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Nick Livermore speaks gibberish about expansion

titoelcolombiano

First Grade
Messages
5,623
youve been told before the numerous reasons Swans got succesful in th emid 90's, Sl war was a minor one. Not many Rl fans are softcks like you and jumped ship and stayed there.

GWs will never be a big club imo, in fact I wouldnt be surprised to see them move to Canberra Ft at some point in the future if the AFL coffers ever start to run dry.
Sydney cant sustain two big AFL clubs anymore than melbourne could sustain two big NRL clubs.
AFL have a very long term strategy to be the number one national football code and GWS are part of that, how long they can hold that strategy for we shall see. I suppose getting a massive revenue increase in 2025 isnt going to hurt them continue to throw money at them.
If SL was such a minor part of it, then why was there a huge growth spurt in their attendance coincidentally between 1995 and 1997 and zero froth in average attendances since?

Swans President at the time admitted that the SL War was a godsend for the struggling swans
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,888
If SL was such a minor part of it, then why was there a huge growth spurt in their attendance coincidentally between 1995 and 1997 and zero froth in average attendances since?

Swans President at the time admitted that the SL War was a godsend for the struggling swans
Yep that 'growth spurt' had absolutely nothing to do with them going from being one of the most poorly run and dysfunctional clubs in the league, perennial cellar dwellers that won three spoons in a row from 92-94, to completely overhauling their administration into one of the finest football operations in the country, signing Tony Lockett, making the finals for the first time in 9 years, and going into a golden period that started in 96 with them making their first GF appearance since 1945 and moving to Sydney.

A golden period for the club that continues to this day, where they're the biggest club of any code in Sydney and one of the best run sport's clubs in the country, they've only missed the finals 5 times in the 26 years since 96, made the GF 6 time winning two premierships in 05 (their fist since 1933) and 2012. Their revenue, sponsorship value, membership numbers, local draftees and participation numbers, etc, etc, have all steadily grown, and they've been a key factor in Aussie Rules steady growth across NSW outside of Sydney as well (with the admitted exception of parts of Southern NSW where Aussie Rules was already big), where the sport would still be a totally inconsequential niche comparable to niche sports like e.g. baseball or gridiron if it wasn't for their existence and strength.

Yeah their success is totally just a flash in the pan because of SL, and all their fans are just disaffected RL fans old enough to remember the "horror" of the SL war! It's only a matter of time before they file for bankruptcy now that RL has well and truly gotten over the SL war for the better part of 20 years. . . Any day now I tell you!!!

Stop embarrassing yourself...
 

mongoose

Coach
Messages
11,628
I will just lay it out on the table

Things I like about AFL:

Long term vision
willing to fund expansion in new markets
well run and organised
funding into grassroots
ability to get money out of governments, ability to get stadiums funded and built
membership culture
well thought out stadium policy
better at keeping traditions than us
less advertisement on jerseys

Things I hate:
Their comp seems very compromised, even more than ours

their pathetic "look at me, look at me" thing they have to do, especially when other big sports events are on.

the sweeping under the rug and their general relationship with the media, i.e. trying to stage manage everything - i wouldn't want that for the NRL

fudging metrics - NRL does it too but AFL are the kings of it

their attempts to look woke - AFLW expanded too quickly. They think they have some special connection with indigenous peoples even though areas of their game has been exposed as having systematic racism. The NRL has just as many if not more indigenous players and doesn't make a big song and dance about it at every opportunity.

Like our game their game is run by "old boys" but their old boys seem to have carte blanche in Victoria and the southern states which has resulted in this racist, patriarchal culture spreading throughout their game.

The sport itself is just boring and messy. It's hard to follow not because it has complex rules but because its hard to see any kind of tactics or patterns in play... but to each their own
 

BuffaloRules

Coach
Messages
14,305
youve been told before the numerous reasons Swans got succesful in th emid 90's, Sl war was a minor one. Not many Rl fans are softcks like you and jumped ship and stayed there.

GWs will never be a big club imo, in fact I wouldnt be surprised to see them move to Canberra Ft at some point in the future if the AFL coffers ever start to run dry.
Sydney cant sustain two big AFL clubs anymore than melbourne could sustain two big NRL clubs.
AFL have a very long term strategy to be the number one national football code and GWS are part of that, how long they can hold that strategy for we shall see. I suppose getting a massive revenue increase in 2025 isnt going to hurt them continue to throw money at them.

