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Vettori quits as Test captain

Fast Eddie

First Grade
Messages
8,085
Don't get to see a lot of domestic NZ cricket, but what do those who do think of Kitchen as a potential test batsman? Around 26-27 so he's just coming towards his peak, averages 43 or so in first class, but what's most impressive to me is his record of two 50's and five 100's. Seems to go on once he's gotten himself in. The only problem being that he's more of a middle order batsman, but possibly a more mature option at 3 than Williamson?

What about the young keepers? I see Young as a temp more than a long term solution. Guys like De Boorder (sp?) and Austin-Smellie seem to be developing handy looking records.

I could live with Vettori being our all rounder, but not a pure spinner who can bat.

1. McCullum
2. Guptil
3. Kitchen
4. Taylor (c)
5. Ryder
6. Vettori
7. De Boorder/Austin-Smellie
8. Astle
9. Wagner
10. Southee
11. Boult

Keeping in mind my limited exposure to NZ domestic cricket other than what I read/see on youtube, is that team likely to be any more competitive than what we're currently dishing out?

I rate Williamson, but think he needs further development, especially at first class level. Franklin has been handy in one day games recently, but as a test batsman his shortcomings have been badly exposed.

Broom has etched out a nice first class record, but never seems to take that extra step up.

:lol::lol: No offence mate but are you serious? You reckon Williamson needs more development in FC Cricket but want to chuck Kitchen, De Boorder and Boult in there? And Todd Astle???? None of those players would be any improvement on what was in the team, except for maybe Trent Boult over Arnel which doesn't necessarily say much.
 

KeepingTheFaith

Referee
Messages
25,235
:lol::lol: No offence mate but are you serious? You reckon Williamson needs more development in FC Cricket but want to chuck Kitchen, De Boorder and Boult in there? And Todd Astle???? None of those players would be any improvement on what was in the team, except for maybe Trent Boult over Arnel which doesn't necessarily say much.

Informative, feel free to explain who should be in the team and why they should be there.

I did say on one or more occasion that I had limited chance at looking at domestic NZ cricket and mainly go off what I read. Hence the reason I asked rather than stating it as fact or opinion.

Williamson is too young, simple as that. It may not be a question of development as much as it is a question of maturity. Kitchen has a favourable record compared to most possible replacements which is why I asked about him.

Astle is currently having quite a good season in Fc cricket and despite his overall average of 33 compared to NZ's other spinners he appears to get more results, and on top of that can hold a bat and is only 24.

Young is a stop gap solution, Hopkins plain sucks, McCullum won't keep. Who else is there. Smellie looks likely but shouldn't be rushed, and out of all the keepers De Boorder has the best record.

I have no doubt there are people with stronger knowledge of NZ cricket than me, but it would be nice to hear some proper reasoning/replies.
 

African Monkey

First Grade
Messages
8,671
Williamson should still be at 6. The only other option is whether we open with Guptill and put Franlin at 3 or whether Guptill goes to first drop with McIntosh opening the batting. I'm probably the only one on here who has time for McIntosh, but he is a good player once he's survived the first 40 balls of his innings and is still the best out and out opener in the country imo.
 

Fast Eddie

First Grade
Messages
8,085
Uhhh how about this for a reason like I already stated, none of those players are a)better then who is already in there or b) good enough for international cricket full stop. Pretty simple really.
 

Iafeta

Referee
Messages
24,357
an initiative from NZ Cricket id like to see... ask Ross to pull out of the IPL... have about 3 or 4 NZ winters playing county cricket instead... NZ Cricket can pay the difference between his county deal and his IPL contract...

i reckon he would benefit greatly by having a couple of years on the county scene... learning how to become a REAL pro.

How much can Taylor earn playing county cricket? $200,000? So, you think NZC, which I would imagine looking at its sparse crowds, would be doing well to post minimal losses could lump up with an extra $800,000??? I like the idea, and I agree with the concept, however I don't think it's financially plausible.

Uhhh how about this for a reason like I already stated, none of those players are a)better then who is already in there or b) good enough for international cricket full stop. Pretty simple really.

Pretty much. And that's the real problem, isn't it? Having 6 first class teams (remember, Australia which has five times our population also works off a 6 team concept) completely waters down the second tier strength because fringe players play against mediocre players who in most cricket nations would be nowhere near first class cricket. It's annoying watching 120k/h fat trundlers roll their arm over and do ok, and then to see the likes of Tim McIntosh forge a goodish first class record only to find out when he hits the top level that he has absolutely no stability in his defence and can barely play a ball off the back foot.

