Todd Greenberg has got to go!

[King hit]

Ah SL, our very own version of Godwin’s law!

And the Hunter Mariners, a club with no supporters with their players and executives threatened daily almost became world champions

 

[Vee]

"Diminishing corporate supporter base" from when?All corp boxes for the sharks were sold in 2017.All Sydney clubs are sponsored.

The year after they won the premiership? Good argument.

 

[Stallion]

And yet with a third less Sydney clubs the game has more revenue, more tv viewers and more fans attending in this period than pre Sydney cull, go figure!

You just ignored a whole range of multiple factors! Disturbingly you ignore the reduction in junior numbers in your frail ignorant stance. A "destructionist" line of thought being consistent again.

 

[Perth Red]

You just ignored a whole range of multiple factors! Disturbingly you ignore the reduction in junior numbers in your frail ignorant stance. A "destructionist" line of thought being consistent again.

Is that the same reduction in jnrs that Phil Gould claims is a lie? You keep making sht up with no evidence and expect us to follow your line of reasoning

We have noticed a small decline in the number of players registering to play in the 12, 13 and 14 year age groups, however, we have seen steady improvement across the board in many other divisions. This is come about as a result of a lot of hard work from our full-time Junior League management and administration teams and the support of the many volunteers who are really responsible for making Junior League happen.

The information and registrations for Penrith Junior League over the last 5 years are:

The figures so far this year are a little disappointing in the age groups of Under 12, 13 and 14 and this follows on from low numbers from the previous year. Our figures tell us that not many kids have actually have left these age groups, it’s just that smaller numbers our pushing through and there have been very few new registrations in these age groups.

The best result for the Junior League is that we are getting a large base of players coming through in the Under 6,7,8, 10 and 11 which will be very beneficial for the junior league over the next few years.

From Under 15's right through to the Over 19’s age groups, registrations have improved significantly over recent years and will be very strong for a long time to come.
https://wwos.nine.com.au/2017/05/08...r-local-juniors-in-western-sydney?ocid=wwostw

 

[Stallion]

And yet with a third less Sydney clubs the game has more revenue, more tv viewers and more fans attending in this period than pre Sydney cull, go figure!

You do realise that sone people still watch the game and they dont die straight away! ? However their is an overall weakening of the code within Sydney as popular cultural rivalries become extinct. Many fans follow teams just because of the local/ cultural rivalry. It creates relevance and enjoyment. Im wondering if the total aggregate crowd figures of 1995 are factored into your assessment of crowd figures. After all total aggregate crowd numbers actually counts the number turning up to the code? Averages can be misleading or used in a targeted way. For that matter another decent barometer is total player numbers? That should give a decent idea of how the code is travelling!

 

[The Great Dane]

There are families of bears fans disenfranchised and the ones i know have mostly switched to the thwannies or given up entirely

Anecdotes, the most useless form of evidence.

Since all you bring is anecdotes they can be countered with anecdotes, so guess what I come from an old Bears family!
I'm a Bears fan myself (though to be fair I identified as a Raiders fan first and Bears fan second by the time they were kicked), and I know a ton of old bears fans, and each fan reacted to the Bears being cut from the NRL in different ways, some of them don't really follow RL anymore, some of them still watch the NRL every week but don't really follow a club anymore, some of them picked up other clubs, a few of them still follow the Bears and go to their games as regularly as possible, and yes some of them follow other sports more then they used to, but I can honestly say that to a man or woman none of them suddenly took an interest in a sport that they weren't already following before the Bears were dropped, the ones that went on to take an interest in mainly AFL, RU, soccer, whatever, were already fans of those sports and their teams in those sports before the bears were dropped.

There was no mass exodus of Bears fans to the Waratahs of Swans, tens of thousands of Bears fans didn't suddenly become interested in things they had no interest in a couple of years before, it sounded good so the newspapers ran with it and people took it to be true, but nobody has ever provided any hard evidence that it happened, no numbers, no polls, nothing but a handful of fear mongering articles designed to sell papers, and it worked.

Glebe and Annandale? What year is this and how do you know they families of these clubs fans did change? Could be the bulk of waratahs fans by now

Glebe and Annandale used to be clubs that participated in the NSWRL, they were kicked out to make room for expansion into Canterbury and St.George which were much bigger and more lucrative opportunities (and if we are honest they were also kicked out so some of the other clubs could split up their juniors, Balmain and Souths in particular in the case of Glebe).

