WAR!!!

[Cronulla_Mania]

The most interesting one was the docos on Discovery Channel on Wednesday night. The first one was more an overview of Iraq over the last 50 years, and the second one focused more on the relationships between Saddams family members

Very interesting indeed. They interviewed a wide variety of people. They showed footage of people being hung under Saddam orders, the demolition of the Kurds and threats to Saddam being taken out and eliminated once he assumed top position. There is no doubt in my mind that Saddam must be taken out. No doubt at all. Anyone who argues otherwise is misinformed, there is just no other way to put it.

But im just as anti-war, which as i said before, puts one in a tricky position. I come back to thinking of the greater good, and i think for the sake of Iraq, it needs a country without Saddam as its head.

Ill come out and say it. I call a spade a spade, America have a lot to answer for. Their foreign policy has more holes in it than a block of swiss cheese. They have jumped sides more times than Tyran Smith. Im not anti-american, i just think that certain americans have A LOT to answer for!

Cheers,
Moffo

 

[imported_JoeD]

Ok, then why do you support the war? You say we have no facts to back our argument against the war, do you have facts to back your arguments for the war? No more than we do. You have blind faith in Howard, Blair and Bush. Why is that? When faced with a situation in which I know little information I tend to go with what has treated me well in the past. Those sayings in my previous post. Your reaction seems to be supporting a war that will no doubt result in thousands of lost lives.

'Two wrongs don't make a right' might be an old saying, but I've yet to see it proved wrong.

 

[ozbash]

i started off having a pro bush opinion on it all but hans blix has changed my mind.
What happens to the U.N now ?

 

[Willow]

Ozbash, I've held the view for some time that the US administration wants to dismantle the UN. Not just the current mob with Bush Jnr but also Clinton, Bush Snr and Reagan.

They US havent paid for their due contributions for years now. While the Democrats may have been a bit wishy washy, the Republicans have been very dictatorial towards the UN. Its an interesting situation where the US dont pay their bills but still practically run the show.

The latest episode with large factions within the UN opposing the war will possibly be the last straw and it wouldnt suprise to see a different looking oraganisation within the next 5 years.

 

[Willow]

Meltiger: "I'd rather believe the figures I read that they had put together rather than something pulled from a website such as you do."

LOL.. well thats funny... with so much stuff to pick to bits, I missed that one in the first round.

Sadly, your powers of perception have let you down there. Despite your rather extraordinary statement, I can assure youI don't think the world revolves around the internet.

You go ahead and believe what you read... but please, fillus in on your preferred sources of information. I don't want to be guilty of thinking that your farm most of your info from John Laws and Ralph magazine.. I'm sure youre far more sophisticated than that. I prefer Roy and HG myself but have lately been swinging towards the old bloke in the corner shop... whatever he doesnt know isnt worth talking about.

Before the internet (yes, there was oncea world without the internet), we had to read between the lines if we wanted a basic idea of what was really going...even then, we cant be sure. I only use the internet as a resource tool...its about all its good for. I still try to read the between the lines and question every sentence... imo, its important to question everything... and I do mean everything.

 

[Johnsy]

Boys,

The $64,000 question is America and the coalition prepared to spend the money and time to repair Iraq after the war has concluded, and are they going to let the people of Iraq choose what style of government they want or will it be a western view of what is best for the Iraqies?

Johnsy

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

"You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy,
the best golfer is a black guy, France is accusing the US of arrogance
and Germany doesn't want to go to war."

Cheers,
Moffo

 

[Willow]

You're right Johnsy... the war is underway so there's no point worrying about the reasons. The aftermath should be the main concern now.

"...is America and the coalition prepared to spend the money and time to repair Iraq "
Tony Blair has said that there is a place for the UN for the rehabilitation of Iraq once the war is done with. No doubt investment will flow into Iraq - usually referred to as 're-building', it involves business coming in and filling in the void left by the destruction.
But I think most of the responsibility will fall on the aid agencies such as Red Cross (give generously folks).