You are right, there simply is not the talent to put any pressure on McCullum, Vettori, Ryder, Taylor, probably even Guptill, possibly even Martin. McCullum, Ryder and Taylor are guys who could be extremely good international talents. But they're never pushed to hold their spots.

I'd like to do away with the current first class system... I'd go back to a conference system. Auckland/ND (Northern), CD/Wellington (Central), Otago/Canterbury (Southern). To make a season, invite an A team or have an NZ U22 team as the fourth unit based out of an academy city. CD/ND were brought in in the 50s because transportation was cumbersome still and it meant that provincial players couldn't commute to the bigger centres, plus, they weren't professional so it meant a lot of players were being missed out on. Nowadays with modern technology, strategically that is no longer the case. On top of that, the first class systems are massive costs to the NZC bottom line, so effectively removing one meaningless average game per round of competition would reduce a lot of overheads and help produce far tougher first class conditions to test players out on, which should remove the roly poly average first class cricketer that gives the freebie meat pies for average talent to dine out on.
 

shiznit

Coach
Messages
14,781
How much can Taylor earn playing county cricket? $200,000? So, you think NZC, which I would imagine looking at its sparse crowds, would be doing well to post minimal losses could lump up with an extra $800,000??? I like the idea, and I agree with the concept, however I don't think it's financially plausible.

yeah your definitely right.... we just dont have the money to do it...

but i would like to see NZ Cricket make an investment in our Test cricket.

my main idea would be some sort of scheme where players who decide that they do not want to play T20 in order to further there test career's are subsidized by NZC for the money they miss out on in the IPL.

maybe even make the subsidies higher depending on how young you are... to encourage and reward our young talent to stick with the longer forms of the game... so they can get a better foundation to there game.

i know it cost money... and NZ Cricket certainly aren't rich... but perhaps they need to start thinking of it as an investment... rather than another expense. maybe some sort of public/private sector sponsorship where a company and SPARC get involved... because for mine it comes under high performance.
 
Messages
14,937
The best way to sum up Vettori, much like a lot of the New Zealanders, decent bat, decent bowler, but not a match winner. Crikey, even Matt Hart spun NZ to a test win in South Africa once :shock:

He would walk into our Test Team,prob even be Captain
 

JJ

Immortal
Messages
31,978
Vettori pretty much a failure as captain tbh

Seems like it will be Taylor, although the rationale is not obvious. I'd much prefer McCullum, competetive bastard!
 

Benjitheking

Juniors
Messages
58
Not harsh at all. Over the past few years there have been a number of pretty 30s-70s, but not enough grinding it out and converting into a match winning 100+. Ryder, Taylor, McCullum, Guptill.. a lot of blokes who regularly get starts but none of them go the whole hog often enough. His second innings was at a strike rate of 51. That's certainly not a good clip in modern test cricket. A good clip is 60+.

@Bolded
While the rest of our middle/lower order collapsed that innings got us to a situation where we could only win/draw but your worried about his strike rate? :roll:
 

Fast Eddie

First Grade
Messages
8,085
Compared to some other efforts int hat innings it was at a good clip especially with wickets falling around him.

Vettori pretty much a failure as captain tbh

The worst thing about Vettoris captaincy reign was that it cut Flemings career short by a year or two when he was still our best Test bat and a great captain.
 

Benjitheking

Juniors
Messages
58
1. Brendon McCullum*
2. Martin Guptill
3. Kane Williamson
4. Ross Taylor
5. Jesse Ryder
6. Daniel Vettori
7. Reece Young (vc)
8. Todd Astle
9. Tim Southee
10. Hamish Bennett
11. Chris Martin

Kane Williamson's the best #3 in the country
Chris Martin is still one of the best 3 seamers in the country
Vettori needs to play at 6, Franklin's bowling these days in a non factor and if our batsman some how get us in the position where we need someone to bowl the opposition out on a day 5 pitch then imo the best person to do that is Todd astle
 

Iafeta

Referee
Messages
24,357
@Bolded
While the rest of our middle/lower order collapsed that innings got us to a situation where we could only win/draw but your worried about his strike rate? :roll:

Nice late and horribly invalid entrance to the thread. :lol::lol: Did I say I had a problem with what his strike rate was?? No. The comment was raised earlier that his 50 was scored at a good clip ("And then in the 2nd innings he scored at good clip which was required"), which by modern test match standards it was not. I couldn't care less what his strike rate was. It is concerning that NZ test bats don't convert starts well.