They both had reasonably sized fan bases for their time, they both had multi generational fan bases, and they both had histories of there own (particularly Glebe who were arguably the first club to join the NSWRL and were the oldest club in the competition having been around since the mid 1800s and were a successful RU club before joining the NSWRL), they both had groups partitioning for them to rejoin the NSWRL for a long time after they were kicked out, and almost nobody remembers them now.

They're not the only ones either, Cumberland, Rebels, and Uni, were all clubs that participated in the NSWRL as well, though they weren't kicked out with the express purpose of creating space for new clubs, that was just a happy coincidence in the case of the Rebels and Uni.

Give it a few generations and the Bears, Jets, and any other team we cut will be forgotten too, they are already on their way to that point anyway, particularly in the case of the Jets.

BTW the Waratahs weren't introduced until the 80s and didn't become a significant brand until the advent of Super Rugby in 96, Glebe was kicked out in 1929 and Annandale was kicked out in 1920, if their is a connection it's extremely minor.

 

[Stallion]

Is that the same reduction in jnrs that Phil Gould claims is a lie? You keep making sht up with no evidence and expect us to follow your line of reasoning

We have noticed a small decline in the number of players registering to play in the 12, 13 and 14 year age groups, however, we have seen steady improvement across the board in many other divisions. This is come about as a result of a lot of hard work from our full-time Junior League management and administration teams and the support of the many volunteers who are really responsible for making Junior League happen.

The information and registrations for Penrith Junior League over the last 5 years are:

The figures so far this year are a little disappointing in the age groups of Under 12, 13 and 14 and this follows on from low numbers from the previous year. Our figures tell us that not many kids have actually have left these age groups, it’s just that smaller numbers our pushing through and there have been very few new registrations in these age groups.

The best result for the Junior League is that we are getting a large base of players coming through in the Under 6,7,8, 10 and 11 which will be very beneficial for the junior league over the next few years.

From Under 15's right through to the Over 19’s age groups, registrations have improved significantly over recent years and will be very strong for a long time to come.
https://wwos.nine.com.au/2017/05/08...r-local-juniors-in-western-sydney?ocid=wwostw

I see you have used one junior area as evidence! The Penrith juniors were rightfully being defended by Phil Gould. The article was also referring to other junior areas of Western Sydney which you have conveniently ignored! Mind you the article was focusing on western Sydney juniors! What about North, South and Eastern Sydney? Have you forgotten that their are millions of people in these areas as well!? What of their junior numbers! ?

 

[The Great Dane]

The multiple factors are: longstanding fan loyalty, established rivalries, Australias largest populated city, Australias largest city tv audience, Australias longest running rugby league competition, many of Australias most widely recognized and identifiable football clubs, the credibility of the competition, the respect and general regard of this competition, the negative message to neutral sports fans when such clubs are gone, the negative message to current genuine fans of the code, the negative sentiment from the business community as they see a code in decline in the biggest city in Australia, the gifting of new fans to other football codes in Sydney , the loss of sponsors to other codes, the drop in junior numbers in Sydney and the reduced relevance of the code in Australias largest city. I'm sure ive missed a number of other 'multiple factors ' but thats a start!

Half of that is BS and buzzwords, and the rest doesn't necessarily have be effected by the rationalisation of Sydney if we do it properly.

You don't even have to kill clubs to rationalise the competition.

 

[Stallion]

Anecdotes, the most useless form of evidence.

Since all you bring is anecdotes they can be countered with anecdotes, so guess what I come from an old Bears family!
I'm a Bears fan myself (though to be fair I identified as a Raiders fan first and Bears fan second by the time they were kicked), and I know a ton of old bears fans, and each fan reacted to the Bears being cut from the NRL in different ways, some of them don't really follow RL anymore, some of them still watch the NRL every week but don't really follow a club anymore, some of them picked up other clubs, a few of them still follow the Bears and go to their games as regularly as possible, and yes some of them follow other sports more then they used to, but I can honestly say that to a man or woman none of them suddenly took an interest in a sport that they weren't already following before the Bears were dropped, the ones that went on to take an interest in mainly AFL, RU, soccer, whatever, were already fans of those sports and their teams in those sports before the bears were dropped.

