usarl - amnrl split

[rugger1213]

100% spot on....

american born players playing footy in america CAN NOT qualify for their OWN national team whilst playing in the usarl.

however, an overseas foreign player with some type of lineage to the usa but has never played a game or stepped foot in this country can qualify for the "national team"

an utter disgrace

The union team (the Eagles) did and do similar things with their players. They have capped players who are only "American" by lineage and some haven't played any rugby in the US except for test matches and camps.

As someone else said, a high level of competition will shed light on RL in the US, if a few "ringers" make the Tomahawks more competitive in the World Cup and thus brings positive attention to true US born players to come out for RL, is it really the worst thing in the world?

The best recruiting pools are going to be ex-collegiate athletes and current union players who have higher aspirations than just winning their LAU tournaments. I bet I could hand select top non-Eagle pool union players and make 10 different teams that could put 40 pts on any team in either the USARL and AMNRL.

I think the success of RL in this country will require cooperation not just internally, but with rugby union as well.

 

[Evil Homer]

The union team (the Eagles) did and do similar things with their players. They have capped players who are only "American" by lineage and some haven't played any rugby in the US except for test matches and camps.

Pretty sure they haven't banned genuine American domestic players from playing though, despite it being a typically Union thing to do.

 

[East Coast Tiger]

The union team (the Eagles) did and do similar things with their players. They have capped players who are only "American" by lineage and some haven't played any rugby in the US except for test matches and camps.

As someone else said, a high level of competition will shed light on RL in the US, if a few "ringers" make the Tomahawks more competitive in the World Cup and thus brings positive attention to true US born players to come out for RL, is it really the worst thing in the world?

The best recruiting pools are going to be ex-collegiate athletes and current union players who have higher aspirations than just winning their LAU tournaments. I bet I could hand select top non-Eagle pool union players and make 10 different teams that could put 40 pts on any team in either the USARL and AMNRL.

I think the success of RL in this country will require cooperation not just internally, but with rugby union as well.

As said, the union mob don't ban more than half the blokes actually playing their sport within the country from playing for the national team. Plus, if it's not such a bad thing to bulk up the Tomahawks with overseas players - and I don't think anyone is arguing against that - then surely it's not the worst thing in the world to select players from the USARL either. In fact it would be cheaper and easier. The AMNRL has ruined its credibility on this issue I'm afraid. It could have opposed the USARL and claimed it was in the right prior to this and it would be hard to claim otherwise from the outside looking in. But now they've guaranteed the casual observer will be against them.

 

[YANTO]

Well, while I disagree completely with Yanto, he has been brow beat quite enough for today for trying to bring in SOME/ANY rationale to the actions of the AMNRL. C'mon fellas, Yanto really did do the best to try to rationalize completely irrational behavior.

Cheers mate (I think)

Two sides to every story and I was trying to look at it from an "Open perspective"...but off course people seem to have decided which side of the fence they sit on.

What IF USA qualify for the WC with a team selected from the AMNRL only .....will Niu then be credited with standing up to the what he believed was right,with the support of a few clubs who believe at this moment they are right in what they doing??

Which side is right in Libya right now,the governing body or the rebels??

 

[Evil Homer]

What IF USA qualify for the WC with a team selected from the AMNRL only .....will Niu then be credited with standing up to the what he believed was right,with the support of a few clubs who believe at this moment they are right in what they doing??

No. Your posts seem to convey the attitude that international matches and results are the be-all and end-all of a nation's development and the only thing that really matters. Of course this is not the case at all.

 

[YANTO]

No. Your posts seem to convey the attitude that international matches and results are the be-all and end-all of a nation's development and the only thing that really matters. Of course this is not the case at all.

So why all the post regarding the split has weakened the chances of the USA qualifying??

A lot of guys on here seem to make that the strongest argument against the AMNRL.

As I said in a previous post if the split had not happened in a WC qualifying year would it may not have caused so much up rage and people may have seen it as a good thing.

