Top ten things Rugby owes to league

[Thomas]

I'm well aware of the Puig Aubert era.

So what caused the decline of the FRL following the Golden Age?

 

[Everlovin' Antichrist]

They're all 30 and 35+ metres out Antichrist. THats my point to shoot down dumb dumb's idiotic statements.

The tee argument is redundant and I have dismissed it previously. It was brought in to save time and did not assist with accuracy to begin with. Halligan, Fox, Porta, Bootha, Hastings, Botica, all the boys on leather balls and sand on non drained grounds kicked accurately and far. You're going backwards. John Eales had a massive boot too.

Funny, the only name I recognise out of that lot is Halligan. Any idea why?

You'd think from your posts that the only goalkickers who made any impact on their sport were all Union players or ex-Union players. Kevin Longbottom kicked many goals from inside his own half way back in the 1960's but you may not have heard of him, he only played Rugby League.

And Eric Simms was by far the best field goal exponent I ever saw. In fact he was almost singlehandedly responsible for Rugby League going to 1 point for field goals.

 

[ANTiLAG]

The Gallagher Shield is a Rugby championship that (in it's original form) most likely predates the NSWRFL Premiership.

"Most likely". Seriously - are you comparing Auckland club rugby to NSWRL? Mate - I support the Kiwis but thats going a little too far don't cha think?

It shows that organised competition existed in Union and isn't 'borrowed' from League, even if it's at a lower level.

The NSWRL grand final was put on televised on free to air in 1989 and rated massively (what a game to advertise a rival code). You know its really funny but when all NSWRL finals were televised on "liveish"* FTA in NZ in 1991 and rated so highly that the very next year the NPC introduced a finals system. Coincidence or blatant copying? I'm going with the latter because everyone watchign the NSWRL thought it was a wonderful idea to have a finals system and asked why Union did not. Union in NZ had to compete for the air time market for the first time ever. Demand by kiwis for NSWRL meant union HAD TO improve its product. THey did this by kicking tee's and other rules to decrease the stoppages. Everyone was commenting at that time how in 80 mins of league you had 72 minutes of play but in Union you had HALF THAT AMMOUNT.

* Liveish I mean kickoff was live but the ads meant the game finished 20 minutes before the broadcast did.

But...Union was responding to a direct threat rather than emulating League's example.

They responded in a chamelleon manner. That is, they protected themselves by emulating League's successful model.

 

[AlwaysGreen]

Once again, the Nazis DIDN'T 'ban League' and only a complete moron would suggest otherwise.

Once again, Vichy France WASN'T OCCUPIED until 1942.

You've already proven yourself as completely and utterly devoid of intelligence and comprehension but I will let you have a chance of looking like a demented ignoramus rather than a complete dribbling genius.

The Nazi's occupied all of France from 1940 onwards, 3/5ths under their complete control, the remainder under the Vichy regime which was a mere puppet state at the mercy of the nazis and which collaborated with the nazis. In 1942 the nazis dismantled this facade and continued to occupy France. The French RU asked the NAZI RUN Vichy government to ban league which they did.

 

[Everlovin' Antichrist]

So what caused the decline of the FRL following the Golden Age?

See squatdork, we don't need you as the token Union troll, we already have one.

 

[AlwaysGreen]

So what caused the decline of the FRL following the Golden Age?

If you want a history lesson about the 1950's watch the history channel or talk to your relatives who lived during these times. This discussion's focus is French RU and its actions against league during WWII.

You're aiming low if you're attempting to assist dopedog in that discussion.

 

[ANTiLAG]

Funny, the only name I recognise out of that lot is Halligan. Any idea why?

You don't recognise Botica? Clearly you missed Wigan's early 90's success. Or Kiwi tests vs GB and AUstralia. Or NSWRL in the mid 90's when he was at the Warriors.

You'd think from your posts that the only goalkickers who made any impact on their sport were all Union players or ex-Union players. Kevin Longbottom kicked many goals from inside his own half way back in the 1960's but you may not have heard of him, he only played Rugby League.

And Eric Simms was by far the best field goal exponent I ever saw. In fact he was almost singlehandedly responsible for Rugby League going to 1 point for field goals.

Really - if you read all my posts and not just come into the tail end of the conversation I identify that Willie Horne was the first accurate round the corner kicker. He only played league, and was a superstar in the 1940's. Once again - you're going over ground already discussed. Scroll back and get the whole picture.

