WAR!!!

[imported_midas]

bomber
I hate to stuff up your mathematical masterpiece but I,m sure Dubya had to ask for $US80bn-thats EIGHTY-billion.Or $135 billion Pacific Pesos.

 

[TheSaint]

I heard reports that in one city that an uprising had occured. If this is the case, it would add argument to the validity of this war in my books. Saddam is not going to be forced out of office by deplomacy. Hopefully more people will take this opportunity to fight off their oppressor. One thing that must happen though is that the Americans, Brittish and Australians must safe guard the freedom won by any group with the balls to revolt against the regieme.

 

[imported_Beast]

It was the Shi'ite majority in Basra who jacked up in 1991 and were left high and dry by the Yanks. The Kurds also jacked up after the CIA promised them the world and then shot through on them leaving them virtually defenceless against a vengeful Saddam.
Apparently this rebellion is being subdued by nasty means as well. The Brits are not entering the city but are waiting to see what pans out.

Saddam will go but it may well be into exile once his forces in and aroung Baghdad and running out of ammo and people. The Yanks have left the door open to him to retire to some palatial set up, probably in Africa..that way the Yanks will have a face saving result once the war has dragged on for a few months instead of the few days predicted by Bush, Rumsfeld and Downer etc.

 

[pepe]

i'm with johnnie howard,we have to support the yanks and rid the world of the saddam husseins of this world,we ignored thenazi regime under hitler andas a result over 50 million died.

these idiots burning flags etc in australia should be set aligh also,i'm sick of all these protesters mouthing off in public places stating there case.

simon crean is as weak as piss,it's probably a good thing however as beazley will replace him before the next federal election.

pepe

 

[imported_Beast]

Mr Pepe,
There is no argument that Saddam is a ratbag, and a nasty one at that and he is on the way out..might be a few days might be a few weeks but he will be gone but to be replaced in the long term by what?
The Yanks are there for oil, black gold, texas tea..it was for this substance that they gave Saddam billions in high tech weaponery in the 70s and 80s and apparently in the 90s ...and gave him a green light to use against who ever he wished in the region..his own people, the Iranians, whoever..as long as he kept pumping shit loads of oil their way.
Only a fool would think the Yanks are in that sand blown shit hole for any other reason.

And you quote that failure to act on the Nazis caused such loss of life..very true. But the Brits and then the Aussies were shooting at the the Nazis in 1939.. the Aussies were a long way from Germany but sent over the cream of our youth to fight the Nazi bastards in the air, ground and seas.

The Yanks did not get involved against Nazism till 1943..what does that tell you of the American psyche or attitude. Nazism did not offend them till 1943..took their time to come over and support the Allies didn't they. Mind you they got into the First World War about 3 years after it started..so they have a track record of tolerating nasty regimes.

The only wars they made on time apart from their own Civil War and War of Independence was the Korean War and the Vietnam War..they had their arses kicked in those..but not before they scarred the general unarmed populace which is a habit they appear to be continuing to this day!

 

[Willow]

MFC: 14 arrested, dick adams said that they were of middle eastern appearance

Thats interesting Moffo... Apparently this could mean that anything...like they could be Israeli or Saudi Arabian or Egyptian or Turkish or Lebanese. Some Italian and Greeks even havethat 'exotic' look about them.Regardless ofhow they looked, exactly what is the announcer trying to achieve bysaying that the protestors are of 'middle eastern appearance'?

Its a big part of the world with many different looking people.

I recall a similar media report after white supremists were found responsible for the Oklahoma bombing - immediately following the incident it was reported that people of 'middle eastern appearance' were seen running from the scene. Whatever happened to those people?

 

[Willow]

"we ignored thenazi regime under hitler andas a result over 50 million died."
G'day Pepe.

When the example of Hitler is used, we often see reference only being made to his expansion across Europe and Britain finally declaring war when the Nazis invaded Poland.

In reality, there were a great many cirmcumstances in the preceding years which saw Hitler rise to power and become a threat to world peace.

It started with the end of WWI and the Treaty of Versailles which was extremely harsh on the German people. The French-led reparations were an act of vengeance designed to bankrupt Germany thereby causinghardship on the German people. It created an environment which was ideal for revolt.

At the time, Communism was getting hold in Europe and in Germany, the Communists were gaining in popularity at a rapid rate. This caused great concern for the capitalists of Europe who naturally saw state-run business as a great threat. Communism also caused concern for the church who knew that by their very nature, Commies were atheists and would undermine religious freedomsand more importantly, the power of the church.