Maybe the AFL should put more money into GWS to help them…

$200M+ extra to date is clearly not enough
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
66,819
I will just lay it out on the table

Things I like about AFL:

Long term vision
willing to fund expansion in new markets
well run and organised
funding into grassroots
ability to get money out of governments, ability to get stadiums funded and built
membership culture
well thought out stadium policy
better at keeping traditions than us
less advertisement on jerseys

Things I hate:
Their comp seems very compromised, even more than ours

their pathetic "look at me, look at me" thing they have to do, especially when other big sports events are on.

the sweeping under the rug and their general relationship with the media, i.e. trying to stage manage everything - i wouldn't want that for the NRL

fudging metrics - NRL does it too but AFL are the kings of it

their attempts to look woke - AFLW expanded too quickly. They think they have some special connection with indigenous peoples even though areas of their game has been exposed as having systematic racism. The NRL has just as many if not more indigenous players and doesn't make a big song and dance about it at every opportunity.

Like our game their game is run by "old boys" but their old boys seem to have carte blanche in Victoria and the southern states which has resulted in this racist, patriarchal culture spreading throughout their game.

The sport itself is just boring and messy. It's hard to follow not because it has complex rules but because its hard to see any kind of tactics or patterns in play... but to each their own
Wouldn't disagree with any of that. Any ways back to NRL expansion.
 

BuffaloRules

Coach
Messages
14,305
Yep that 'growth spurt' had absolutely nothing to do with them going from being one of the most poorly run and dysfunctional clubs in the league, perennial cellar dwellers that won three spoons in a row from 92-94, to completely overhauling their administration into one of the finest football operations in the country, signing Tony Lockett, making the finals for the first time in 9 years, and going into a golden period that started in 96 with them making their first GF appearance since 1945 and moving to Sydney.

A golden period for the club that continues to this day, where they're the biggest club of any code in Sydney and one of the best run sport's clubs in the country, they've only missed the finals 5 times in the 26 years since 96, made the GF 6 time winning two premierships in 05 (their fist since 1933) and 2012. Their revenue, sponsorship value, membership numbers, local draftees and participation numbers, etc, etc, have all steadily grown, and they've been a key factor in Aussie Rules steady growth across NSW outside of Sydney as well (with the admitted exception of parts of Southern NSW where Aussie Rules was already big), where the sport would still be a totally inconsequential niche comparable to niche sports like e.g. baseball or gridiron if it wasn't for their existence and strength.

Yeah their success is totally just a flash in the pan because of SL, and all their fans are just disaffected RL fans old enough to remember the "horror" of the SL war! It's only a matter of time before they file for bankruptcy now that RL has well and truly gotten over the SL war for the better part of

Getting extra draft picks and salary cap certainly helps the Swans final hopes each year …( and I see the Giants have made the finals this year as well) although I don’t know if it’s really fair to the other teams

Maybe the NRL should follow suit and have the Sydney clubs be provided with increased salary caps ? The Cost of living excuse the AFL provides applies for the NRL players as well?
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,888
Getting extra draft picks and salary cap certainly helps the Swans final hopes each year …( and I see the Giants have made the finals this year as well) although I don’t know if it’s really fair to the other teams

Maybe the NRL should follow suit and have the Sydney clubs be provided with increased salary caps ? The Cost of living excuse the AFL provides applies for the NRL players as well?
I'd have no problem with expansion clubs in new, "non-heartland", markets, or other teams that face distinct disadvantages because of geographical and/or socio-economic impacts that aren't addressed within the cap, being given some sort of cap dispensation to attempt to address those issues. I'd actually welcome it, and think that the cap has needed significant updating and rehauling for a long time now.

Personally I think it'd be pretty difficult to argue that any of the Sydney clubs would/should qualify for any of that dispensation, however I could be convinced.