There was no mass exodus of Bears fans to the Waratahs of Swans, tens of thousands of Bears fans didn't suddenly become interested in things they had no interest in a couple of years before, it sounded good so the newspapers ran with it and people took it to be true, but nobody has ever provided any hard evidence that it happened, no numbers, no polls, nothing but a handful of fear mongering articles designed to sell papers, and it worked.



Glebe and Annandale used to be clubs that participated in the NSWRL, they were kicked out to make room for expansion into Canterbury and St.George which were much bigger and more lucrative opportunities (and if we are honest they were also kicked out so some of the other clubs could split up their juniors, Balmain and Souths in particular in the case of Glebe).

They both had reasonably sized fan bases for their time, they both had multi generational fan bases, and they both had histories of there own (particularly Glebe who were arguably the first club to join the NSWRL and were the oldest club in the competition having been around since the mid 1800s and were a successful RU club before joining the NSWRL), they both had groups partitioning for them to rejoin the NSWRL for a long time after they were kicked out, and almost nobody remembers them now.

They're not the only ones either, Cumberland, Rebels, and Uni, were all clubs that participated in the NSWRL as well, though they weren't kicked out with the express purpose of creating space for new clubs, that was just a happy coincidence in the case of the Rebels and Uni.

Give it a few generations and the Bears, Jets, and any other team we cut will be forgotten too, they are already on their way to that point anyway, particularly in the case of the Jets.

BTW the Waratahs weren't introduced until the 80s and didn't become a significant brand until the advent of Super Rugby in 96, Glebe was kicked out in 1929 and Annandale was kicked out in 1920, if their is a connection it's extremely minor.

Once again you have forgotten /neglected the impact of the 70s onwards tv era! A massive consideration in the recognisability and universal acceptance of the Sydney based clubs. You are so consistently dumb!

 

[Stallion]

Half of that is BS and buzzwords, and the rest doesn't necessarily have be effected by the rationalisation of Sydney if we do it properly.

You don't even have to kill clubs to rationalise the competition.

You are aware that if a club goes to a lower level league they are basically extinct to most people!? If not, you have cemented my assessment of you being an idiot! And your ignorant rhetoric very damaging to rugby league.

 

[The Great Dane]

I see you have used one junior area as evidence! The Penrith juniors were rightfully being defended by Phil Gould. The article was also referring to other junior areas of Western Sydney which you have conveniently ignored! Mind you the article was focusing on western Sydney juniors! What about North, South and Eastern Sydney? Have you forgotten that their are millions of people in these areas as well!? What of their junior numbers! ?

Lack of support from the local RL clubs (in this case Manly and the Roosters in particular) combined with demographic changes are the main reasons that juniors are down in those regions.

The Bears blocking other clubs from coming into 'their' region and insisting on controlling their juniors that they can no longer provided for and no longer have a direct route to professional RL for, aren't helping either, in fact they've been the biggest hindrance to amateur and junior RL in Northern Sydney over the last 20 years.

 

[Perth Red]

I see you have used one junior area as evidence! The Penrith juniors were rightfully being defended by Phil Gould. The article was also referring to other junior areas of Western Sydney which you have conveniently ignored! Mind you the article was focusing on western Sydney juniors! What about North, South and Eastern Sydney? Have you forgotten that their are millions of people in these areas as well!? What of their junior numbers! ?

I don’t know you tell me, what were the jnr numbers in those regions in the early nineties when there was eleven Sydney teams compared to now with nine? Do you have the evidence back up your claims?

Why one city would need nine teams to be reasonably popular I still find bemusing. Shows how small scale the game is, how myopic the fans are, I suppose.

If I’m a kid growing up North Sydney today I have a direct development pathway to the nrl through the bears nswrl set up and South Sydney link up. If I am not that great a player I can still be a fan and choose to support:

Eels 30kms
Roosters 9kms
Bulldogs 20kms
Souths 20kms
Manly 13kms

Most of these are closer than it is from my house to nib stadium yet I wouldn’t dream of not going to watch an nrl club because it was 30kms to the stadium.

I don’t get this Sydney mentality that if there isn’t a club with my suburbs name I won’t follow RL. Weird

 

[Stallion]

Lack of support from the local RL clubs (in this case Manly and the Roosters in particular) combined with demographic changes are the main reasons that juniors are down in those regions.