Dumb dumb (*Loudstrat) said toe pokers are better and he'd take them any day because of distance. I merely responded that that is a ridiculous statement and demonstrated why. Round the corner kickers kick the ball as far - if not further - than toe pokers, let alone FAR MORE ACCURATELY. I mean you're striking the ball with more hoof if you use the inside of the foot.

 

[Everlovin' Antichrist]

Stats do mean a helluva lot for goal kicking. Its not the same as comparing cricket batsmen who faced 80's bowlers and todays global mediocrity (bar Steyn). Its why we record them. Ridge came in 1990 with no tee on those same grounds and raised the bar. That bar was already set in union with leather balls on terrible grounds in the 70's and 80's with Fox, Lynagh, and co. All those kicks youtube posted are 30 and 35+ metres out Antichrist. THats my point to shoot down dumb dumb's idiotic statements that round the corner kickers cannot go more than 30 (in one post) and 35 (in another post) metres.

The tee argument is redundant and I have dismissed it previously. It was brought in to save time and did not assist with accuracy to begin with. Halligan, Fox, Porta, Bootha, Hastings, Botica, all the boys on leather balls and sand on non drained grounds kicked accurately and far. John Eales had a massive boot too. You're going backwards AntiChrist. Your assertion has already been discussed and dismissed. I can cut n paste the previous posts if you prefer if you cannot scroll back.

You brought up Cronin's 1986 record yet you didn't mention that he was almost blind in one when he played that year. And let me know if you've posted Cronin's career goalkicking percentage.

Cronin kicked almost 1/2 his NSWRL career goals at Cumberland Oval. Anyone who went there during Cronin's era will tell you that if was either a bog or cement, not the manicured lawns kickers from later eras had to put up with.

He wasn't the best kicker of all time but he was very, very good.

 

[Squatdog]

"Most likely". Seriously - are you comparing Auckland club rugby to NSWRL? Mate - I support the Kiwis but thats going a little too far don't cha think?

It was 'organised competition'

The article claimed that Rugby 'borrowed' organised competition from League.

What part of this can't you understand?

They responded in a chamelleon manner. That is, they protected themselves by emulating League's successful model.

So the Super 12 (a competition based across the entire southern hemisphere) was actually modeled on the Winfield Cup (a competition based around Sydney, with a few outliers)?

...and the franchises were regional bodies created and controlled by the Union, just like...oh wait.

In short; no.

You've already proven yourself as completely and utterly devoid of intelligence and comprehension but I will let you have a chance of looking like a demented ignoramus rather than a complete dribbling genius.

The Nazi's occupied all of France from 1940 onwards, 3/5ths under their complete control, the remainder under the Vichy regime which was a mere puppet state at the mercy of the nazis and which collaborated with the nazis. In 1942 the nazis dismantled this facade and continued to occupy France. The French RU asked the NAZI RUN Vichy government to ban league which they did.

LMFAO!!!

The other 2/5s was VICHY FRANCE, which was semi-autonomous and WASN'T OCCUPIED:

On 11 November 1942, the Germans launched Operation Case Anton, occupying southern France, following the landing of the Allies in North Africa (Operation Torch). Although Vichy's "Armistice Army" was disbanded, thus diminishing Vichy's independence, the abolition of the line of demarcation in March 1943 made civil administration easier. Vichy continued to exercise jurisdiction over almost all of France until the collapse of the Regime following the Allied invasion in June 1944.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Just stop.

 

[Squatdog]

Funny, the only name I recognise out of that lot is Halligan. Any idea why?

You'd think from your posts that the only goalkickers who made any impact on their sport were all Union players or ex-Union players. Kevin Longbottom kicked many goals from inside his own half way back in the 1960's but you may not have heard of him, he only played Rugby League.

Eion Crossan had the top goal-kicking percentage in 1992 and was in the Souths team solely for his kicking. The joke was that he would end up 5 metres backwards when he got the ball, but it was the price to pay for his radar boot.

I recall Rugby League Week (or Big League, I forget) had him in their 'dream team' because his kicking was so valuable to a team.

 

[ANTiLAG]

You brought up Cronin's 1986 record yet you didn't mention that he was almost blind in one when he played that year. And let me know if you've posted Cronin's career goalkicking percentage.

No I havn't. Dumb Dumb (*Loudstrat) claims I have - but I havn't.

Cronin kicked almost 1/2 his NSWRL career goals at Cumberland Oval. Anyone who went there during Cronin's era will tell you that if was either a bog or cement, not the manicured lawns kickers from later eras had to put up with.