In the case of the AFL and Swans specifically; yeah by the end the AFL were taking the piss with the Swans extra draft picks and salary cap exemptions, but the idea is a good one and taking those impacts into account is something that the AFL does much better than the NRL.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
66,819
I’ve said it before but rather than just different cap levels geographically disadvantaged and new clubs should be given extra cap space to sign players from outside nrl. Increase player depth and help clubs who struggle to sign players.
 

titoelcolombiano

First Grade
Messages
5,623
Yep that 'growth spurt' had absolutely nothing to do with them going from being one of the most poorly run and dysfunctional clubs in the league, perennial cellar dwellers that won three spoons in a row from 92-94, to completely overhauling their administration into one of the finest football operations in the country, signing Tony Lockett, making the finals for the first time in 9 years, and going into a golden period that started in 96 with them making their first GF appearance since 1945 and moving to Sydney.

A golden period for the club that continues to this day, where they're the biggest club of any code in Sydney and one of the best run sport's clubs in the country, they've only missed the finals 5 times in the 26 years since 96, made the GF 6 time winning two premierships in 05 (their fist since 1933) and 2012. Their revenue, sponsorship value, membership numbers, local draftees and participation numbers, etc, etc, have all steadily grown, and they've been a key factor in Aussie Rules steady growth across NSW outside of Sydney as well (with the admitted exception of parts of Southern NSW where Aussie Rules was already big), where the sport would still be a totally inconsequential niche comparable to niche sports like e.g. baseball or gridiron if it wasn't for their existence and strength.

Yeah their success is totally just a flash in the pan because of SL, and all their fans are just disaffected RL fans old enough to remember the "horror" of the SL war! It's only a matter of time before they file for bankruptcy now that RL has well and truly gotten over the SL war for the better part of 20 years. . . Any day now I tell you!!!

Stop embarrassing yourself...
Occam's razor mate...

Again, Swans chairman admitted at the time the boost that the SL war gave them. Deny it all you want. But they have shown zero growth since.
 

Colk

First Grade
Messages
6,635
Getting extra draft picks and salary cap certainly helps the Swans final hopes each year …( and I see the Giants have made the finals this year as well) although I don’t know if it’s really fair to the other teams

Maybe the NRL should follow suit and have the Sydney clubs be provided with increased salary caps ? The Cost of living excuse the AFL provides applies for the NRL players as well?

I don’t think you understand why they do it based on your last paragraph.

Nevertheless, it is a trivial point as the NRL won’t do anything similar otherwise they would have already done so with the Storm and the regional clubs.
 

Colk

First Grade
Messages
6,635
Occam's razor mate...

Again, Swans chairman admitted at the time the boost that the SL war gave them. Deny it all you want. But they have shown zero growth since.

Gladly they haven’t experienced any significant growth but I think you are being a bit silly denying that their audiences don’t go up when they are going well and taper off when they aren’t. Same with the Lions.

Fumbleball and league have their rusted on audiences as well as people who are casual supporters who will watch big games or when their home teams are going well.
 

BuffaloRules

Coach
Messages
14,305
I don’t think you understand why they do it based on your last paragraph.

Nevertheless, it is a trivial point as the NRL won’t do anything similar otherwise they would have already done so with the Storm and the regional clubs.

I was joking about the NRL doing it…

But what do you mean I don’t understand it? The Swans we’re getting an increased salary cap for years and excused as “ cost of living allowance”

 

Colk

First Grade
Messages
6,635
I was joking about the NRL doing it…

But what do you mean I don’t understand it? The Swans we’re getting an increased salary cap for years and excused as “ cost of living allowance”


They would be getting it because most of their players would come from Victoria, SA and WA etc and they are given a benefit to try and recruit them from interstate.

A bit different to the NRL and Sydney.
 

titoelcolombiano

First Grade
Messages
5,623
Gladly they haven’t experienced any significant growth but I think you are being a bit silly denying that their audiences don’t go up when they are going well and taper off when they aren’t. Same with the Lions.

Fumbleball and league have their rusted on audiences as well as people who are casual supporters who will watch big games or when their home teams are going well.
They definitely drop when they aren't going well, but the fact is, they were pulling 35k in 1997 and they still haven't grown their averages beyond that.

What's the point of me bringing that up? It indicates as you say a small rusted on group of AFL fans and that the Swans (outside of the superleague leg-up) haven't been able to grow their average audiences (crowd or TV) since then like the NRL clubs have been able to (albeit slowly).
 

BuffaloRules

Coach
Messages
14,305
They would be getting it because most of their players would come from Victoria, SA and WA etc and they are given a benefit to try and recruit them from interstate.

