WAR!!!

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[imported_justme]

But I can see whats going on and I choose to keep an open mind. For some reason, this ticks people off.
Gee you are slow Willow.Obviously if you knockSidekick John's decision on waryou must be a Labour stooge so to defeat your argument re war one simply needs to attackCrean. The issue itself is irrelevant, one has to defend the party.


But imo,this thing is little bigger than Simon Crean or John Howard.
What thing? I thought we were discussing the merits of Crean & howard, Liberal and Labour. Damn, I've posted in the wrong thread.

 

[imported_realraul]

forget the party lines boys

this thing is little bigger than Simon Crean or John Howard.

yes, exactly.

so why is howard copping it so much ?

do you think he has a choice with his actions ? there was only one option for him to follow. as many unfortunate countries have found out, you don't want america to be one of your enemies. especially when they want you to be their ally.

 

[Willow]

realraul: "so why is howard copping it so much ?"
He's the current PM and is sending Aust into another warbut where is copping it so much?
I'm against the war because it will serve no purpose other than to increase terrorism and human suffering.
I don't give a stuff about Howard. I would have been against the war even if thePM was Jack Mundy.

"you don't want america to be one of your enemies. especially when they want you to be their ally."
I agree with that.

justme: "Gee you are slow Willow.Obviously if you knockSidekick John's decision on waryou must be a Labour stooge so to defeat your argument re war one simply needs to attackCrean."
LOL. It gets worse... I've been accused of supporting Saddan Hussein and Osama bin Laden simply becuase I dont like America's foreign policy.

 

[imported_justme]

simply becuase I dont like America's foreign policy.
Streuth, why don't you likeoil?

 

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[Willow]

justme: Streuth, why don't you likeoil?
Depends what type of oil youre talking about.

Before I shuffle off. I'd like to thank Craig once again for reprinting my post (#107)fromEl Duque'sRumfield thread... some of my best work.

The so-called 'opiniated shit' was based on partly onviewpointbut mostly on historical fact. Craig... being the top bloke he is, failed to actually offered anything near a valid argument - unless offcourse drunken rambles have now become a preresquisite to debates, in which case I stand corrected.

Since then offcourse, skerritts of info and linkshave been provided but these are merely other people's 'opinionated shit' and could never compare with Craig's incredibly well connected research on this matter.

Not surpringly, Craig Meltiger'stremendous wit and enlightenment has got the better of us once again.

 

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[Vertigo]

A great discussion!
It's just been announced that the Turkishgovernment has unanimously voted that Turkey has agreed to open its air-space to US and its allies for overflight rights
Turkey opens airspace to U.S.
V.

 

[meltiger..]

Since then offcourse, skerritts of info and linkshave been provided but these are merely other people's 'opinionated shit' and could never compare with Craig's incredibly well connected research on this matter.

lol

& have I ever claimed that my views are based on anything factual? No, they are my opinions and I have been quite clear in putting forth that it is 'My opinion or My Belief' ... Not trying to play off conspiracy theories and innuendo from biased, self interested sources as fact as have some of the posts above.

& for the record mate, I drink about once a fortnight... We do grow up eventually you know,so you can cut out the drunken ramblings shit.

I do however thank you, in your quest to chase away any slight credibility I may have here, you have proven to me once and for all that you have no evidence of an oil link to this war, & yours and every other 'war is about oil' morons opinion on this war is based purely on their ideological loathing of the US, not anything at all relevant in the actual current events.

 

[meltiger..]

Hmm, my other post seems to have disapeared (I think I forgot to hit send lol )

I was saying Willow, I've always had respect for yur ability to argue your views be it on local or foreign policy. We never have agreed on much in this sense but you've always been a worthy foe in any such argument.

However in this one instance, you are supporting your claim with nothing but biased rubbish from sites such as the 'World Socialist Website' (Yes i know it was Marty who actually posted that but it's one and the same)

All I asked, was you provide evidence, instead of opinion or 'commentary' as you so put it. No need to take such offence mate

The former British Foreign Minister has zero credibility now.

