TWO new Brisbane teams

[Quidgybo]

Wild speculation.

What if the NRL surprises everyone and accepts not one, but two of the Brisbane bids? For example a true second Brisbane (city) team based in the inner suburbs and playing full time out of Suncorp, and another team based in either of Greater Brisbane’s major growth areas in the south-west or north.

If the NRL brought in two Brisbane teams (either in one go or more likely staggered over the life of a free to air television contract) it could satisfy several competing objectives and constituencies, and radically reshape the game’s accessibility and financial value in SE Queensland.


What we know:

1. In Peter V’Landys the game has a powerful new boss in the position politically to force thru change and the business acumen to get it done fast.
2. Both PVL and then NRL commercial chief, now interim CEO, Andrew Abdo went to LA during the off season to meet with Fox/News Corp heir and Broncos “fan/controlling shareholder” Lauchlin Murdoch to agree to expansion in Brisbane.
3. Channel Nine wants more content that appeals to their Brisbane/SE Queensland broadcast market and won’t significantly increase their financial commitment to the game for any other location.
4. Both Nine and Fox are lukewarm about a ninth game, apparently due to the difficulty finding additional profitable time slots but they’re not necessarily opposed in principle to more than 16 teams, especially if a new team is based in a high value market.
5. Fox have scheduled Sunday night games instead of Sunday afternoon games at different times of the year with satisfactory ratings. Using both slots or adding a fourth Saturday game would allow a ninth game without overlap.
6. PVL has stated that he isn’t interested in expanding into a “rusted on” AFL market like Perth.*
7. Phil Gould has been estranged from the game’s administration since the end of the Super League war, resisting any suggestion he take a role at League HQ and instead concentrating on club building at Penrith.
8. Gould and PVL have been effusive about each other. Gould says the game is lucky to have PVL in charge and must throw the book at keeping him. PVL says Gould knows the game better than anybody and that he can’t ignore such a source of experience.
9. Gould has always opposed the NRL’s centralised development model, where the clubs become just elite franchises. He believes development should be run primarily by the clubs thru their own junior leagues and player development pathways.
10. When pressed to take a bigger role now that the game’s administration is in PVL’s hands, Gould chose to take on rebuilding the games development pathways in New Zealand based on the Penrith model.
11. Of the competing bids for a new “Brisbane” team, the Redcliffe Dolphins most closely resemble the Gould model of a strong Rugby League club - a traditional community focused club that has grown from the grassroots, owns its own well run Leagues Club and adjacent boutique stadium, and runs its own juniors.
12. The Brisbane Bombers are the furthest bid from the Gould model - a privately owned franchise built on glitzy branding aimed at a broader “big city” entertainment market, with junior leagues left to state clubs and the QRL.
13. There are other bids backed by strong traditional state league clubs (eg. Easts). None of these currently have a home ground of their own anywhere near NRL standard or any choice of an existing government venue other than Suncorp.
14. The Queensland Government has a long standing policy of campaigning to bring more major sporting events and franchises to Queensland.
15. The Queensland Government has put its money where its mouth is over the past two decades, building modern new stadiums at Lang Park, Robina, Carrara and Townsville (along with a long running Gabba upgrade effort).
16. The only other place the Government has built a new fully NRL compliant venue is as part of a new sports precinct at Kawana on the Sunshine Coast.
17. Apart from the Sunshine Coast, Springfield in the massive south-west growth area straddling Ipswich and Logan is the only other place where the Government has developed a new sporting precinct with the express thinking it may one day develop into bigger venues.
18. “Everyone” (Government, NRL, Nine, non-Broncos fans in Brisbane) wants more NRL content at Suncorp Stadium, primarily expressed as the call for a second “Brisbane” team.
19. The Redcliffe Dolphins have long held NRL ambitions. They protected their Dolphins brand when the Titans wanted to use it because they may want to “enter the NRL” in the future.
20. Redcliffe has built built up its home ground, next to their long profitable Leagues Club, into a small boutique stadium which is fully NRL compliant except for “broadcast standard” lights.
21. The Dolphins have just applied for a Government grant to fund the $3m cost of the light upgrade.
22. Incidentally, the last upgrade to bring the Sunshine Coast Stadium up to full compliance was the Government funded addition of broadcast standard lights at the end of 2019.
23. The Sunshine Coast Council has approved plans to upgrade the stadium capacity from 12k to 16.5k by extending the western stand and adding an eastern stand and is seeking $68m from the Government for the project.
24. The LNP has committed to funding this upgrade if they win this year’s Queensland state election.
25. The most recent major extension to the Government’s mass transit rail network was the Redcliffe rail line which terminates at Kippa-Ring station, 2 km from the Dolphins home ground and Leagues Club.
26. A similar extension serving the Sunshine Coast, with a station directly next to Sunshine Coast Stadium, is planned for sometime after the Sunshine Coast light rail line is built (~2025), which will also stop at the stadium.
27. The only other major rail extensions built in recent years were the Gold Coast line, including the station right next to the Titans stadium at Robina; and the Springfield line with a station right next to the sports precinct.
28. Both the Redcliffe and future Coast rail extensions join the north coast main line. Related realignment and duplication upgrades on the main line will significantly improve travel times between the Sunshine Coast and northern suburbs of Brisbane, including Redcliffe.

