Nick Livermore speaks gibberish about expansion

[Perth Red]

GWS are operating in a distinct area of Sydney as the AFL representative within that region and this is an area with a population bigger than Perth…
It’s also the strongest area for RL in the city…

My entire arguments in this thread is how difficult it is for a new sport to come into an area that is heavily dominanted by another football code and have any real success… even when they throw a ton of money at it like the AFL

I honestly don’t know how you can pretend you don’t understand this point

Again though they are a second AFL club in a RL mad city put in area that had zero demand for the club. That is totally different to the Perth NRL scenario.

Of course it is difficult, no one has argued differently, but it is not impossible and has been proven many times over how possible it is to create a decent new market for a sport in a new city. Being difficult is certainly not an excuse not to do something

 

[Perth Red]

Yeah … because he needs me to encourage him.. lol

I took a few years break from this zoo, returning the last few weeks…
Did he stop talking about AFL whilst I was away?

you where the one who brought Sydney, swans and GWS into the discussion dumbo

 

[BuffaloRules]

you where the one who brought Sydney, swans and GWS into the discussion dumbo

Because you never mention them otherwise you numpty ..

Well … maybe not GWS …

 

[BuffaloRules]

Again though they are a second AFL club in a RL mad city put in area that had zero demand for the club. That is totally different to the Perth NRL scenario.

Of course it is difficult, no one has argued differently, but it is not impossible and has been proven many times over how possible it is to create a decent new market for a sport in a new city. Being difficult is certainly not an excuse not to do something

Im agreeing to bring them in … but I don’t see them being successful in the Perth market ….

As i have often said in the past …their value to the NRL is a live window back to the East Coast in Time zones that aren’t friendly to be playing games in Sydney and Brisbane

 

[Perth Red]

Im agreeing to bring them in … but I don’t see them being successful in the Perth market ….

As i have often said in the past …their value to the NRL is a live window back to the East Coast in Time zones that aren’t friendly to be playing games in Sydney and Brisbane

Then we will have to respectfully agree to disagree. I think they have every chance of being successful all things going well. Certainly the best chance of a successful NRL club in an AFL city not yet covered.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

and swans have been hugely succeful. Interesting you are focusing on struggles of GWS rather than success of the swans in terms of growing new markets?

Putting a second melbourne team in would be akin to GWS, putting one team in perth is nothing like GWS scenario

Last time we had a team we had 10k players in a city of 1million. We now have 4000 in a city of 2.3million. Maybe an NRL team is what we need to get back to the 90's numbers of Jnrs?

The Swans haven't grown in any significant way since the SL War. Success? Or

yes and no. No ones dismissing tv ratings, juts that ultimately it hasnt harmed theAFL, whilst all the other metrics have made the Swanas a signifcant pro sports club in a non afl city.
Like I said despite the Swans Tv audience AFL continues to dominate tv deals in value. Revenue, attendance, sponsorship, jnr development. these are the bedrock of a successful pro club, and Swans tick all those boxes and then some. If Perth can get close to the Swans success it will be a great outcome for NRL.

GWS is a basketcase because Sydney doesnt need 2 AFL clubs. They believe long term it will work and strengthen their national profile and subsequent value and are willing to invest heavily for a long period in it. But there is zero correlation between GWS and a Perth NRL club. I have no idea why you keep mentioning them in the same sentence.

Number of stadiums in london isnt a problem. Broncos having a decent suitable one for more than 5 years is it would appear.

The Swans aren't a significant team in Sydney though. Not significant to the average Sydney sider. Their TV ratings are atrocious and their attendance has been stagnate since the SL War leg up they got 25 years ago. They are showing no growth signs. GWS will not get a SL War boost and will struggle to grow alongside the Swans

 

[Perth Red]

The Swans haven't grown in any significant way since the SL War. Success? Or

The Swans aren't a significant team in Sydney though. Not significant to the average Sydney sider. Their TV ratings are atrocious and their attendance has been stagnate since the SL War leg up they got 25 years ago. They are showing no growth signs. GWS will not get a SL War boost and will struggle to grow alongside the Swans

Haha take your nrl glasses off. 62k members, 30-35k crowd avg, $35million plus football club revenue. That we could have more nrl clubs the size of the swans!