The Bears blocking other clubs from coming into 'their' region and insisting on controlling their juniors that they can no longer provided for and no longer have a direct route to professional RL for, aren't helping either, in fact they've been the biggest hindrance to amateur and junior RL in Northern Sydney over the last 20 years.

Perhaps the Bears may think that they can reincarnate and the NRL will give such clubs an opportunity to re enter the top flight competition? I assume that if another club stamped their mark over Bears territory their would be no hope for the Bears? You mentioned Manly and Easts. I believe Easts have had lazy junior administrators poor regard for local juniors for many decades. The common used excuse "it's not a rugby league area anymore" has been used by many regressive junior administrators in Sydney. Think such people have sold the code short. Do you honestly think news of a club going into oblivion would be seen by the public and aspiring young footballers as a positive message? Certainly not! This impacts on a young persons decision to play the code. ITS REALITY.
And to your 9 teams (8.5) in Sydney argument? Another rival code seen as progressive has 10 top flight clubs in a city with a million less people than Sydney! Your stance is abysmally ignorant ,damaging and disrespectful!

 

[The Great Dane]

Once again you have forgotten /neglected the impact of the 70s onwards tv era! A massive consideration in the recognisability and universal acceptance of the Sydney based clubs. You are so consistently dumb!

No you just want to ignore facts that don't suit your agenda, like the existence of clubs like Glebe, their impact on the competition, and their legacy.
You also want to negate the impact of other forms of media that existed at the time, like radio and print.

But even so how do explain Newtown?
They were around during the TV era, they had the reach that TV brought and fans that followed them on TV, how come their loss hasn't had a lasting generational impact on the sport of any note?

You are aware that if a club goes to a lower level league they are basically extinct to most people!? If not, you have cemented my assessment of you being an idiot! And your ignorant rhetoric very damaging to rugby league.

It's never been attempted in this country so we don't know how people would react to regulation in this country, and that's not what the evidence shows in the rest of the world.

Generally speaking, as long as the competition that they are dropping into has the roughly the same amount of coverage in the media as their previous competition the club normally has only a minor drop in support, the real problems that the clubs normally face is the drop in income and not being able to support their clubs with that lower income, but there're ways around that problem if you plan for it right.

 

[Stallion]

I don’t know you tell me, what were the jnr numbers in those regions in the early nineties there was eleven Sydney teams compared to now with nine? Do you have the evidence back up your claims?

Why one city would need nine teams to be reasonably popular I still find bemusing. Shows how small scale the game is, how myopic the fans are, I suppose.

If I’m a kid growing up North Sydney today I have a direct development pathway to the nrl through the bears nswrl set up and South Sydney link up. If I am not that great a player and can still be a fan and choose to support:

Eels 30kms
Roosters 9kms
Bulldogs 20kms
Souths 20kms
Manly 13kms

Most of these are closer that it is from my house to nib stadium yet I wouldn’t dream of not ping to watch an nrl club because it was 30kms to the stadium.

I don’t get this Sydney mentality that if there isn’t a club with my suburbs name I won’t follow RL. Weird

Its also a significant strength both culturally and for the code. That is what your thinking is damaging!

 

[Cherry_poppins]

Half of that is BS and buzzwords, and the rest doesn't necessarily have be effected by the rationalisation of Sydney if we do it properly.

You don't even have to kill clubs to rationalise the competition.

Canberra is a non growth area, the population has plateaued and will not grow

Plus their super league traitors and the biggest cap cheats of all time, we're talking Guinness world record sombrero

I think they should be kicked out to make room for the mid south nsw bears

Very short uneventful history outside cheating and 3 players of note

 

[The Great Dane]

Perhaps the Bears may think that they can reincarnate and the NRL will give such clubs an opportunity to re enter the top flight competition? I sssume that if another club stamped their mark over Bears territory teir would be no hope for the Bears? You mentioned Manly and Easts. I believe Easts have had lazy junior administrators poor regard for local juniors for many decades. The common used excuse "it's not a rugby league area anymore" has been used by many regressive junior administrators in Sydney. Think such people have sold the code short. Do you honestly think news of a club going into oblivion would be seen by the public and aspiring young footballers as a positive message? Certainly not! This impacts on a young persons decision to play the code. ITS REALITY.