(& it's 7:15am in the morning, so you can be assured I'm not drunk yet lmao )

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Well i did the 'uni' thing yesterday and walked through the streets at the town hall rally. Now before the tree hugger haters come out of the woodwork, i was more there as an interested onlooker, wanted to take a look at things from the other side. Did anyone see me?

Have to admit, seeing George Street deserted at peak hour was quite a site. To see businessmen walking down George Street instead of the footpaths was a unique scene

But anyways, there was a big turnout, looked like more than the numbers they reported. Everyone had their banners and various interest groups joined up along the way. It started down the bottom of parramatta road with syd uni students, and all the other groups joined in along the way.

Admittedly, there was a lunatic fringe. Professional protestors would be the best way to describe them. Ill be honest, i find it extremely hard to form a strong opinion either way. After watching the docos on Saddam a few days ago, i know how bad Saddam is and how its essential that he is removed. But then i look at what war is about and i think, no, i dont want that either. So its a tough one

Cheers,
Moffo

 

[imported_JoeD]

How much money is America spending on this war? Lets just say a very conservative estimate is US$100 Billion. Consider thatone B2 bomber costs 1.157 Billion. How many do they have? 20? that eats up your 100B pretty quick. If you had this amount of money, to devise any plan you wanted, to make Iraq a peaceful place, would your plan be to bomb the shit out of them? Saddam is a bad guy, everybody seems in agreement about this. If they want to get rid of him why don't they get a bit creative about it. If Saddam is such a bad guy and oppresses his people as badly as america suggests then the general Iraqi public should be welcoming US troops with open arms. Therefore the only thing standing in the way of US 'liberating' Iraq is the Iraqi army. How many are in the Iraqi army? An article I read put the figure at 420,000. I'm not sure if thats right or not but for arguments sake, lets say it is.
Lets say we devote half of our money to buying the allegiance of the Iraqi army. Thats 50 Billion divided by 420,000 = aprox $208,000 for every member of the Iraqi army. Now the army is not only out of the picture, but working for you. You can spend the other 50 Bil on developing infrastructure, or doing what you like.

There is one alternative to war.

 

[Willow]

Craig Meltiger: "The former British Foreign Minister has zero credibility now."
Why is that? Because it suits your argument?

Youre saying that this statement means nothing:
Foreign Secretary Jack Straw has admitted that oil is a key factor in the UK’s willingness to participate in a US-led war against Iraq.

I get it now... what if I was to show quotes from US Republican Congressmen saying much of the same thing? That is, the war is about US economic interests. Such quotes do exist... but alas I have to prove it by producing documents in triplicate just so you can say its all bullshit anyway.

The number of Iraqi dead in the last war was over 50,000 and there were attempts to discredit this figure... but even when I reveal the source, its simply dismissed out of hand. There's no debate, no checking of alternative figures... just simple denial.... so why should I bother?

The USA have put oil above people throughout this. The evidence is overwhelming. If you wish to put forward an argument against this, based on research, then I'm all ears.

Nevertheless Craig, I don't care if you disagree because Colin Powell himself could sayits all aboutmoneyand you'd still be in a state of denial.

 

[Willow]

"How much money is America spending on this war?"
Joe, in1990, the US spent $61BILLION (US) on the last Gulf war- you can sure that this war costs at least double that.

To get this in perspective, the US spent $111BIL on Vietnam over an 18 year period (1957-1975) and $50BIL on the Korean war overa four year period (1950-53) - the value of currency was quite different offcourse but we have to keep in mind that the last Gulf War only lasted a relatively short while... a matter of weeks.

 

[meltiger..]

Willow :

Craig Meltiger: "The former British Foreign Minister has zero credibility now."
Why is that? Because it suits your argument?

Youre saying that this statement means nothing:
Foreign Secretary Jack Straw has admitted that oil is a key factor in the UK’s willingness to participate in a US-led war against Iraq.

