U20 comp given green light

[Striker]

the interesting thing that i read in that article is how casual the reporter stated that the QLD voters on the board were against the idea but NSW had more on the board so they were out voted.

personally this is where rugby league always fails as a national sport. there are too many organisations with their own agendas, i cannot see the NSWRL giving a stuff if the QLD cup fell over and the same thing could be said about the QRL regarding premier league.

i personally think the national u20 comp is a waste of time, although i hope i am proven wrong. but the money could be allocated elsewhere in the games development.

 

[nqboy]

the interesting thing that i read in that article is how casual the reporter stated that the QLD voters on the board were against the idea but NSW had more on the board so they were out voted.

personally this is where rugby league always fails as a national sport. there are too many organisations with their own agendas, i cannot see the NSWRL giving a stuff if the QLD cup fell over and the same thing could be said about the QRL regarding premier league.

i personally think the national u20 comp is a waste of time, although i hope i am proven wrong. but the money could be allocated elsewhere in the games development.

That is an interesting point. Decisions have long been made on a raft of issues, including national selection, based on petty state allegiances and who held the balance of power at the time.

After the abuses of power of Fulton and Anderson picking their cronies in the national side, I had great hopes when Bennett took the reins that his integrity would restore some credibility to the process, only to find that he was as bad as either at picking and standing by his own. And it has only continued with Stuart.

It's a great shame. Decisions should be made in the interests of the game at large.

 

[Quidgybo]

The under 20s comp WILL undermine the Qld Cup, if not cause its death. That's what is at stake. The NRL clubs in NSW don't care about that but I do and so should everyone else that claims to be a league supporter.

While it might see the death of the Queensland Cup and will almost certainly see the death of the NSWRL Premier League in its present form, that's not necessarily a bad thing. It all depends on what replaces them. There is no law of nature that states the second tier of Rugby League in Australia has to be state based competitions or run by the state governing bodies. As has been speculated in the WA Team thread, it's possible they could choose to run a single combined NSW+QLD (ie. National - in the RL sense of the word!) second tier competiton instead of the existing two state based comps. The best of what's left from each comp (after the U/20s players are taken out), concentrated into a single comp supported and run by the ARL.

The costs of such a comp would naturally be higher per club because the wider geographical spread. But then the comp would not need to support as many teams (12 or 14 instead of the present 24 between the Qld Cup and Premier League) and would be able to pool the financial resources of the QRL, NSWRL and ARL. Also, it would be able to sell a larger market to sponsors and television, as well as a higher standard of competition thru the concentration of the remaining players in comparison to the two split competitions. Ultimately, if it gets more media attention and produces stronger, more financially stable clubs then I think it'd go a long way to off setting any negative impact from the loss of the respective state competitions (where financial implosion is an annual ritual)

In simple terms the difference between the present structure and the above is that presently we divide second tier players (both U/20s and seniors) into two open age competitions by state. Whereas in the above we'd divide second tier players into two national competitions by age (U/20s and seniors). It's still the same players and the same number of competitions, just a different division.

Leigh.

 

[griff]

While it might see the death of the Queensland Cup and will almost certainly see the death of the NSWRL Premier League in its present form, that's not necessarily a bad thing. It all depends on what replaces them. There is no law of nature that states the second tier of Rugby League in Australia has to be state based competitions or run by the state governing bodies. As has been speculated in the WA Team thread, it's possible they could choose to run a single combined NSW+QLD (ie. National - in the RL sense of the word!) second tier competiton instead of the existing two state based comps. The best of what's left from each comp (after the U/20s players are taken out), concentrated into a single comp supported and run by the ARL.

The costs of such a comp would naturally be higher per club because the wider geographical spread. But then the comp would not need to support as many teams (12 or 14 instead of the present 24 between the Qld Cup and Premier League) and would be able to pool the financial resources of the QRL, NSWRL and ARL. Also, it would be able to sell a larger market to sponsors and television, as well as a higher standard of competition thru the concentration of the remaining players in comparison to the two split competitions. Ultimately, if it gets more media attention and produces stronger, more financially stable clubs then I think it'd go a long way to off setting any negative impact from the loss of the respective state competitions (where financial implosion is an annual ritual)

In simple terms the difference between the present structure and the above is that presently we divide second tier players (both U/20s and seniors) into two open age competitions by state. Whereas in the above we'd divide second tier players into two national competitions by age (U/20s and seniors). It's still the same players and the same number of competitions, just a different division.