Your now saying this is not the case ......but 75% of the threads are commenting on the damage it has caused to the USA world cup chances !!

 

[mother rucker]

No. Your posts seem to convey the attitude that international matches and results are the be-all and end-all of a nation's development and the only thing that really matters. Of course this is not the case at all.

Agreed. The ends do NOT justify the means... It is the whole "win the battle, lose the war" concept. Sure, winning is great, but it is an inherently temporary, short-lived result. If you trample on the rights of athletes to compete in the process, the long term result will be the decline of the sport as a whole and the ultimate war is lost. As already cited, the AMNRL has already lost credibility and fans due to this scenario... winning won't make their actions right.

If anyone is interested, in the United States, amateur athletes have a right to compete under the Ted Stevens Act and the USOC. (usacoaching.org/resources/Amateur%20Sports%20Act.pdf (See section 220524 for a start)). If the AMNRL were a recognized governing body in the US, which they are not, they absolutely could not be excluding players based on this completely irrational basis of hurt feelings.

Also, according to wearerugby Nui will be stepping down as head coach of the Tomahawks after the Ireland match and turning over the position to another Aussie who successfully coached the Tomahawks to its last WC LOSS in 2008. It appears the exclusive Ass. Coaches jobs will consist of the Knights (AMNRL) head coach, the Bulls (AMNRL) head coach, the guy putting together rugby league in Hawaii, and an ex-US captain. Any thoughts on Nui stepping down? Is this fairly expected?

 

[Billythekid]

Cheers mate (I think)

Two sides to every story and I was trying to look at it from an "Open perspective"...but off course people seem to have decided which side of the fence they sit on.

What IF USA qualify for the WC with a team selected from the AMNRL only .....will Niu then be credited with standing up to the what he believed was right,with the support of a few clubs who believe at this moment they are right in what they doing??

No? Why would that change anything?

 

[DaBears]

I personally think it makes total sense to exclude USARL players.
Both leagues (while in existence) like it or not are now competing against each other for players, sponsors, fans etc etc going forward. Both leagues will be doing their best to be better than the other and use anything at their disposal to beat the other and it seems to me that the AMNRL have a very big draw (maybe their best) for someone who wants to represent their country...why would any smart businessman give it away.

 

[rugger1213]

Pretty sure they haven't banned genuine American domestic players from playing though, despite it being a typically Union thing to do.

From what I can tell there is no ban. The players who don't meet the criteria currently have the choice who they do or dont play for. Eligibility requirements are far from a "ban". I read the eligibility requirements posted on wearerugby.com

BTW I play Union and I've never seen a player banned for anything except for foul play. Players who are not allowed to play are usual victims to eligibility issues with regards to their residency status.

 

[Evil Homer]

From what I can tell there is no ban. The players who don't meet the criteria currently have the choice who they do or dont play for. Eligibility requirements are far from a "ban". I read the eligibility requirements posted on wearerugby.com

Come on, that's almost Niu-like in it's ambiguity and stupidity.

 

[mother rucker]

From what I can tell there is no ban. The players who don't meet the criteria currently have the choice who they do or dont play for. Eligibility requirements are far from a "ban". I read the eligibility requirements posted on wearerugby.com.

I don't think you quite understand. What exactly would you suggest for players who live outside of the Northeast or Chicago? There are ZERO (count them, ZERO) AMNRL teams outside of the Northeast/Chicago. What would you suggest to those players around Virginia/DC/Maryland and GA/Florida where there are USARL teams? Tell them to NOT play rugby to be able to play rugby?? Seems slightly counter intuitive to have players get ready to represent their country by NOT playing rugby. Or would you suggest them move instead of playing for a team in their area?

Sorry Rugger, there is a ban. There is a BAN against USARL players playing for the Tomahawks. That is ban. Just because a couple of cities have two teams doesn't mean there isn't a ban.