What I think I know:

1. Phil Gould has PVL’s ear. If you hear Gould say the game should focus on this or that, you can bet that the “official” thinking isn’t far behind.
2. Gould has told PVL that the game’s next expansion outside its heartland should be New Zealand, not Perth*, but the development pathways and the Warriors part in that needs fixing before a second NZ team is feasible.
3. Gould has reassured PVL that there are enough players to support more teams, perhaps even a lot more in the long term. There are untapped gold mines of juniors in NSW, QLD and the Pacific. Based on his experience at Penrith, he thinks if you support the right development model, you’ll have juniors galore.
4. Both the Queensland government and Channel Nine want the next team based out of Suncorp and identifying as Brisbane (a globally recognised location).
5. The only places beyond Suncorp that the Government is planning to fully develop stadiums in the long term is at Kawana on the Sunshine Coast and Springfield in Ipswich-Logan.
6. The Redcliffe Dolphins are by far the strongest bid based on the Phil Gould club model. Other contenders like Ipswich-Logan and the Easts backed bids also win big points based on their community and development models.
7. The Dolphins see no real value in playing out of Suncorp full time, in the heart of established Broncos territory, far away from their own Leagues Club, home ground and traditional support base at the northern edge of Brisbane.
8. The Dolphins could be persuaded to split their games between their own boutique venue at Redcliffe and the larger Government supported venue on the Sunshine Coast to take advantage of the opportunity to lay claim to a larger exclusive market.

* Note about Perth:

PVL’s statement about not being interested in Perth shouldn’t be taken at face value. We know from the Storm experience that a key to securing a team’s future in a frontier non-League market is getting the right venue. The current rectangular stadium in Perth has developed into a great boutique sized venue but is hampered by limited corporate and team facilities squeezed into an old heritage listed grandstand. This limitation on their ability to maximise corporate support could be fatal for a young team trying to survive in hostile territory.

A new western stand in the model of BankWest would complete the venue’s transformation but it is also the most expensive part of the master plan. Rather than the NRL chasing the Government for the major upgrade to save a struggling new franchise, the NRL could let it be known that Perth isn’t getting a team under any circumstances until the Government commits funding to the upgrade. In the meantime, the game has “no interest” in Perth. Over to you, WA Government. This is pretty much the same deal the NRL pulled with the Titans. Gold Coast didn’t get their new team until the Queensland Government agreed to fund a new stadium.


FWIW, I think having a team based in Perth, Australia and New Zealand’s 3rd/4th biggest population centre and corporate market, is important for the game’s growth. I also believe another “Brisbane” team is important to the game’s financial future and place in popular culture. Whether a Perth team comes in concert with the next steps in Brisbane or subsequent to it, I think both are important targets for the game going forward.


Leigh.

 

[mongoose]

Donkeys is going to love this thread...

I will say the Sunshine Coast is looking like a great opportunity for expansion and i wonder why it's never been properly considered before since it has a bigger population than Townsville. But I don't think you can have both Redcliffe and Sunshine coast. If it's 2 SEQLD teams then one has to be based south of the Brisbane river... A Redcliffe/Sunshine Coast split team might work but it can't be the Dolphins. Sunshine Coast people won't support the Dolphins.

The NRL should be seriously looking at Perth though. They are basically conceding defeat to AFL/Union if they just want to focus on the east coast and NZ only.

 

[T-Boon]

A Redcliffe/Sunshine Coast split team might work but it can't be the Dolphins. Sunshine Coast people won't support the Dolphins.

Why?

 

[Perth Red]

haha, like there is going to be one new team, let alone two! I dont think you are understanding what a financial hit the NRL have taken, not just this year but in all likelihood for the next 7 years with reduced TV deals.Good luck finding $30mill a year for two new clubs. Next years annual report will make for grim reading.

