and that she may have been raped by a Roman solider. <br clear=all>&lt;ISLANDAD>;) >
 
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Good post there Steve, it was an interesting read, if a little long!

Now onto the infidels :p

"The same perfect God created humans in his own image"

True, however i take 'in his own image' in the physical sense. Taking the assumption that God was the first 'human' as such, he made humans in his own image. As in having eyes, ears, legs, arms etc etc. God never said that we would be made without sin. That isshownin Adam and Eve, whether you believe the story or not is a separate issue.

"Whatever the answer, there is no denying that your God is far from perfect and at the very least stuffs things up from time to time."

Based on my last paragraph, it leaves you with no proof that God is not perfect.To say that he stuffs up things sometimes would entail you having to provide proof of this, wouldn't it?

Moffo

 
A

alex

Guest

What I don't get about Christianity which my RE teacher couldn't answer is firstly why God has created humans to have sin and for all this evil to go on in our world. Isn't he supposed to love us?

If God has a great plan for all of us then what's the point of trying to convert other people? Isn't it already mapped out?

How on Earth do we know Christianity is the actual true religion with the only God. If Moffo was born in India he would almost certainly be a Hindu. If CanadianSteve was born in the Middle East he would probably be a Jew or a Muslim.
 
C

CanadianSteve

Guest
<center> <h1>The Bible and C. S. Lewis</h1></center> <center> <h1>A Study of the Christian World View</h1></center> <hr>
Why Does Evil Exist?
It was of no interest to God to create a species consisting of virtuous automata, for the 'virtue' of automata who can do no other than they do is a courtesy title only; it is analogous to the 'virtue' of the stone that rolls downhill or of the water that freezes at 32 degrees. To what end, it may be asked, should God create such creatures? That He might be praised by them? But automatic praise is a mere succession of noises. That He might love them? But they are essentially unloveable; you cannot love puppets. And so God gave man free will that he might increase in virtue by his own efforts and become, a free moral being, a worthy object of God's love. Freedom entails freedom to go wrong: man did, in fact, go wrong, misusing God's gift and doing evil. Pain is a by-product of evil; and so pain came into the world as a result of man's misuse of God's gift of free will. (Dr. Joad as quoted in the The Christian World of C. S. Lewis by Clyde Kilby pp. 65-66) <hr>
 
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alex

Guest
Great thats cheered me up:p. So we screwed up the present God gave us, which was a pretty good one I reckon.
 
C

CanadianSteve

Guest
<center> <h1>The Bible and C. S. Lewis</h1></center> <center> <h1>A Study of the Christian World View</h1></center> <hr> <h2>Are The Gospel Accounts Reliable?</h2>
from <u>God in the Dock</u>
Another point is that on that view you would have to regard the accounts of the Man as being legends. Now, as a literary historian, I am perfectly convinced the whatever the Gospels are they are not legends. I have read a great deal of legend and I am quite clear that they are not the same sort of thing. They are not artistic enough to be legends. From an imaginative point of view they are clumsy, they don't work up to things properly. Most of the life of Jesus is totally unknown to us, as is the life of anyone else who lived at that time, and no people building up a legend would allow that to be so. Apart from bits of the Platonic dialogues, there are no conversations that I know of in ancient literature like the Fourth Gospel. There is nothing, even in modern literature, until about a hundred years ago when the realistic novel came into existence. In the story of the woman taken in adultery we are told Christ bent down and scribbled in the dust with His finger. Nothing comes of this. No one has ever based any doctrine on it. And the art of inventing little irrelevant details to make an imaginary scene more convincing is a purely modern art. Surely the only explanation of this passage is that the thing really happened. The author put it in simply because he had seen it.
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
109,864
Moffo:
"however i take 'in his own image' in the physical sense. ... "
Hmmm, I don't believe that what the what the bible says but then again it is a book open to interpretation.... wildly so. Ah yes... another convenient exit.

"Based on my last paragraph, it leaves you with no proof that God is not perfect.To say that he stuffs up things sometimes would entail you having to provide proof of this, wouldn't it?"
War, famine, disease, suffering... what more proof do you need that we live in an imperfect world?

Look mate, I don't think its such a big thing to say that the bible got it wrong and God is not perfect. A lot of christians actually think this way as well. What amazes me is that some choose to still wear blinkers.
 
C

CanadianSteve

Guest
"Based on my last paragraph, it leaves you with no proof that God is not perfect.To say that he stuffs up things sometimes would entail you having to provide proof of this, wouldn't it?"
War, famine, disease, suffering... what more proof do you need that we live in an imperfect world? - Willow

Yes, but it's man, not God, that messed it up. See post #131


 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
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109,864
"Yes, but it's man, not God, that messed it up. See post #131"
"its man that has created his own problems..."

But God created Man [sic] in his own image... see post # whatever... its only been pointed about three times.

Its like blaming the supporters for a teams drop in form....

Why is it so hard to admit that God in sometimes wrong? Surely, that would make him more approachable.. wouldn't it?
 

imported_E_A__

Juniors
Messages
542
"I might warn people in advance, i dont get on much, so any replies may take a while."

Ya got that friggin' right mate.

Everyone expects a reply too.

Good luck. :)

 

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