A bit different to the NRL and Sydney.

The club was getting it until recently for them to spend on the salary cap as they saw fit … …hence why the AFL changed it to pay the players directly …did you read the article ? apparently it’s also limited to low salaried players as well these days…so superstars like Franklin getting a $1m a year aren’t included
 
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Colk

First Grade
Messages
6,635
The club was getting it until recently for them to spend on the salary cap as they saw fit … …hence why the AFL changed it to pay the players directly …did you read the article ? apparently it’s also limited to low salaried players as well these days…so superstars like Franklin getting a $1m a year aren’t included

Whether the AFL pay them or the Swans pay them is besides the point isn’t it. The reason for this advantage is acknowledging that most players come from say Victoria or Western Australia or South Australia and in order to help the Swans attract players they give them a leg up.

Now that doesn’t equate to the NRL and Sydney; it is in fact the opposite. If you grow up in Sydney or near Sydney then you have the choice of nine clubs to go to.

Compare that situation with say the Warriors, Storm, North Queensland or Canberra and the difficulty they have in enticing players from Sydney (in particular) to go there. That’s the equivalent to the Swans.
 

LimeRick

Juniors
Messages
72
You should be following the Super Rugby sides if you want teams in other codes that actually have a realistic chance of folding to death ride. Rumour is that at least two of them are borderline insolvent as we speak, and the rest can't be far away.

Wait, I haven't been paying much attention to union. Which two clubs?
 

BuffaloRules

Coach
Messages
14,305
Whether the AFL pay them or the Swans pay them is besides the point isn’t it. The reason for this advantage is acknowledging that most players come from say Victoria or Western Australia or South Australia and in order to help the Swans attract players they give them a leg up.

Now that doesn’t equate to the NRL and Sydney; it is in fact the opposite. If you grow up in Sydney or near Sydney then you have the choice of nine clubs to go to.

Compare that situation with say the Warriors, Storm, North Queensland or Canberra and the difficulty they have in enticing players from Sydney (in particular) to go there. That’s the equivalent to the Swans.

Mate .. if you can’t get it by now then you won’t get it…

The Swans and Giants for years were provided with a larger salary cap that they could spend to acquire better players … it was called a cost of liiving allowance … but essentially provided them with 10 percent extra …they could spend that additional amount to acquire another superstar player if they chose to …

Even eventually the AFL had to change their rules as it was proving to be too big an advantage as I pointed out in that article I posted …also it now goes to the lower paid players only …

Even though I have saiId I was joking about it applying to the NRL and Sydney … your point about how it doesn’t “ equate” to the NRL is not really relevant either… plenty of players in each Sydney based team come from outside of Sydney these days… whether it’s half like some NRL team or 95 percent like the Swans .. it’s the same argument …those players that move to Sydney from Regional NSW, QLD and NZ are the same as the Swans recruiting from VFL heartland …

But at the end of the day… the AFL‘s argument to justify it was that Sydney was more expensive to live than other cities .. so according to them it was irrelevant where you come from …you were entitled to more money because you played in Sydney
 
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MugaB

Coach
Messages
13,105
Swans we’re getting an increased salary cap for years and excused as “ cost of living allowance”

Thats what the NRL should do for the Storm,
that way they can keep their 2 premierships they cheated the cap on
Nah that yacht in my garage was for "cost of living purposes" ....thanks Inglis
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,888
Occam's razor mate...

Again, Swans chairman admitted at the time the boost that the SL war gave them. Deny it all you want. But they have shown zero growth since.
LOL, you can't genuinely believe that Occam's razor is on your side!!!

Tell me, what's is the simplest answer; A. that a team that traditionally struggled grew in popularity as they became better administered and more successful on the pitch, or B. that they only became successful because literally tens of thousands of people whom showed no prior interest in the sport suddenly started following them out of nowhere because of totally unrelated events happening in another sport...

That's simply not how human psychology or the market works.

There're multiple contributing factors as to why some of the Swans statistics have stagnated, but none of them are because the club has stopped growing.

BTW, there's a massive difference between saying current events gave them some sort of boost at the time and that the SL war is both solely responsible for the Swans growth and sustained success. Being the Swans chairman doesn't make him right anyway.
 
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