He wasn't the best kicker of all time but he was very, very good.

Yep - the modern day round the corner kickers leave him for dead. Of course they do. That's my whole point.

Also - Robbie Deans( nigh every week), Grant Fox (every away game), Gavin Cooper (nigh every week) and all the 1980's NZRFU goal kickers played on grounds worse than that in NZ week in week out. They all kicked at tremendous rates with accuracy. Most grounds in NZ - including some test venues - were pretty much paddocks. Even the test grounds weren't level. There were a lot marshes played in the South Island. So sorry - this challenge does not hold.

League gave us Willie Horne - but the lasting and successful goal kicking revolution came from rugby. League was over a decade late in accurate goal kicking. But it came - first via Ridge, then Halligan, Crossan Botica, Schuster et al.

 

[Everlovin' Antichrist]

You don't recognise Botica? Clearly you missed Wigan's early 90's success. Or Kiwi tests vs GB and AUstralia. Or NSWRL in the mid 90's when he was at the Warriors.

Ok, I'll say it again.

Who?

You seem to think that I recall the name of every nuffy who played Rugby League.

I don't.

Played plenty of Rugby League in Australia did he?

Really - if you read all my posts and not just come into the tail end of the conversation I identify that Willie Horne was the first accurate round the corner kicker. He only played league, and was a superstar in the 1940's. Once again - you're going over ground already discussed. Scroll back and get the whole picture.

The whole picture was boring. I just zeroed in on your comments about Cronin.

Dumb dumb (*Loudstrat) said toe pokers are better and he'd take them any day because of distance. I merely responded that that is a ridiculous statement and demonstrated why. Round the corner kickers kick the ball as far - if not further - than toe pokers, let alone FAR MORE ACCURATELY. I mean you're striking the ball with more hoof if you use the inside of the foot.

You brought up Willie Horne.

If he was the best in the 1940's, why did round the corner kickers not become the norm until 40-50 years later?

That would seem to be a hole in your argument.

I would suggest that toe-poking was preferred as overall it was more accurate and longer with the leather balls and on the grounds used at the time.

If around the corner was better back in the 50's - 80's, there is no way that the coaches of those eras wouldn't have preferred their kickers to do that.

Jack Gibson was as innovative as any coach, yet Cronin was his goal kicker at Parramatta.

 

[Thomas]

If you want a history lesson about the 1950's watch the history channel or talk to your relatives who lived during these times. This discussion's focus is French RU and its actions against league during WWII.

You're aiming low if you're attempting to assist dopedog in that discussion.

No I don't want a history lesson about the 1950's. I'm asking you, as you seem to enjoy telling everyone you know everything about French Rugby League because you read a book once, if you can tell me why Rugby League in France declined following the Golden Age.

I am fully aware of the disgraceful acts done by the FRU during WW2. One of numerous horrible things that happened during that period. The question still remains, why did the FRL, who went through a boom period in the 50's, disintegrate into a shambles.

 

[ANTiLAG]

So the Super 12 (a competition based across the entire southern hemisphere) was actually modeled on the Winfield Cup (a competition based around Sydney, with a few outliers)?

Entire Southern hemisphere? India is in the Super 12? Brazil? Oh you mean countries that play that sport? Like Argentina? Nope. Well I guess you cannot say 'entire' Southern Hemisphere then . So SUper 12 took the NSWRL concept of more than one country competing in the tournament and found a third country... If PNG or SA had enough money and players - I am sure they'd have a club in the NRL. Its not viable. Union in SA is a different matter.

I like how you ignore my other responses. I take it you concede to them then?

 

[Squatdog]

Entire Southern hemisphere? India is in the Super 12? Brazil? Oh you mean countries that play that sport? Like Argentina? Nope. Well I guess you cannot say 'entire' Southern Hemisphere then . So SUper 12 took the NSWRL concept of more than one country competing in the tournament and found a third country... If PNG or SA had enough money and players - I am sure they'd have a club in the NRL. Its not viable. Union in SA is a different matter.

I like how you ignore my other responses. I take it you concede to them then?

Quoted before you edit.

India is in the southern hemisphere? Really?

 

[Everlovin' Antichrist]

No I havn't. Dumb Dumb (*Loudstrat) claims I have - but I havn't.



Yep - the modern day round the corner kickers leave him for dead. Of course they do. That's my whole point.