Good work on being way off the mark Einstein.

For a situation where we could only win/draw, up until Younus Khan got out, I think its fair to say the third option was very much on. Scoring test match centuries are the type of performances that help set up test match wins, the New Zealand top order just do it consistent enough.
 

Fast Eddie

First Grade
Messages
8,085
You don''t think his effort int he 2nd innings was good? He and McCullum were the only ones who pushed the game along and he did while wickets fell around them.
 

Benjitheking

Juniors
Messages
58
Nice late and horribly invalid entrance to the thread. :lol::lol: Did I say I had a problem with what his strike rate was?? No. The comment was raised earlier that his 50 was scored at a good clip ("And then in the 2nd innings he scored at good clip which was required"), which by modern test match standards it was not. I couldn't care less what his strike rate was. It is concerning that NZ test bats don't convert starts well.

Good work on being way off the mark Einstein.

For a situation where we could only win/draw, up until Younus Khan got out, I think its fair to say the third option was very much on. Scoring test match centuries are the type of performances that help set up test match wins, the New Zealand top order just do it consistent enough.

So if you "couldn't care less about his strike rate" then why did you bring it up in the first place? :roll:
 

Iafeta

Referee
Messages
24,357
You don''t think his effort int he 2nd innings was good? He and McCullum were the only ones who pushed the game along and he did while wickets fell around them.

It's 'good' because its in the context with whats surrounding him in the batting order. They are all mediocre underachievers who are not consistent enough at building match winning totals. They don't convert enough starts into 100s. Yesterday was another example of that. Guppers was off to a good start. Styris and Williamson let the run rate blow out to over 8 an over, which would be ok, if they carried on. None of them did. Hafeez for Pakistan did, laying the platform.

As a test nation, the only player for us who was consistent at scoring hundreds was Martin Crowe. We only have three bats in our top order who have scored more than 10 test centuries in our entire history. In this current test team unit we don't have players who will do the donkey work consistently to get 100s, and we don't have strike bowlers who even to an inconsistent level take 5 wickets in an innings. We have a bunch of good players, but not enough to be match winners. They need to get into the habit of owning their craft and taking the good starts and converting them into big innings. That's what makes the great teams great. THey can rely on their players to get 100s, and they have bowlers who can go through another team when required.

So if you "couldn't care less about his strike rate" then why did you bring it up in the first place? :roll:

benji, or should I say :iwstupid:...

I didn't bring it up in the first place, I responded. You do know there is a difference, right? Back to forum elementary 101 for you you dunce.

Fast Eddie, do you mind explaining to benjitheking why you brought up in the first place about Taylor's strike rate? It seems to be of some major mental concern for him. I'm not sure he can sleep at night unless you break it down for him.
 
Last edited:

Manu Vatuvei

Coach
Messages
16,952
He would walk into our Test Team,prob even be Captain

Nonsense.

Imagine for a second the current Vettori emerged in Australia, otherwise unheard of, and got given a go in the test side. Without the opportunity of playing the worst test nations on a regular basis (which NZ do all the time and Aus rarely do) he would average over 40 with the ball, never turn one, and get dropped after 3 or 4 tests like every other Aussie spinner. Actually, he'd turn it less than any spinner you've ever had and probably go down in history on some "worst ever Baggy Green wearers" list
 

JJ

Immortal
Messages
31,978
What's with the Guptill love... seriously...


yes, he has a bit of talent, but he's done so little it's laughable...

Test lineup
McCullum
McIntosh (until someone better emerges)
Taylor
Ryder
Broom
Williamson
Young
Vettrori (until someone better emerges)
Southee
Arnel (until someone better emerges)
Martin

ODI - lost cause
Ryder
McCullum
Taylor
Styris
Williamson
Franklin
Oram
Vetorri
McCullum
Mills (why he's not first bowler pic has me staggered)
Southee
 

Fast Eddie

First Grade
Messages
8,085
Agree on Broom getting a shot, disagree about Arnel being retained, he's got nothing and about 5-6 bowlers in domestic cricket could do a better job in test cricket then him.
 

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