Leigh.

The combination of Auckland and WA entering teams below the NRL level and the new U/20s comp definitely means there is a huge opportunity to re-structure all the competitions at the levels below the NRL.

At the moment the whole thing is a complete mess, with some Premier League and Queensland Cup teams being NRL reserve grade sides and others being standalone sides. Then there are the Newcastle and Illawarra comps, which are better quality than the JB Cup.

Compared with the English RL national leagues or the minor league baseball farm system there is no clear structure for players who aspire to play top level but who are too old for the junior system. Players with plenty to offer end up on the scrapheap at 22 and play in obscurity.

A national open age second tier comp I think is pretty pie in the sky. But having a link between re-organised QRL and NSWRL comps with the two premiers playing off on GF day as a curtainraiser to the NRL GF would be great.

Auckland Lions and WA joining a true NSWRL state league with teams like Norths, Newtown, Illawarra, Dubbo, Wagga and Queanbeyan and some of the top teams from Newcastle and the Central Coast would be a much higher standard than we currently have. A few years down the track a Port Moresby team could return to the Queensland Cup.

 

[East Coast Tiger]

A national senior comp below the NRL won't happen for so many reasons and if it did only a few clubs from the current competitions would be able to compete in it anyway. The reason they're scrapping PL is to cut costs, a national second tier comp on top of a national u20s comp would only blow those costs out even more. The QRL and NSWRL delegates don't even agree on the u20 comp so how are they going to run a national second tier comp together?

The idea for a truly statewide NSW comp is also unlikely. The only areas capable of supporting sides would be Sydney, Canberra District, Newcastle, Central Coast and Illawarra - basically all the places that already have NRL sides. Even then it'd take some convincing, especially in places like Newcastle where the local comp is strong. In Qld the only teams outside Brisbane/Gold Coast/Ipswich that have survived are the Young Guns (Cowboys) and Centrals who have never made the finals. Toowoomba had the Broncos behind it and still folded.

 

[Quidgybo]

I really don't see why a national second tier is pie in the sky. Nor do I see the many reasons that will prevent it from happening (apart from cost). Depending on how you look look at it, the concept can be seen as just an expanded Queensland Cup anyway. There are already a couple of factors that are pointing in that direction. We know that the WARL and Auckland are going to field teams in a long distance second tier comp in 2007/2008. And we know that majority of the existing second tier teams in NSW (the NRL Premier League sides) and the NQ Young Guns in Queensland are likely to withdraw in 2008. Given the distances already involved in travelling to NSW it is perfectly feasbile for Auckland and the WARL enter into the Queensland Cup instead (one self funded and the other funded by the ARL). And given the massive hole that will be left after the scrapping of Premier League, I don't think it's a big leap of logic to conclude that the best of what's left from NSW will follow (ie. Norths, Newtown and maybe a couple of Jim Beam Cup clubs - funded by Leagues clubs and/or the NSWRL). At that point, whether it remains under the control of the QRL or is taken over by the ARL, you basically have a "National" Second Division. Perhaps there'll be a rationalisation of numbers (down to six teams) in Queensland to cover the loss of players to the NRL U/20s and to allow the QRL to direct additional funding to strategic areas like Cairns and Toowoomba, but essentially the comp would remain an evolution of the Queensland Cup.

Redcliffe
Cairns
Toowoomba
Burleigh
Brisbane 1 (eg. Easts, Norths, Wynnum Manly)
Brisbane 2
Newtown
North Sydney / Central Coast
Sydney 1 (Jim Beam Cup clubs)
Sydney 2
Auckland Lions
WARL

Leigh.

 

[griff]

Cost is obviously the main factor, as is the resistance from the existing clubs and existing governing bodies.

In that model, the NSWRL essentially votes itself out of existence. That isn't going to happen easily.

A more likely and more cost effective model is for Premier League and JB Cup to merge and call for franchises from other interested teams for a state league.

From there you could work towards a national second tier comp in the long term by having separate NSWRL (with WA and Auckland) and QRL (with PNG and NT) conferences as a first step.

 

[Quidgybo]

Cost is obviously the main factor, as is the resistance from the existing clubs and existing governing bodies

In that model, the NSWRL essentially votes itself out of existence. That isn't going to happen easily.