 

[Wb1234]

and swans have been hugely succeful. Interesting you are focusing on struggles of GWS rather than success of the swans in terms of growing new markets?

Putting a second melbourne team in would be akin to GWS, putting one team in perth is nothing like GWS scenario

Last time we had a team we had 10k players in a city of 1million. We now have 4000 in a city of 2.3million. Maybe an NRL team is what we need to get back to the 90's numbers of Jnrs?

Giants need another super league war to give them a leg up

the failure to take up the giants is what the swans would have faced if not for super league

 

[Wb1234]

Haha take your nrl glasses off. 62k members, 30-35k crowd avg, $35million plus football club revenue. That we could have more nrl clubs the size of the swans!

Let’s say 35 and be generous

take off scg 20k members

15k paying fans

and maybe 30k more on tv

 

[Perth Red]

Let’s say 35 and be generous

take off scg 20k members

15k paying fans

and maybe 30k more on tv

haha 18k scg member go to every swans games? and if they do they are still part of the fanbase. No ones sitting for 3 hours watching a game they dont like. Also you do realise swans get a cut of that membership revenue dont you?
$35mill Fc revenue would suggest a very active fanbase wouldnt it?

 

[Perth Red]

Giants need another super league war to give them a leg up

the failure to take up the giants is what the swans would have faced if not for super league

youve been told before the numerous reasons Swans got succesful in th emid 90's, Sl war was a minor one. Not many Rl fans are softcks like you and jumped ship and stayed there.

GWs will never be a big club imo, in fact I wouldnt be surprised to see them move to Canberra Ft at some point in the future if the AFL coffers ever start to run dry.
Sydney cant sustain two big AFL clubs anymore than melbourne could sustain two big NRL clubs.
AFL have a very long term strategy to be the number one national football code and GWS are part of that, how long they can hold that strategy for we shall see. I suppose getting a massive revenue increase in 2025 isnt going to hurt them continue to throw money at them.

 

[Wb1234]

haha 18k scg member go to every swans games? and if they do they are still part of the fanbase. No ones sitting for 3 hours watching a game they dont like. Also you do realise swans get a cut of that membership revenue dont you?
$35mill Fc revenue would suggest a very active fanbase wouldnt it?

No they don’t

it’s like 10k for memberships goes to the trust

swans most years are lucky to break even

watch a swans game and see how full the members pavilions are

youve been told before the numerous reasons Swans got succesful in th emid 90's, Sl war was a minor one. Not many Rl fans are softcks like you and jumped ship and stayed there.

GWs will never be a big club imo, in fact I wouldnt be surprised to see them move to Canberra Ft at some point in the future if the AFL coffers ever start to run dry.
Sydney cant sustain two big AFL clubs anymore than melbourne could sustain two big NRL clubs.
AFL have a very long term strategy to be the number one national football code and GWS are part of that, how long they can hold that strategy for we shall see. I suppose getting a massive revenue increase in 2025 isnt going to hurt them continue to throw money at them.

You were in England then how would you know

guess where I was ?

ah yeh Sydney

 

[Perth Red]

No they don’t

it’s like 10k for memberships goes to the trust

swans most years are lucky to break even

You were in England then how would you know

guess where I was ?

ah yeh Sydney

Yeh in Sydney, supporting the swans lol

Swans will get a cut of the memberships. or they will get a good stadium deal based on seats unavailable to sell. Either way fans are turning up and the Swans are making money. More in FC revenue than pretty much any NRL club in Sydney. Thats a damning situation I have to say.

Point remains NRL would be pleased to have any club the size of Swans, let alone an expansion club in a non heartland city. 35k crowds, 60k members $30-35mill FC revenue. Most of our clubs dont come close. They earn $28.5mill from sponsors, fans and match day (2021). How's that compare to most NRl clubs?

 

[Wb1234]

Yeh in Sydney, supporting the swans lol

Swans will get a cut of the memberships. or they will get a good stadium deal based on seats unavailable to sell. Either way fans are turning up and the Swans are making money. More in FC revenue than pretty much any NRL club in Sydney. Thats a damning situation I have to say.

