Ultrathread I: Thread of the Year - 2014

[soc123_au]

You could easily throw alcohol and even other vices like gambling into that mix.

You could easily make a case that these 2 cause vastly more problems to society than heroin. I have felt the effects of gambling addiction. The damage it can do is horrendous. My dad had a huge problem when I was a kid. It amazes me that my mum managed to shield myself & my sister from it for a god deal of it. I didnt even know until I was about 17. Once I knew, a lot of things I had been confused about made sense. To the old mans credit he has been on the wagon for 25 years & still goes to meetings every week. He has also done everything in his power to try and make good on things he had done & I love him for it. Mum also has my absolute respect for the sacrifices she made to make sure us kids didnt miss out.

As an adult I have also dealt with a close family member with the same problem. The amount of money involved was staggering. Most of it gained through theft, lies & deceit. No different from a junkie.

I still havent seen anyone calling for the death penalty for poker machine owners. Most of them sell beer as well & that starts a whole new adventure in addiction.

 

[Misanthrope]

Poker machines are utterly disgusting inventions.

Want to have a flutter on your favourite sport? I can almost abide that. I've done it a time or ten myself.

Mindlessly feed money into a machine whose flashing lights, jingly music, and design are built solely to take maximum money for minimum cost? It's just f**ked.

 

[whall15]

Ellen DeGeneres is a known menace to society.

http://www.igt.com/company-information/news-room/news-releases.aspx?NewsID=1970264

 

[Misanthrope]

Money talks.

 

[Eelementary]

I don't believe the death penalty does anything to deter crime, and if we are disgusted by criminals committing crimes (particularly those involving violence), then I think it's immensely hypocritical of the state to murder someone in retribution.

Society is appalled by murderers and other violent offenders because their crimes go against everything we stand for as a society. Nobody has the right to take a life, so why is it ok to do so in vengeance under the banner of punishment and/or the thin guise of being a deterrent?

But does the fact someone is a killer/rapist/paedophile/arsonist/drug dealer make it ok to murder them in retaliation for their offences?

Personally, I say no. You kill a criminal, you're no better than the animal you've locked up IMO.

 

[Misanthrope]

Considerably better off financially though ;-)

 

[soc123_au]

Poker machines are utterly disgusting inventions.

Want to have a flutter on your favourite sport? I can almost abide that. I've done it a time or ten myself.

Mindlessly feed money into a machine whose flashing lights, jingly music, and design are built solely to take maximum money for minimum cost? It's just f**ked.

Dads thing was pokies. He reckons the worst thing that ever happened was he had a pretty big win the first time he ever played one. He says that that started the cycle of chasing the win again. He also says that for a good portion of the time he was gambling he would walk into the club with however much in his wallet & he knew he would leave with nothing. He would win a jackpot & stay there until he had put it all back in. It wasnt about the money while he was pulling the handle. It was the euphoria of winning. The money didnt rate a thought until he was on his way home to face the old girl. Once he started going to GA & getting the right type of help he could break the cycle. Even though he hasnt gambled for 25 years, he still considers himself an addict.

 

[whall15]

Considerably better off financially though ;-)

The state is? That would be a no.

Taxpayers have spent more than $4 billion on capital punishment in California since it was reinstated in 1978, or about $308 million for each of the 13 executions carried out since then, according to a comprehensive analysis of the death penalty's costs.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/20/local/la-me-adv-death-penalty-costs-20110620

 

[Misanthrope]

Dads thing was pokies. He reckons the worst thing that ever happened was he had a pretty big win the first time he ever played one. He says that that started the cycle of chasing the win again. He also says that for a good portion of the time he was gambling he would walk into the club with however much in his wallet & he knew he would leave with nothing. He would win a jackpot & stay there until he had put it all back in. It wasnt about the money while he was pulling the handle. It was the euphoria of winning. The money didnt rate a thought until he was on his way home to face the old girl. Once he started going to GA & getting the right type of help he could break the cycle. Even though he hasnt gambled for 25 years, he still considers himself an addict.

So many sad stories like that. Good on your Dad for seeking help and getting things under control. I guess gambling addiction is akin to alcohol addiction in that there are no reformed addicts. You're just one drink, pill, or press away from being right back where you started.

The state is? That would be a no.

I guess that all depends on the standards you keep them in and the method of execution. I doubt China is spending quite so much on their executions.

Not that I'm advocating going down the Chinese route in any regard. That place is a f**king mess.

 

[soc123_au]

I don't believe the death penalty does anything to deter crime, and if we are disgusted by criminals committing crimes (particularly those involving violence), then I think it's immensely hypocritical of the state to murder someone in retribution.

Society is appalled by murderers and other violent offenders because their crimes go against everything we stand for as a society. Nobody has the right to take a life, so why is it ok to do so in vengeance under the banner of punishment and/or the thin guise of being a deterrent?

But does the fact someone is a killer/rapist/paedophile/arsonist/drug dealer make it ok to murder them in retaliation for their offences?