Well if the NRL clubs pull out of the Premier League then that decision is basically taken out of the NSWRL's hands anyway (existence in terms of running their own second tier competition, not their existence as a governing body). They won't have a second tier comp to protect or more than a couple second tier clubs remaining to resist the inevitable change (basically only Norths and Newtown). They simply won't have enough pieces of a second tier comp to form a replacement of any great quality. Regardless, the organisation will of course continue to govern RL below the second tier, as will the QRL in Queensland. But in a reverse of history the QLD Cup would become the basis for a second national competition with control transferring to the ARL (exactly as the NSWRL's Winfield Cup became the basis for the first national competition and was transferred to the ARL and subsequently the NRL).

As an aside to this (and I know I'm going to get bagged for this one), I think there's a reasonable case for merging the NSWRL, QRL, CRL and ARL into a single governing body for RL outside of the NRL. Rather that having Groups answering to the CRL, divisions answering to the QRL, and districts answering to the NSWRL, all would answer directly to and be funded directly by one body - the ARL. Cut out the middle men and put more of the money back into the game and less into duplicating administration. Of course with the various fiefdoms and self interests, pigs will be flying first.

(Perth Flying Pigs?)

Leigh.

 

[Striker]

tbh i would have rather seen a national reserve grade competition setup, although that means roughy 34 traveling players from each team. then the state wide competitions below that. they could be split into two conferences, ie qld wa nt and eventually png and fiji in one conference nsw vic nz and eventually sa and tas the other conference.

in that case merged sides like wests tigers would be represented as themselves in the NRL and NRL Reserve and then as Wests and Balmain in the conference.

that way other state NRL sides could develop, as perth are looking to do, through the conferences. Re-instating the rams in adelaide and letting them evolve over a 10 year period. this way the NRL has a means of expansion by judging the follwing of sides in the 3rd teir setup.

 

[Quidgybo]

tbh i would have rather seen a national reserve grade competition setup, although that means roughy 34 traveling players from each team. then the state wide competitions below that. they could be split into two conferences, ie qld wa nt and eventually png and fiji in one conference nsw vic nz and eventually sa and tas the other conference.

Well as far as the national reserve grade is concerned, on a cost and player travel basis that's no different to what we're going to get with the U/20s - each club flying two teams worth of players across the country each week. But if the major argument against running a national comp below that is cost then running two competitions, one spanning QLD, WA, NT and the other NSW, VIC, NZ, is likely to be even more expensive. At least with a single national competition you've only got to support 12 second/third tier clubs intially and build from there. With two comps/conferences you're realistically looking at supporting 20 teams up front both financially and with players. But if you then also push it all down to the third tier below a national reserve grade, the economics of it have got to start looking bloody horrifying. It's hard enough running a geographically spread comp at the second tier let alone at the third tier - even further away from the fan, media and sponsorship limelight. At least the U/20s comp will still leave a decent pool of over age players with which to form at least one quality second tier comp.

Leigh

 

[Striker]

Well as far as the national reserve grade is concerned, on a cost and player travel basis that's no different to what we're going to get with the U/20s - each club flying two teams worth of players across the country each week. But if the major argument against running a national comp below that is cost then running two competitions, one spanning QLD, WA, NT and the other NSW, VIC, NZ, is likely to be even more expensive. At least with a single national competition you've only got to support 12 second/third tier clubs intially and build from there. With two comps/conferences you're realistically looking at supporting 20 teams up front both financially and with players. But if you then also push it all down to the third tier below a national reserve grade, the economics of it have got to start looking bloody horrifying. It's hard enough running a geographically spread comp at the second tier let alone at the third tier - even further away from the fan, media and sponsorship limelight. At least the U/20s comp will still leave a decent pool of over age players with which to form at least one quality second tier comp.