To the Calvanists of Europe, Hitler and his National Socialist party seemed like the better option. A power struggle ensued and when push came to shove, the capitalists and the Catholic church sided with the Nazis and Hitler wasappointed Chancellor of Germany.

This may sound outrageous to some... I mean, to suggest that the Catholics backed Hitler never goes down well. But at the time, it seemed like the ideal situation. French and British foreign policy endorsed Hitler's appointment simply because they saw him as a buffer between themselves and the rise of Communism.

For the power brokers, Hitler had a lot of redeeming features:
Hehated the Commies, he was fond Britain and the British, he was a church going Catholic and he was a passionate and convincing speaker.
Sure, he didnt like the Jews buthis backers could live with that... all in all, a jolly decent chap.

So there's a bit more to it than to say that Hitler simply built up arms and marched across Europe. He had to get to that position and history shows that the blame can be shared.

Needless to say, circumstances may differ but generally speaking, history has anasty habit of repeating itself.

 

[imported_realraul]

The Yanks did not get involved against Nazism till 1943..what does that tell you of the American psyche or attitude. Nazism did not offend them till 1943..took their time to come over and support the Allies didn't they. Mind you they got into the First World War about 3 years after it started..so they have a track record of tolerating nasty regimes

the americans had no interest in what the europeans were doing to each other. they were on the other side of the world.

the americans only entered the fray in ww1 because a ship with many american civilians was sunk by the germans. i'm sure everyone is aware that there was talk that the british sabotaged the ship so the germans would only need to look sideways at it to sink the thing. the british needed the americans and they were going to get them.

in ww2 the americans were preoccupied by the japanese to worry about those pesky europeans but when they saw that hitler got bogged down in russia the threat of communism was too much to ignore. the french and the british were in over their heads and the germans had spread themselves too thinly. the time was right for the americans to intervene.

i think the two wars made the americans think of themselves as a superpower and the new soviet union wanted to be a superpower as well and so, the cold war began and with it all the meddling (money making) in other countries affairs.

 

[imported_realraul]

Sure, he didnt like the Jews buthis backers could live with that... all in all, a jolly decent chap.

the jews certainly think so. hitler led them to the promised land (isreal) and once there they set about forming their own nazi state. and hitler has been very useful to them ever since, those war criminals make for great distractions from current issues and the holocaust is always useful for sympathy pleas.

 

[imported_JoeD]

I'm in favour of going in hard, taking the country in 72 hours like they are apparently planning to do. - Roopy

- US President George W Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair have vowed to wage war for as long as it takes to eliminate Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, as fierce Iraqi resistance raises questions about how long the fighting might last. - NZ Herald

"I feel like we are getting our arse whipped," comes the reply. "Wherever I turn there is someone trying to kill me. Damn this country and damn these people." "You go through all that training," he said. "You know you are in Iraq but, until you hear bullets and see those tracers, you don't think any of it is real. I can remember thinking, 'I can't believe it. They're taking on the might of the American army'. It shocked me." - US Soldiers talking to a Telegraph reporter.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

An interesting side note, do people ever consider the economic situation of Germany leading into WW2? While far from knowing the full story, i have read before that the German economy was crippled in the lead up to the war, i do believe they suffered from hyperinflation at one point, prices going up by amazing numbers on a daily basis. I have read theories that in part, (and one of Hitlers motives behind going to war) was to kick start the economy and give Hitler a greater number of trading partners. Does anyone buy these theories as thie being one of the reasons behind his motives leading into WW2?

Its quite a scary time indeed. I have a friend who has relatives that live in Baghdad, and they really have no idea what is going on. Apart from being in the bunkers, they are in a pretty terrifying situation (and they don't support Saddam) - But don't tell him that . Ive also got a cousin in the army who is headed over there, got called up 2 days ago and is tipped to go in about a month. He is doing a quick chemical weapons course atm, and then he is off. Once again, who knows what will happen

MFC: 14 arrested, dick adams said that they were of middle eastern appearance

Thats interesting Moffo... Apparently this could mean that anything...like they could be Israeli or Saudi Arabian or Egyptian or Turkish or Lebanese. Some Italian and Greeks even havethat 'exotic' look about them.Regardless ofhow they looked, exactly what is the announcer trying to achieve bysaying that the protestors are of 'middle eastern appearance'?

Its a big part of the world with many different looking people.