Personally, I say no. You kill a criminal, you're no better than the animal you've locked up IMO.

It stops them reoffending. It should be reserved for the lowest of the low.

 

[soc123_au]

So many sad stories like that. Good on your Dad for seeking help and getting things under control. I guess gambling addiction is akin to alcohol addiction in that there are no reformed addicts. You're just one drink, pill, or press away from being right back where you started.

Funny story that stems from it. When I was in primary school I went to the school fete. They had those lucky envelope things for sale for 10 cents. I bought one & won $25.00. I was pretty stoked as that was a shitload in 1981 & jumped the fence to get back home & tell mum. She freaked out and was crying and shit, and told me how bad gambling is etc. Dad was backing her up but more out of obligation than anything else. At the time obviously I had no idea of dads issues. Mum took $20.00 off me to deposit in my savings account & sent me & by best mate who was with me back to the fete.

About half an hour later we wandered past the luck envelope bucket again. It was this big arse garbage bin & would have had 10000 envelopes in it at least. There was a sign saying that there were 4 envelopes that had the $25.00 major prize. I figured I would dump another 10 cents in the hope of winning $2.00 that we could blow at the fete. Wouldnt you know it $25-00. I shit myself. I begged my mate to take it & say he won it. He freaked & told me to f**k off, no way he was going to cop the same as I did off his mum. In the end I think we blew $4.00 on lollies & coke & tossed the rest down the drain. :lol:

 

[Eelementary]

It stops them reoffending. It should be reserved for the lowest of the low.

Second chances? Rehabilitation?

How can we take the moral high road when we are content to do to them what they have done to others?

Obviously, rape/murder/paedophilia/arson are not offences like driving under the influence or illegal parking, but if certain tenets in religion (and therefore, society) push forgiveness after repent for offending, then killing offenders, while perhaps satisfying, proves us to be hypocritical. And while everyone is a hypocrite to an extent, we need our legal system to be the apex that represents the good side of us IMO.

 

[umina panther]

Im happy to kill the pedophiles that repeatedly rape kids if you aren't up for it

 

[soc123_au]

Second chances? Rehabilitation?

How can we take the moral high road when we are content to do to them what they have done to others?

Obviously, rape/murder/paedophilia/arson are not offences like driving under the influence or illegal parking, but if certain tenets in religion (and therefore, society) push forgiveness after repent for offending, then killing offenders, while perhaps satisfying, proves us to be hypocritical. And while everyone is a hypocrite to an extent, we need our legal system to be the apex that represents the good side of us IMO.

In my opinion in the case of kiddie fiddlers, violent rapists & thrill killers the risk is too great. If 100 guilty ones die to save one innocent from being the next victim of one them then its a small price to pay. Some of them are just unable to be rehabilitated.

 

[Eelementary]

In my opinion in the case of kiddie fiddlers, violent rapists & thrill killers the risk is too great. If 100 guilty ones die to save one innocent from being the next victim of one them then its a small price to pay. Some of them are just able to be rehabilitated.

I agree that not everyone can be rehabilitated - and that's where the courts and penitentiary systems need a major overhaul.

I just don't think it's right for States and Johnny Law to tell people, "You can't kill," and then they turn around and kill people themselves.

I can see why people think violent offenders should be killed, but personally, I think the law (the entire system, from top to bottom) needs to set the example for society to follow.

 

[umina panther]

Agree about setting an example. Touch a child = death. Hurting a kid like that is far far worse than murder, I don't understand why it isn't life in prison without parole right now.

 

[Eelementary]

Agree about setting an example. Touch a child = death. Hurting a kid like that is far far worse than murder, I don't understand why it isn't life in prison without parole right now.

It's a complex issue.

Essentially, criminals behave the way they do because of psychology and upbringing. While they don't excuse their behaviour, it goes a long way to explaining why they do what they do, and it essentially gives authorities greater hope of curing these offenders - because, as good, decent people are wont to do, we like to give people a second chance.

Repeat offenders are the exception, obviously.

But going back to the psychological aspect - is it morally right for a person to be put to death or imprisoned for life sans the possibility of parole simply because they were abused as a child? Surely the mental scars are not their fault (and it doesn't excuse their behaviour), and if there is a possibility to fix them and turn them into a productive member of society, then certainly that is a more preferable outcome than simply writing someone off for good?

I realise it's a complicated and controversial topic, but I enjoy the debate in good nature.

I don't think any less of people who support the death penalty, because I understand their emotions and rationale for wanting it, but I can't agree to it - no matter how tempted I might be to see it instated for violent criminals.

 

[umina panther]

They can't be rehabilitated its just the way they are, just like I'm attracted to women or a gay dude likes guys. I'm not saying torture them but they have no place and should just be put down.

 

[Eelementary]

They can't be rehabilitated its just the way they are, just like I'm attracted to women or a gay dude likes guys. I'm not saying torture them but they have no place and should just be put down.

That isn't always the case.

 

[umina panther]

Trying to change them is just as insane as the American religious nutters with the "Pray the gay away" nonsense