 

[mother rucker]

I personally think it makes total sense to exclude USARL players.
Both leagues (while in existence) like it or not are now competing against each other for players, sponsors, fans etc etc going forward. Both leagues will be doing their best to be better than the other and use anything at their disposal to beat the other and it seems to me that the AMNRL have a very big draw (maybe their best) for someone who wants to represent their country...why would any smart businessman give it away.

Wait, I am so confused. How will the AMNRL be better by the head of the league keeping players from representing their country? Are you just talking about the two cities with both USARL and AMNRL teams? Because I am not seeing how directly excluding over HALF of the Tomahawks selected for the Atlantic Cup will better the AMNRL in any way. The only people I can see being happy about this are those guys who play for a AMNRL team and who now have a shot to be selected because the talent pool has been drained.

 

[rugger1213]

Come on, that's almost Niu-like in it's ambiguity and stupidity.

It's really not ambiguous at all actually. The eligibility requirements are spelled out pretty clearly. A ban would mean they have no recourse in the matter and the fact is they do.

As for players in cities with no AMNRL, sounds like they have reason to convince their club management to join the sanctioned league or they are the "at large" type of players mentioned in the requirements.

 

[rugger1213]

Sorry Rugger, there is a ban. There is a BAN against USARL players playing for the Tomahawks. That is ban. Just because a couple of cities have two teams doesn't mean there isn't a ban.

No ban, there are requirements, that doesn't constitute a ban.

I am not in favor of 2 leagues, 2 or 3 divisions sure, but not leagues. I think based on the situation clearly there are deficiencies on BOTH sides, but there are inconsistencies here across the board.

I have a hard time believing that a situation like this unfolds because of a single individual's actions, I'm not saying Niu is absolved of blame, but a lot of people seem to think it's a very cut and dry situation and if you tried to look at it objectively there's clearly more going on and I think we should as a rugby community try to get a better understanding before we pass judgement on either side.

 

[skrabsta]

we are rugby says Matt Elliott is a leading coach in world rugby league , what a joke. He will have as much success with this watered down tomahawks side as he did last time.

 

[RhinoCats]

rugger1213 = AMNRL player/coach/admin
Mother Rucker = USARL player/coach/admin
Both will argue their side of the story till blue in the face. This will play out similar to the pending NFL lockout, AMNRL will play the Ireland game solo, probably lose, the USARL players will be welcomed back closer to the Atlantic Cup of WCQ games. Niu knows that his success depends on the USA national teams success and the exposure that comes with a spot in the WC. Just like the greedy NFL owners he will cave, I hope he reads these forums too, I bet he does Hi Dave, lose the ego and grow the game you are suppose to love.

 

[roopy]

Logic says this will be all over at some stage, and people should realize that everyone will have to work together again when that happens.

 

[adamkungl]

No ban, there are requirements, that doesn't constitute a ban.

Not allowed to associate or play with any other Rugby Leagues = ban.

 

[deal.with.it]

Hypothetically;
Lets say the USARL develops strongly. Within two years or so, all teams in the top league also field a reserve grade and an under 18's team. So thats three teams for every club. Then say, the USARL manages to gain television coverage (say one game a week). What does David Niu do? Does he keep trying to get tv coverage for the AMNRL? Would AMNRL teams join the USARL? Would AMNRL players join USARL teams?

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Regardless of which side you support, the information we all know (even you Niu supporters) is that the USARL will be a stronger competition. The league will be more professional. But the AMNRL will still have some strong teams involved, and they will also have rights to the tomahawks. That's the facts.

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Also if anyone follows twitter, there has been some more tweets by Vassy.
Firstly saying that some clubs in the USARL are asking players to pay $350 to play.
Secondly, something about some teams in the USARL having different names but being the same team. He made the comparison to himself playing for the Bulls and then playing in the exact some team and calling it Delaware.
So im guessing he is referring to the Boston teams. You would hope that boston players won't be playing for Oneida aswell and vice versa. Hopefully someone knows some more on that one.