Point remains NRL would be pleased to have any club the size of Swans, let alone an expansion club in a non heartland city. 35k crowds, 60k members $30-35mill FC revenue. Most of our clubs dont come close. They earn $28.5mill from sponsors, fans and match day (2021). How's that compare to most NRl clubs?

Show evidence where the swans get money from the old scg trust

stop making up bs

it’s the same for the cricket

people who show up to games for free shouldn’t be a reflection of a sports popularity

 

[Perth Red]

Show evidence where the swans get money from the old scg trust

stop making up bs

it’s the same for the cricket

people who show up to games for free shouldn’t be a reflection of a sports popularity

show me some evidence they arent. They are earning $30-35mil a year. That isnt coming off the back of 15k fans!

 

[Wb1234]

show me some evidence they arent. They are earning $30-35mil a year. That isnt coming off the back of 15k fans!

show me some evidence they arent. They are earning $30-35mil a year. That isnt coming off the back of 15k fans!

Dumb argument

the best metric is how many people want to pay to watch a sport

that’s obviously rugby league

 

[Perth Red]

Dumb argument

the best metric is how many people want to pay to watch a sport

that’s obviously rugby league

Swans fan generated revenue 2021 $13.5mill. You dont think people are paying to support them? lol
Sydneys biggest NRl clubs generated less than $10mill, some less than $5mill.

No one is saying rugby league isnt popular, stop being afraid, this whole discussion came about as someone said its hard for sports to grow in non traditional areas, it is but Swans are the perfect example that it is possible. Not only are they a sustainable club but they are actually thriving by any meaningful metric. If a Perth NRl club can be half the size of the Swans I'll be very happy!

 

[Wb1234]

Swans fan generated revenue 2021 $13.5mill. You dont think people are paying to support them? lol
Sydneys biggest NRl clubs generated less than $10mill, some less than $5mill.

No one is saying rugby league isnt popular, stop being afraid, this whole discussion came about as someone said its hard for sports to grow in non traditional areas, it is but Swans are the perfect example that it is possible. Not only are they a sustainable club but they are actually thriving by any meaningful metric. If a Perth NRl club can be half the size of the Swans I'll be very happy!

Afraid lmao

afl is a pimple on the sporting backside of Sydney

with no legs up the giants have been shunned by one of the biggest parts of Sydney

 

[The Great Dane]

Whether or not the Giants will ever be considered a success is only a matter of time and money.

The more generational support they can build, the more likely they are to succeed, and the AFL have known that from the beginning. From that point it becomes a question of how long can the AFL afford to keep running them at a loss, and something tells me that the AFL will be happy to bankroll them for a very long time considering that they're already making a return from the increase in broadcast and sponsorship value that the 9th game brings.

Sure it's possible that a future administration could look at the Giants, and Suns for that matter, and decide that they could be profitable overnight if they relocated them to more Aussie Rules friendly markets. But the AFL is known for it's long term planning and willingness to bleed money for a better future, so I can't see that happening unless the AFL are forced into it because of extreme financial distress caused by some unforeseeable reason (even then I'm not convinced that the Giants would be the first side they let go).

It's really too soon to even start discussing whether or not they're seriously failing given their circumstances anyway. We'll need to wait at least a generation before it becomes obvious whether or not they're really meeting their targets and connecting with the community, and that doesn't come around for another 9 years (2032).

TL;DR: GWS aren't as much of a financial burden on the AFL as many people like to make out, and they aren't going anywhere anytime soon unless some totally unpredictable, catastrophic, disaster happens that could hypothetically happen to any team in any league. I also reckon that if there's further relocation/rationalisation in the AFL at all, that it's much more likely to be the smaller Melbourne clubs doing the relocating (Norths or St Kilda), not GWS.

You should be following the Super Rugby sides if you want teams in other codes that actually have a realistic chance of folding to death ride. Rumour is that at least two of them are borderline insolvent as we speak, and the rest can't be far away.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

Haha take your nrl glasses off. 62k members, 30-35k crowd avg, $35million plus football club revenue. That we could have more nrl clubs the size of the swans!

My point stands, they have shown no growth. They were averaging 35k in the late 90s and their TV ratings are still abysmal after 40 years in Sydney.

62k members- lol we've all seen how irrelevant and rubbery membship numbers are now that NRL teams are cottoning on to the tricks on how to inflate the numbers