Leigh

I see your point!

but what i feel should happen first is a national reserve grade over a national youth league

 

[East Coast Tiger]

I really don't see why a national second tier is pie in the sky. Nor do I see the many reasons that will prevent it from happening (apart from cost). Depending on how you look look at it, the concept can be seen as just an expanded Queensland Cup anyway. There are already a couple of factors that are pointing in that direction. We know that the WARL and Auckland are going to field teams in a long distance second tier comp in 2007/2008. And we know that majority of the existing second tier teams in NSW (the NRL Premier League sides) and the NQ Young Guns in Queensland are likely to withdraw in 2008. Given the distances already involved in travelling to NSW it is perfectly feasbile for Auckland and the WARL enter into the Queensland Cup instead (one self funded and the other funded by the ARL). And given the massive hole that will be left after the scrapping of Premier League, I don't think it's a big leap of logic to conclude that the best of what's left from NSW will follow (ie. Norths, Newtown and maybe a couple of Jim Beam Cup clubs - funded by Leagues clubs and/or the NSWRL). At that point, whether it remains under the control of the QRL or is taken over by the ARL, you basically have a "National" Second Division. Perhaps there'll be a rationalisation of numbers (down to six teams) in Queensland to cover the loss of players to the NRL U/20s and to allow the QRL to direct additional funding to strategic areas like Cairns and Toowoomba, but essentially the comp would remain an evolution of the Queensland Cup.

Redcliffe
Cairns
Toowoomba
Burleigh
Brisbane 1 (eg. Easts, Norths, Wynnum Manly)
Brisbane 2
Newtown
North Sydney / Central Coast
Sydney 1 (Jim Beam Cup clubs)
Sydney 2
Auckland Lions
WARL

Leigh.

Toowoomba have folded because they couldn't afford to play in the Qld Cup. How are they going to compete in a national comp, especially if they are no longer backed by the Broncos? Cairns dropped out of the Qld Cup for the same reason and probably won't come back. Norths are only surviving due to the Storm's backing. The only Qld clubs that could possibly have the finances to play in a national comp would be Redcliffe, Easts, Wynnum, Burleigh and Tweed and I doubt all of them would even want to. I suspect many Jim Beam Cup clubs would be even less well off. Even if there was enough clubs to form a national second tier comp the money required would be better spent in other areas anyway.

 

[Quidgybo]

Toowoomba have folded because they couldn't afford to play in the Qld Cup. How are they going to compete in a national comp, especially if they are no longer backed by the Broncos? Cairns dropped out of the Qld Cup for the same reason and probably won't come back. Norths are only surviving due to the Storm's backing. The only Qld clubs that could possibly have the finances to play in a national comp would be Redcliffe, Easts, Wynnum, Burleigh and Tweed and I doubt all of them would even want to. I suspect many Jim Beam Cup clubs would be even less well off. Even if there was enough clubs to form a national second tier comp the money required would be better spent in other areas anyway.

I really don't see why a national second tier is pie in the sky. Nor do I see the many reasons that will prevent it from happening (apart from cost). Depending on how you look look at it, the concept can be seen as just an expanded Queensland Cup anyway. There are already a couple of factors that are pointing in that direction. We know that the WARL and Auckland are going to field teams in a long distance second tier comp in 2007/2008. And we know that majority of the existing second tier teams in NSW (the NRL Premier League sides) and the NQ Young Guns in Queensland are likely to withdraw in 2008. Given the distances already involved in travelling to NSW it is perfectly feasbile for Auckland and the WARL enter into the Queensland Cup instead (one self funded and the other funded by the ARL). And given the massive hole that will be left after the scrapping of Premier League, I don't think it's a big leap of logic to conclude that the best of what's left from NSW will follow (ie. Norths, Newtown and maybe a couple of Jim Beam Cup clubs - funded by Leagues clubs and/or the NSWRL). At that point, whether it remains under the control of the QRL or is taken over by the ARL, you basically have a "National" Second Division. Perhaps there'll be a rationalisation of numbers (down to six teams) in Queensland to cover the loss of players to the NRL U/20s and to allow the QRL to direct additional funding to strategic areas like Cairns and Toowoomba, but essentially the comp would remain an evolution of the Queensland Cup.

I've already covered most of those points in the original post. As well that there is the fact that the ARL would take over the expense of actually running the comp. This would free the QRL and NSWRL from the duplicated costs of running their own separate comps and allow them to feed that money back into making teams like Toowoomba viable. And that's before we even mention the fact that, with the new TV contract starting next year (almost doubling in value), there'll be more money than ever flowing into all levels of the game. From next year we are no longer a poor game living hand to mouth, we can afford to be daring again. What isn't viable in a state bound QRL run comp in 2006 is a poor guide IMHO to what would be viable in a rationalised ARL run competition in 2008. All the ground rules are about to change - and not solely because of the U/20s comp.