Also - Robbie Deans( nigh every week), Grant Fox (every away game), Gavin Cooper (nigh every week) and all the 1980's NZRFU goal kickers played on grounds worse than that in NZ week in week out. They all kicked at tremendous rates with accuracy. Most grounds in NZ - including some test venues - were pretty much paddocks. Even the test grounds weren't level. There were a lot marshes played in the South Island. So sorry - this challenge does not hold.

League gave us Willie Horne - but the lasting and successful goal kicking revolution came from rugby. League was over a decade late in accurate goal kicking. But it came - first via Ridge, then Halligan, Crossan Botica, Schuster et al.

Your argument reeks of chip on the shoulder syndrome.

Sheep shagger v Roo rooter stuff.

 

[Squatdog]

Let's see:

1995 Winfield Cup:

19 Australian teams (12 based in and around Sydney), 1 New Zealand team (2 hour flight from Sydney)

1996 Super 12:

3 Australian teams, 5 New Zealand teams, 4 South African teams (12 hour flight from Sydney to Cape Town)


...and I guess the Super 12 adopted the Winfield Cup's five-team final series seeing as it's a direct copy, right? Oh wait...

I like how you ignore my other responses. I take it you concede to them then?

You mean the NPC 'copying' the Winfield Cup?

It's possible, but still pure speculation.

 

[ANTiLAG]

Ok, I'll say it again.
Who?
You seem to think that I recall the name of every nuffy who played Rugby League.
I don't.
Played plenty of Rugby League in Australia did he?

Sorry - how does your lack of knowledge about league players assist you in this argument?

The whole picture was boring. I just zeroed in on your comments about Cronin.

How does missing the whole picture assist you in this argument?

You brought up Willie Horne.

If he was the best in the 1940's, why did round the corner kickers not become the norm until 40-50 years later?
That would seem to be a hole in your argument.

Why has leg spin bowling never become the norm? Clarrie Grimmet, Warnie even MacGill are so successful. Why is leg spin not the norm in cricket when it turns so much more and more attacking weapon with variation? Because its harder to learn. Because Willie did not pass on his training tips and knowledge he had accumulated. There was no tv analysis of it. Even then the critical thing to learn is where to strike the ball with your foot position. SOmething not really shown on TV. With the knowledge not being disseminated people did not 'know how' to do it. Like everything new. Now round the corner kicking is certainly a lot easier than leg spin bowling - but people still had to learn how to do it. In Union they started learning in the late 70's and by the early 80's it was everywhere. In League - you had to wait another 10+ years when the Union kickers and coaches came in and showed people how to do it. This was all discussed previously.

I would suggest that toe-poking was preferred as overall it was more accurate and longer with the leather balls and on the grounds used at the time.

But its not - refer to previous posts. Round the corner accurate kicking started with leather balls on sand on sh)t grounds. It was not more accurate and you do not get greater distance with a 'toe poke' unless you are a novice to round the corner kicking. Round the corner gets better distance and far greater accuracy when you 'know how.'

If around the corner was better back in the 50's - 80's, there is no way that the coaches of those eras wouldn't have preffered their kickers to do that.

Thats like saying theres no way an off spinner would make the Australian team after Grimmet or Warnie. Coaches have to work with what they've got. Also - the goal kicker has to actually play the game unlike NFL - so a lemming like Crossan with missed tackles may cost you the game despite great goal kicking. You've missed the point.

Jack Gibson was as innovative as any coach, yet Cronin was his goal kicker at Parramatta.

Once again - a coach has to work with what is at his disposal. Now with Stirling, Kenny, Atkins, Cronin, Ella, Grothe, Taylor owning their spots through their field play where exactly was he to put this goal kicker? I guess when Atkins left he could have sourced a gk in 1983 instead of Liddiard playing if there had been some available on the market. Guess there were none available on the market. I mean even in 1991/1992 the market was short - you had to goto union. Even then it was slim picking as to who would cross over. Kinda like decent leg spinners at the moment for cricket Australia. Alternatively, it was one innovation that passed Gibson by.

 

[ANTiLAG]

Quoted before you edit.

India is in the southern hemisphere? Really?

Hah. Meant to type Africa. Its no worse than your 'entire southern hemisphere' playing Super 12.

 

[ANTiLAG]

Your argument reeks of chip on the shoulder syndrome.

Sheep shagger v Roo rooter stuff.

Its not Kiwi vs Aussie. How could it possibly be when Im arguing with Squat that the NZ NPC stole from NSWRL? Jesus Christ. You really pick and choose posts don't ya? Must be your position and subsequent argument that is, though. Based onyour thought on the matter.