As for Gould, not sure where you are getting all that from! He has flopped around from wanting more teams, to not wanting more teams, to wanting conferences, I'm not sure he knows what he thinks the game should do!
One thing he has been consistent on is that the NRL are in no way prepared for expasnion, have not done the research or developed the funding or business case for it and that they treat it as a sound bite when they want to sound like they know what they are doing. He has generally always said Perth needs to be an exoasnion place alongside Brisbane as the next two teams in

"I think our game has to look at particularly those two locations [Brisbane and Perth]. It's a conversation that should be going on."

https://wwos.nine.com.au/nrl/phil-g...hn-ribot/5ecaff37-d33d-4b6e-b34a-d811e2932ea0

The NRL should have a second club in Brisbane and a team in Perth before the next broadcast rights deal, Phil Gould says.
https://wwos.nine.com.au/nrl/reloca...peak-out/a2c18041-829e-45d9-9bdd-9bff38820c17

Once again NRL have missed a golden opportunity in the West. This Govt is by far the most RL friendly Govt I have seen in my 20 years here, and working in partnership with them to deliver a CoE for NRLWA and a future NRL club alongside a new western corporate stand at NIB should have been started a few years ago with Origin, nines, world cup etc part of the plan. Our game is so short sighted and reactive that the idea of a strategic plan to expand into a place like Perth is way beyond their capabilities.

 

[Perth Red]

Why?

Well you cnat have it both ways, either tribalism is a strength to be built on or doesnt really matter! If tribalism is such a big thing then expecting a Sunshine coast population to flock to support a historic Brisbane club in big numbers is never happening.

 

[mongoose]

Why?

because the Dolphins are a Redcliffe team. Maybe a new brand where both sets of fans feel like it represents them might work but Dolphins will always be seen as Redcliffe to the people of Sunshine coast.

 

[ash the bash]

Interesting topic, however I recall seeing Gould answer a fans question about a Brisbane team on twitter. His response was "has to be a club that appeals to all of Brisbane not a suburban club"...

I agree in an ideal world you would have 3 "greater" Brisbane teams.
1. City - Brisbane Broncos 12 Suncorp
2. North - Redcliffe Dolphins 10 games Dolphin Oval 2 Suncorp
3. South of River/SW Brisbane - Either Jets 10 North Ipswich Reserve 2 Suncorp or Brisbane Firehawks 12 Suncorp.

 

[Bring back John Fifita]

If there are to be two new teams in Qld, I’d suggest only one would be based in Brisbane.

As for the other, it’d have to be somewhere like the Sunshine Coast but I’m not sure that the relatively small population base there would give a strong ROI.

On another note - I watched a retro game on Kayo yesterday, Broncos v Crushers. Geez it was awesome to watch... love the crushers kit (in hindsight). 2 Brissy teams def the way to go in my opinion. And even though there’s probably more chance of Tasmania getting an NRL team, I’d love it if the Crushers were resurrected in name ... Brisbane Crushers.

 

[mongoose]

If there are to be two new teams in Qld, I’d suggest only one would be based in Brisbane.

As for the other, it’d have to be somewhere like the Sunshine Coast but I’m not sure that the relatively small population base there would give a strong ROI.

On another note - I watched a retro game on Kayo yesterday, Broncos v Crushers. Geez it was awesome to watch... love the crushers kit (in hindsight). 2 Brissy teams def the way to go in my opinion. And even though there’s probably more chance of Tasmania getting an NRL team, I’d love it if the Crushers were resurrected in name ... Brisbane Crushers.

Sunshine Coast has the same population as central coast, almost exactly.

 

[T-Boon]

because the Dolphins are a Redcliffe team. Maybe a new brand where both sets of fans feel like it represents them might work but Dolphins will always be seen as Redcliffe to the people of Sunshine coast.

I just doubt that people care very much about Qld cup rivalries and I think they would get over the rivalry quickly if they had a team in the NRL playing up there 6-8 games a year.

 

[The Great Dane]

I can’t be bothered to go through point by point, so I’m just going to say what I always say when people suggest 3 Brisbane clubs; who misses out so Brisbane can have team number 3?

The NRL has limited space in the competition and limited resources, they can only fit so many teams in the competition without restructuring it and/or negatively effecting the on field product, two things they’ve proven loathe to do in the past.
So for Brisbane to have number 3 somebody else, whom is at least as valuable to the sport, if not more valuable, in different ways, has got to make way for that to happen.