Leigh.

 

[Big-Steve]

A few points –

As I understand the general idea is to give us Super League by stealth. It is hoped that the current NRL structure can be imposed on the lower tiers of RL. There are a number of problems with this.

The lower grades especially in Sydney never went through the upheaval and forced consolidation that the NRL did and so a different structure has emerged to facilitate proper coverage of juniors in Sydney a structure that the NRL has not been concerned with – till now.

It’s a bit like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. But it will save NRL clubs money and Steve Noyce will not get headaches having to deal with 2 Premier League Clubs (the poor diddums!).

It’s somewhat of a misnomer that clubs like Norths or Wests are stand alone clubs. North Sydney currently run 4 teams (more than St George DRLFC do). Even Newtown up until next year was running 2 teams. And so the idea that a team like Norths or Wests or Balmain can be accommodated by moving them aside to a separate open age comp is unrealistic without some major upheaval in the junior structure.

Quite franking I am astounded that the NSWRL have rolled over and agreed with this! Leaving Norths, Newtown, Balmain, Wests even St George and the Steelers to an extent floundering on dry land to face the heartless (and powerful) NRL clubs alone.

Don’t get me wrong a national youth comp sounds fine but the current structures have been in place for 100 years and the restructuring to do it properly will take massive changes.

A major complaint coming from these clubs is the lack of consultation. Similar to the radio rights decision the NRL are claiming “extortive consultation”.

This is not the reality with the NSWRL clubs meeting only a week ago with NO MENTION OF THE 18s and 16s comps changing and a few days later the ARL is “confirming” changes to these comps. Kids who are playing and representing these clubs and their parents are confused and concerned.

Did I say a few points?

 

[griff]

Well as far as the national reserve grade is concerned, on a cost and player travel basis that's no different to what we're going to get with the U/20s - each club flying two teams worth of players across the country each week. But if the major argument against running a national comp below that is cost then running two competitions, one spanning QLD, WA, NT and the other NSW, VIC, NZ, is likely to be even more expensive. At least with a single national competition you've only got to support 12 second/third tier clubs intially and build from there. With two comps/conferences you're realistically looking at supporting 20 teams up front both financially and with players. But if you then also push it all down to the third tier below a national reserve grade, the economics of it have got to start looking bloody horrifying. It's hard enough running a geographically spread comp at the second tier let alone at the third tier - even further away from the fan, media and sponsorship limelight. At least the U/20s comp will still leave a decent pool of over age players with which to form at least one quality second tier comp.

Leigh

With a national 2nd tier competition you are travelling much further and much more often.

With two regional conferences almost all of the games would be within easy bus travel distance. A national competition and suddenly it is flying most weeks, with overnight stays etc.

Teams that miss out on a national second tier will still want to continue playing at a decent level within that state, so in effect you would have 3 competitions to support rather than 2.

At the bottom tier of professional soccer in England they have Conference North and Conference South to reduce travel costs, same with the Bundesliga. Travel costs here are much greater, so we really need to have regional comps.

As I say the key thing though is to organise a coherent system for RL at all levels, like they have in US baseball or English soccer. This requires all the organisations and comps to work together. I think this could really revitalise country RL if done properly.

 

[innsaneink]

Geoff Carr was on 2KY this morning, just throwing up more ?'s than previously really.

He said though the JBC will not be touched, and wont be involved with the current PL comp in any way.

Greg Hayes:
What competition can be set up so players who cant play first grade NRL or are coming back from injury, where can they play to stay fit and play football at agood level?

Geoff Carr:
"Our challenge is an open competition that will involve NRL players, and at the moment, just talking to the clubs, there seems to be a demand against a number of clubs for a format, so we'll be investigating that next year...there'll be some clubs that have indicated they dont want to compete, there'll be other clubs that may joint venture with other football clubs similar to Newtown & the Roosters and there'll be some clubs that will participate in their own right - so we're going to assess that demand early next year."

GH:
"And it gives I guess some clubs a chance to survive, like North Sydney"

GC:
"It does, and we're encouraging that, and although Nth Sydney wont be in the U 20s because that will mirror the NRL comp, Norths will be encouraged to participate in the national 16's & 18's, and indications are so far that the Wests, the Balmains and the North Sydneys and those traditional clubs will be interested in that."