No, but a new club coming in and actually putting the work into the juniors and giving them opportunities that they didn't have under the old clubs would be a much more positive message then the one that they currently get, and that can all be arranged in tandem with rationalisation.

And what about all the places all over the country where RL basically isn't an option at all for juniors?
You don't seem to give a f##k about them, only about rationalising the continued existence of your club over what is best for the rest of the sport for your own emotional reasons.

And to your 9 teams (8.5) in Sydney argument? Another rival code seen as progressive has 10 top flight clubs in a city with a million less people than Sydney! Your stance is abysmally ignorant ,damaging and disrespectful!

The AFL is in the exact same boat that we are with haves and have nots in Melbourne and an over saturated market, and they have been trying change it covertly for 20 years now, eventually they'll have to get blatant about it again just like us.

They've tried to move the Kangaroos to the GC and to Canberra multiple times, they tried to move the Western Bulldogs to Canberra, they've courted multiple clubs about a permanent move to Tassie, they've tried to move the Demons on, etc, etc, etc.

They're exactly where we are at in this regard.

 

[Stallion]

No you just want to ignore facts that don't suit your agenda, like the existence of clubs like Glebe, their impact on the competition, and their legacy.
You also want to negate the impact of other forms of media that existed at the time, like radio and print.

But even so how do explain Newtown?
They were around during the TV era, they had the reach that TV brought and fans that followed them on TV, how come their loss hasn't had a lasting generational impact on the sport of any note?



It's never been attempted in this country so we don't know how people would react to regulation in this country, and that's not what the evidence shows in the rest of the world.

Generally speaking, as long as the competition that they are dropping into has the roughly the same amount of coverage in the media as their previous competition the club normally has only a minor drop in support, the real problems that the clubs normally face is the drop in income and not being able to support their clubs with that lower income, but there're ways around that problem if you plan for it right.

Lol. So if a club goes you think they have a marginal loss of fan support!? Are you a comedian for sick jokes!? When a club goes under the fans go under too! You havent even considered the multitudes of fans that follow the club for whatever reason are pissed off as well! Its not just the local area thats detrimentally affected its the wider rugby league community that loses out as well. Btw the Newtown Jets are hosting crowds of 9000 at Henson park with a boutique style game day experience. I will concede that a promotion and relegation set up specifically for all Sydney clubs is a feasible way to go. It would have to be considered and with criteria involved. But 10 clubs with the Bears out of the Central Coast and a few other club name changes would strengthen instead of weaken the code in Sydney. Ideally a twenty team comp should be the aim Australia wide.

 

[Stallion]

No, but a new club coming in and actually putting the work into the juniors and giving them opportunities that they didn't have under the old clubs would be a much more positive message then the one that they currently get, and that can all be arranged in tandem with rationalisation.

And what about all the places all over the country where RL basically isn't an option at all for juniors?
You don't seem to give a f##k about them, only about rationalising the continued existence of your club over what is best for the rest of the sport for your own emotional reasons.



The AFL is in the exact same boat that we are with haves and have nots in Melbourne and an over saturated market, and they have been trying change it covertly for 20 years now, eventually they'll have to get blatant about it again just like us.

They've tried to move the Kangaroos to the GC and to Canberra multiple times, they tried to move the Western Bulldogs to Canberra, they've courted multiple clubs about a permanent move to Tassie, they've tried to move the Demons on, etc, etc, etc.

They're exactly where we are at in this regard.

The AFL will dupe people like yourself into believing what they want you to believe. They are steadfast in keeping these very well known Melbourne clubs but will keep rival codes guessing without actually culling as the rival code (RL) goes about its self destruction if dudes like you get listened to.

 

[The Great Dane]

Canberra is a non growth area, the population has plateaued and will not grow

Except that Canberra population is steadily growing with no signs of stopping anytime soon.

Plus their super league traitors and the biggest cap cheats of all time, we're talking Guinness world record sombrero

I think they should be kicked out to make room for the mid south nsw bears

Very short uneventful history outside cheating and 3 players of note

Actually we are the smallest cap 'cheats' who received the largest punishment of any of the clubs caught cheating (it literally bankrupted the club, and destroyed our junior retention for the next 15 years), it happened in the first year that the cap was introduced and the governing body of the time even admitted that it happened because of a misunderstanding of the new rules and not because of any malicious attempts to cheat it.

But lol whatever man.