If you are suggesting that a Sydney team makes way for it then maybe I can get behind it, but I find it very hard to justify Brisbane getting a third if other potential expansion markets like Perth, Adelaide, NZ, Melbourne, even your PNGs’ and CCs’ of the world, miss out as a result.

 

[Bring back John Fifita]

Sunshine Coast has the same population as central coast, almost exactly.

understood and had looked at this when I did the research for the Adelaide thread.

And as I posted/thought there, I think the relatively small populations of these centres are a factor that weighs against them by comparison to others.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

I just doubt that people care very much about Qld cup rivalries and I think they would get over the rivalry quickly if they had a team in the NRL playing up there 6-8 games a year.

I'm with T-Boon. I support Wynnum Manly Seagulls in the Queensland Cup, but it wouldn't deter me from following the Brisbane Firehawks, Ipswich Jets or Redcliffe Dolphins at NRL level.

In an ideal world the Broncos' licence would be handed to one of the bids, but it won't happen. Broncos to sit in the museum with the Crushers, Reds, Rams, Bears and Mariners. I'd be happy. I know it will never happen, but it would be great if Norths Devils and Wests Panthers joined to form Brisbane Devils, Easts and Wynnum joined to become East Coast Seagulls. Redcliffe and Sunshine Coast joined to create Moreton Bay Dolphins to the 3 representatives of Brisbane. Even better if the Titans and Fortitude Valley team up to become Gold Coast Diehards. So a total of 4 BRL clubs representing Brisbane, Gold coast, Moreton Bay/Sunshine Coast.

 

[flippikat]

Another spin is, what if 2 Brisbane clubs were added, and struggling Sydney clubs were encouraged to relocate to Perth, Adelaide, New Zealand or Central Coast?

 

[The Great Dane]

I'm with T-Boon. I support Wynnum Manly Seagulls in the Queensland Cup, but it wouldn't deter me from following the Brisbane Firehawks, Ipswich Jets or Redcliffe Dolphins at NRL level.

In an ideal world the Broncos' licence would be handed to one of the bids, but it won't happen. Broncos to sit in the museum with the Crushers, Reds, Rams, Bears and Mariners. I'd be happy. I know it will never happen, but it would be great if Norths Devils and Wests Panthers joined to form Brisbane Devils, Easts and Wynnum joined to become East Coast Seagulls. Redcliffe and Sunshine Coast joined to create Moreton Bay Dolphins to the 3 representatives of Brisbane. Even better if the Titans and Fortitude Valley team up to become Gold Coast Diehards. So a total of 4 BRL clubs representing Brisbane, Gold coast, Moreton Bay/Sunshine Coast.

If it was true that your loyalties to your club in the QRL would have no impact on you supporting a team in the NRL then you'd be a Broncos supporter... But instead here you are unironically suggesting that the death of the most successful RL club in the world would be 'ideal' because of your loyalties to your club and the BRL/QRL.

 

[The Great Dane]

Another spin is, what if 2 Brisbane clubs were added, and struggling Sydney clubs were encouraged to relocate to Perth, Adelaide, New Zealand or Central Coast?

You'd add two clubs in Brisbane and all the clubs in Sydney would refuse to relocate lol.

If the clubs were going to voluntarily relocate they would have done it by now.

 

[flippikat]

You'd add two clubs in Brisbane and all the clubs in Sydney would refuse to relocate lol.

If the clubs were going to voluntarily relocate they would have done it by now.

Fair point. I have to admit, it sounded pretty far-fetched as I was typing it.. but it'd be one almighty curveball if the NRL went down that path!

 

[The Great Dane]

Fair point. I have to admit, it sounded pretty far-fetched as I was typing it.. but it'd be one almighty curveball if the NRL went down that path!

The only way the NRL will ever go down that path is if they force clubs to relocate, and frankly, I don't think they have the balls.

 

[Perth Red]

The only way the NRL will ever go down that path is if they force clubs to relocate, and frankly, I don't think they have the balls.

i know they don’t, nor do they have the vision to actually even think of it! 20 years time we will still be an east coast sport.

 

[The Great Dane]

i know they don’t, nor do they have the vision to actually even think of it! 20 years time we will still be an east coast sport.

You never know another John Ribot or similar style of character could come along, take power, and change everything overnight.

I mean a couple of years ago nobody would have predicted that somebody with the forceful character of V'Landys would ever take control of the NRL or get things done the way he has (whether you agree with what he has done or not).

I agree that it's extremely unlikely though.