GH:
OK, so we can expect a decision what, early 2007...whats going to happen with the players that obviously arent good enough to play in the NRL, whats going to happen with these players?

GC:
Obviously for the clubs planning and for the planning of the league, we cant delay the decision forever. We have to have planning in place so everyone knows where they sit, but certainly the QLD Cup will provide that avenue in QLD, and thats a very very creditaable competition ...aaah we just have to come up with something similar in NSW, aaah but we need to assess at the moment for that.

Thats about it...his words.
Also some clubs were in favour of several open age players in the 20's comp, but the majority preferred straight out U20s

 

[Brutus]

The yet unamed open age comp involving Newtwon, Norths ect must be televised on the ABC. They must give this comp profile.

 

[nqboy]

GH:
"And it gives I guess some clubs a chance to survive, like North Sydney"

GC:
"It does, and we're encouraging that, and although Nth Sydney wont be in the U 20s because that will mirror the NRL comp, Norths will be encouraged to participate in the national 16's & 18's, and indications are so far that the Wests, the Balmains and the North Sydneys and those traditional clubs will be interested in that."

Who's going to pay for the travel and overnight stays in those comps?

GH:
OK, so we can expect a decision what, early 2007...whats going to happen with the players that obviously arent good enough to play in the NRL, whats going to happen with these players?

GC:
Obviously for the clubs planning and for the planning of the league, we cant delay the decision forever. We have to have planning in place so everyone knows where they sit, but certainly the QLD Cup will provide that avenue in QLD, and thats a very very creditaable competition ...aaah we just have to come up with something similar in NSW, aaah but we need to assess at the moment for that.

Sounds like what a few have been fearing. They have it all planned at NRL and U20s level and they have no clue below that. Even in Qld, which is covered according to Carr, he fails to address, or even consider the effect of having the top 300 (15 clubs by 20 players per club conservatively) U20s removed from that system. Instead, he glosses over it with a "She'll be right, mate" attitude. And he has no plan at all for NSW apparently.

 

[griff]

the QLD Cup will provide that avenue in QLD, and thats a very very creditaable competition ...aaah we just have to come up with something similar in NSW, aaah but we need to assess at the moment for that.

Pretty good signs really, although I'm not clear what format he is suggesting for the 16s and 18s for Norths to be involved and it is odd suggesting the JB Cup will not be touched.

 

[Quidgybo]

With a national 2nd tier competition you are travelling much further and much more often.

With two regional conferences almost all of the games would be within easy bus travel distance. A national competition and suddenly it is flying most weeks, with overnight stays etc.

As far as the two conference example I was responding to (NZ, NSW, VIC and QLD, WA, NT), that just isn't true. Any teams from northern and central Queensland (eg. Cairns, Mackay, Rockhampton), New Zealand, WA, NT and Victoria would almost certainly be flying every second week. The fact is any conference based on a state the size of Queensland or an equivalent geographical spread over multiple states is going to have substantial amounts of air travel and accomodation. The primary differentiating factor between that sort of conference configuration and a national second tier, isn't the travel, it's the number of teams. 20 teams spread over two conferences the size of Queensland or larger is going to generate as much, if not more travel and accomodation expenses than a single 12 team national comp. That said, in my example National second tier with five teams in SE QLD and four teams in the Sydney area there is still a substantial number of local contests that would not require extended traval.

Teams that miss out on a national second tier will still want to continue playing at a decent level within that state, so in effect you would have 3 competitions to support rather than 2.

Why three? Any teams that don't make the national second tier either drop back to an *existing* local league (eg. BRL, Jim Beam Cup) or are disbanded in favour of bringing their players back into an *existing* local league (eg. Central Comets). I don't see why you need another tier between the national second tier and the local leagues any more than you need another tier between the Queensland Cup and the Brisbane Rugby League currently. And when we talk about teams that miss out, in practical terms who are we talking about? In NSW, if the NRL clubs pull out of the Premier League then there'll be only two second tier clubs left (Norths and Newtown), both almost certain starters in the new second tier. There isn't anybody else to be missed out. In Queensland we'd mainly be talking some of the Brisbane clubs dropping back to the Brisbane A Grade (as some already have). Again I don't see where we need an additional competition.

Leigh.