After the last war, a number of economic sanctions were placed on Iraq. These have led to outbreaks of disease with water being in short supply. While its clear that Saddam Hussein has committed atrocities against his own people, we hear very little said of the people dying every year from the trade sanctions.

One aid agency, headed up by Reverend Neville Watson of the Uniting Church in Perth reports that over 40,000 children die every year in Iraq because if these sanctions (btw Meltiger, thats off the radio ole son).
The US and Australian governments dont want to know about this so its debatable if they'll takeany responsibility this time round.

"...and are they going to let the people of Iraq choose what style of government they want or will it be a western view of what is best for the Iraqies?"

I understand that the Turkish government wants a big say in the running of Iraq which is a bit of worry because they hate the Kurds more than anyone. No one really knows for sure but once again Tony Blair said that he wants imput from the UN on this... whatever that means.

 

[imported_midas]

The only reason anyone would be dying in Iraq is because the proceeds of their oil contracts and their back-door deals have been siphoned off by Saddam to maintain his Armies and his war machine.Look at the vast quantities of wheat and sheep Australia have been selling to Iraq-where does that go?
Don,t think you or Reverend Whathisname can pin that one on the US,Willow.
Never mind,I,m sure you,ll find something else.

 

[Willow]

midas: "The only reason anyone would be dying in Iraq is because the proceeds of their oil contracts and their back-door deals have been siphoned off by Saddam "
Is that the only reason? oh gosh... silly me.

"Don,t think you or Reverend Whathisname can pin that one on the US,Willow."
I dunno, why don't you ask him...? I'msure Neville Watson would enjoy being referred to as 'reverend whathisname'.
Or better still, shoot the bloody messenger... it seems like a popular pastime of late.
This is someone working in the field... I'd like to think he has a some credibility.

"Never mind,I,m sure you,ll find something else."
That seems to be the worry. I keep on repeating this stuff from radical lunatics like church people, military people, business people, academics and god forbid, even politicians.

 

[imported_midas]

I,m sure I can find someone in each of those categories who takes the opposing view,so what .You say you question everything but of course you don,t .You simply search around until you find someone who supports your view.
If in fact children have been dying in those numbers because of the sanctions the the UN should hang it,s head in shame because they certainly have done nothing about it.

 

[Willow]

"You simply search around until you find someone who supports your view."
Bullshit.

For a start, other forummers have been putting up the links and quotes as well.

Secondly and moreimportantly, I DONOT search around looking for supportive views... I leave that up the cut and pasters. Crikey, I really have better things to do. What I do is discuss my opinion and sometimes I research it... usually after somelazy juveniletells me its allrubbish.
What usually happens next is that its ignored anyway... thats a little annoying but hardly surprising.

And finally, whats the friggin problem if I express my view on this....? You seem to forget that this isnt about me or you or even about differing points of views. I dont expect you to agree with me...and I dont care.

"If in fact children have been dying in those numbers because of the sanctions the the UN should hang it,s head in shame because they certainly have done nothing about it."
I agree. I dont recall ever saying that the UN was blameless. The UN has been powerless on a great many issues for years.
FYI, the sanctions are UN endorsed with the backing of the USA. When pointing the finger, everyone can put up their hand on that one.

 

[Willow]

I've been trying to avoid the news but just turned it on.

Dont know what to believe but according to the scrolling news as it happens stuff, Baghdad is a 'fiery inferno' following US and UK bombardment.

 

[CyberKev]

Hmmm...

This war has left me at sixes and sevens, as I've wanted to be rid of Saddam for ages and have to support the "Coalition of the Dilling" because of this, yet I still know more than enough about Messers Bush, Blair & Howard to be suitably suspicious about all of their motives. I'm hopeful that the whole sorry fiasco will be over sooner rather than later, at which point we'll be able to shift attention from concern over loss of life and will be able to consider the broader questions flowing from the issue.