I recall a similar media report after white supremists were found responsible for the Oklahoma bombing - immediately following the incident it was reported that people of 'middle eastern appearance' were seen running from the scene. Whatever happened to those people?

lol, its a good question. But i understand where they come from. Could u differentiate a lebanese person from....say an Egyptian all the time? I mean, if they came out saying they were lebanese and it ended up being egyptians (for instance), than they will come off looking quite unprofessional

But its interesting that all the radio and tv guys since have come out with all guns blazing, claiming confidently that they were all lebanese. Id like to bet they wern't.

Cheers,
Moffo

 

[Willow]

I think its day 8 (or 9?) of the war now. The rhetoric has changed from being 'over in two weeks' to 'as long as it takes'.
Ofcourse was naive to ever think it would be over in two weeks and those leading the charge knewit all along.

The US hoped to avoid urban warfare and with good reason. The Iraqis will defend their ground... defending armies always fight harder. Short of nuking Baghdad, I can't see how this war will be over this year, let alone this month.

Nevertheless it does appear that certain sections of US stragedy relied on Saddam and his goons slipping out the back door. That doesnt appear to be happening. Additionally, the attacking forces appear to have underestimated the local forces in some sections. It was assumed that the Iraqi people will greet the invasion force as liberators and a rebellion would follow to topple Saddam Hussein.

While this may be true in some circumstances, it is hardly the general result. For every Iraqi that hates Saddam Hussein, a dozen more hate Bush.

You cant really bomb market places and expect everyone to then trust you.

It'll be interesting to see which spin will be adopted when this thing is still going in two months from now. I guess they'll stop calling in 'operation shock and awe'.

 

[Willow]

Moffo: "do people ever consider the economic situation of Germany leading into WW2? "

Well yes mate, I thought I did in my earlier post. The Treaty of Versailles imposed heavy reparations on Germany and as the world slipped into Depression, Germany was more devastated than most. The allies sat back and allowed Germany to go bankrupt.

This opened the door for the likes of Hitler and anyone else who offered a solution.

There's more to it but I dont think you want the full ten volumes of 'The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich'.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Wouldn't mind a bit of light early morning reading I thought u were referring to the economics of the situation in your earlier post, but i just thought id make sure

Its just a pity that the facts are distorted somewhat. In studying history, we were always taught that Hitler was an evil tyrant. Full stop. And as most people are only taught about history at school,a more objective view would've been good to see.I thought that a well rounded education would've went to greater lengths to explain why he took up this position, why the German populus supported him and more of the 'psychological' aspects of his character. No doubting that he was an evil man, but its not hard to draw at least some parallels to other 'great' dictators throughout history. Even a parallel between him and Saddam exists, in that they pretty well hijacked the country, offered 'a solution', imposed beliefs on the people and didn't allow for alternatives.

Cheers,
Moffo

 

[Willow]

"we were always taught that Hitler was an evil tyrant. "
Well he was that as well.
If Hitler had of left the Jews alone and was just your run-of-the-mill racist, he might have been remembered differently. There's more than a few mad pricks running countries as we speak.
But the Holocaust kind of earned him a reputation that overides all other considerations.

 

[imported_JoeD]

I remember (from 5th form history) stories about german inflation leading up to WWII. People would have to take a basket full of money to buy a loaf of bread or if there was a wheel barrow full of money lying around, the wheel barrow would get stolen and the money dumped. My history class (if I remember correctly) put quite a lot of emphasis on the Treaty of Versaiiles as being a major factor in Hitler's rise to power.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

I head the Brazilians held an anti-Bush protest today.

 

[imported_midas]

Moffo
Those arrested at Wednesday,s demo have been confirmed as being of Middle Eastern background,predominantly Lebanese Muslim.
This has been confirmed by Sheik Taj el-Din Al Hilaly
,the senior mufti of Australia,and Keysar Trad of the Lebanese Muslim Association.
Apart from being a legitimate means of labelling suspects,the use of the term "of Middle Eastern appearance " by Dick Adams helps to highlight the ongoing social problem that exists in sydney with a large section of Middle Eastern youth.
This is not my opinion but is acknowledged by the Sheik and Mr Trad.
Programs are in place to improve this situation but the problems are obviously going to take a long time to solve.
I understand Dick Adams is eternally grateful for Willow,s anthropological lesson.

 

[legend]

S & M, what's wrong with shrubs? Personally, I thnk they are great.

 

[imported_midas]

Actually,legend,I think the Brazilian anti-Bush rally was sponsored by Gillette.