I get it now... what if I was to show quotes from US Republican Congressmen saying much of the same thing? That is, the war is about US economic interests. Such quotes do exist...

Yes, unless any kind of evidence was thrown forward I would not believe it purely because a left wing politician decided to not offend his own supporters who put him in his position in the first place by supporting the war,

I could come up with numerous online articles to support my belief that it is not in fact about oil, but alas they would be nothing but opinion by experts in the industry and of course they wouldn't have as much credibility as a tree-hugging leftist who instantly endeared himself to your lot by attacking the US motive.

Theres no difference between what I could produce and what you can produce... It's nothing more than opinionated shit and if you think that any single one of us can make informed comments on the exact US motive for this war.... Than you are a moron Willow, not a single person who has contributed to this thread or reads this site could possibly know what is running through the minds of the US Government now or at any time.

Difference, some of us are quite to right our own opinions off as just that... others are quite prepared to throw up their speculative opinions as fact.

& I'm sorry mate but given the UN's importance has been the current catchcry of the left & other opponents of the war, I'd rather believe the figures I read that they had put together rather than something pulled from a website such as you do.

You are free to do as you please though. Just get off your high horse and accept that some of us don't share your anti-american views.

 

[imported_JoeD]

After watching the docos on Saddam a few days ago,

We've had 'docos' in the past couple of days also(if you can call them that). Funny on the timing of these things isn't it? It cracks me up when someone like Meltiger asks for 'proof'. What are you supposed to say 'yeah well, my mate in the Pentagon told me that . . . ' or ' I know a guy who works as a spy and he took some photos and he said that . . .'

When are people going to realize that the US runs a huge PR machine and that nothing we hear even closely resembles the truth or facts. Thats why I remain sceptical about everything that I hear and read about on TV and in the papers. All I know for sure is a couple of things my mummy told me when I was a little kid:

Two wrongs don't make a right
As you sow, so shall you reap

and one other that comes to mind - Killing is Sin

 

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[meltiger..]

"Difference, some of us are quite to right our own opinions off as just that... others are quite prepared to throw up their speculative opinions as fact."

LOL, yes I am aware that is a terrrible combination of spelling mistakes, missing words and general errors.

<table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=4 width="100%" border=0> <tbody> <tr> <td nowrap width="100%">From: JoeD</td> <td nowrap>Sent: 21/03/2003 9:37 AM</td></tr></tbody></table> <table class=ThmBgStandard cellspacing=0 cellpadding=10 width="100%" border=0> <tbody> <tr> <td> After watching the docos on Saddam a few days ago,

We've had 'docos' in the past couple of days also(if you can call them that). Funny on the timing of these things isn't it? It cracks me up when someone like Meltiger asks for 'proof'. What are you supposed to say 'yeah well, my mate in the Pentagon told me that . . . ' or ' I know a guy who works as a spy and he took some photos and he said that . . .'

When are people going to realize that the US runs a huge PR machine and that nothing we hear even closely resembles the truth or facts. Thats why I remain sceptical about everything that I hear and read about on TV and in the papers. All I know for sure is a couple of things my mummy told me when I was a little kid:

I agree 100%. Thank you for conceeding that NONE of you actually know what is going on and you all lack and kind of facts to back up your argument other than the tired old 'Two wrongs don't make a right' argument &amp; general anti-americanism.
</td></tr></tbody></table>

 

[Willow]

"You are free to do as you please though. Just get off your high horse and accept that some of us don't share your anti-american views."
I'd accept that if I was anti-american. Where have I indicated that I dont like American people? You've missed my point completely... its about the fultility of war and how people will do whatever it takes to create a war to suit their ends. It's not to do with lefties or righties or Crean or Howard.

But offourse I aceept that not everyone will agree with me. You on the other hand have called it 'opiniated shit' which to may of thinking, means that youre too rigid to even consider the view of others.