1. Johnsy has already put this eloquently... Its not enough for Hussein and his henchmen to be removed from the picture, we must avoid another Taliban scenario here and ensure that a sound plan is put into place for the governance of post-War Iraq.
2. With the war dispensed with, will it be too much to expect the other UN nations to exert overdue pressure on the Americans to make certain that they start adhering to their own rules regarding military and political interactions on an international scale. For example, it is barely short of disgraceful that the Americans are refusing to sign the anti-Land Mines treaty. Few global fracas during the twentieth century couldn't be traced back to dubious tenets of American foreign policy and this must be deemed inacceptable for the twenty-first century.
3. In line with the above comment, how long will it be before the American "intelligence" finds "clear links" between Iran and the Al Qaeda network? Its time for hard evidence on things, as nothing will bring on a holy racial war with Middle Eastern nations with more certainty than ongoing blase and ill-considered American incursions into the region.
4. If America does shift attention to Iran next, will Australia again be the very first nation (even before the US themselves) to commit troops and resources to the initiative? It was noticeable that intense discussion and debate over Iraq preoccupied people right across the globe, but (surprise, surprise) the onlykey group not seenopenly debating the issue was the Australian Liberal Party. This is typical of the Party, which almost invariably lacks the stomach for debating issues in any depth and it is totally inacceptable given the money we're paying these people to do the job. Howard has been continually exposed for his penchant for ignoring, and regularly lying to, the Australian people, regardless of what happens in Iraq he cannot be seen in any way to be heroic. While not suggesting that the Liberals are happy to have war and global tension on the agenda, it is clearly diverting public attention from their dismal performances on the domestic front, and one would hope that we can get back to this primary aspect of Government as soon as possible.
5. If the Libs are dismal, what can we say about the Labor Party at present?! Up against the most mediocre and contemptable Government in Australian history and they scarcely even look like landing a glancing blow on them! From their perspective, it is frightening to think of what the make-up of the Lower-House would beif the Liberal front bench had a few people on it that were even remotely likable. Labor should have shafted Crean months ago, and will need to do so at the first opportunity, given that a short Iraq conflict will most likely result in an early Federal election. Its been a nonsense for the Labor Party to hitch its wagon to a vague and flimsy counter-position to the Libs re: Iraq. The Libs perennial weakness is on the domestic front, where the party continually falls down by providing poor governance through lack of governance. The Libs will rise or fall on their own bat with international issues and Labor will essentially be superfluous to these developments. If it has any serious ambitions about Governing any time remotely soon, then Labor has to sort out its (lack of) Leadership woes ASAP and start offering clearly articulated alternatives to the current domestic malaise.

CyberKev

 

[Navigator]

The way it is.

 

[imported_JoeD]

Here is another good article written on the war by respected journalist john Pilger

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/sundaystartimes/0,2106,2349761a6619,00.html

Some excerpts from the article:

Kamel was the west's "star witness" in its case against Saddam Hussein. He was no ordinary defector. A son-in-law of the Iraqi dictator, he had immense power in Iraq; and when he defected, he took with him crates of secret documents on Iraq's weapons programme. These secrets have been repeatedly cited by Bush and his officials as "evidence" Iraq still has large quantities of deadly weapons of mass destruction, and that only war can disarm it. Bush, his officials and leading American commentators, have frequently lauded Kamel as the most reliable source of information on Iraq's weapons. The Blair government has echoed this. In 1995, Kamel was debriefed by senior officials of the UN inspections team, then known as UNSCOM, and by the International Atomic Energy Agency. The complete transcript, now disclosed for the first time, contradicts almost everything Bush and Blair have said about the threat of Iraqi weapons. For example, Kamel says categorically: "I ordered destruction of all chemical weapons. All weapons - biological, chemical, missile, nuclear - were destroyed." All that remains, he says, are the blueprints, computer disks and microfiches.

 

[Bomber]

I think a quick straw poll is needed here.

This issue has been giving me more than a few headaches over the last few days.

Is it pronouced:

(a) Eye-Rarrrrk

or

(b) Eye-Rack

 

[Willow]

Bomber , what about E-rack, or Eeee-rarrrk... ?

 

[Bomber]

(a) Eye-Rarrrrrk
(b) Eye-Rack
(c) Eeeeeee-rack
(d) Eeeeee-rarrrrrrk

Vote now!

 

[Willow]

How about Persia?