West Coast Pirates Bid News

[TheRam]

For the first time in nine years I've decided to do something else that weekend. looks like I have finally been worn down by the NRL's inaction.

Sorry to hear that PR, but totally understandable mate.

The ARLC sucks massively, and really doesn't deserve loyalty from fans.

 

[jargan83]

Did they offer a Test and 2 club game package?

Yeah they did. But they also had the option to buy tickets to either of the club games which I didn't look at.

I got tickets to Manly vs Warriors and Kangaroos vs NZ.

I'll buy tickets to the Souffs vs Titans game when the bank account is replenished next week.

 

[BuffaloRules]

For the first time in nine years I've decided to do something else that weekend. looks like I have finally been worn down by the NRL's inaction.

Out of interest, were you in Aust during the SL war?

I wonder if things might have worked out differently for the Reds if they had of remained loyal to the ARL.

Throwing their lot in with SL never helped them.

 

[Diesel]

If the Reds were loyal to the ARL their tenure in first grade RL would've ended at the end of 97 anyway. The ARL was losing money fast. To me it's pretty shitty that the 3 Sydney SL clubs managed to qualify for the NRL yet foundation club Norths didn't, neither did the Chargers, Crushers or Perth which gave a national footprint.

 

[BuffaloRules]

If the Reds were loyal to the ARL their tenure in first grade RL would've ended at the end of 97 anyway. The ARL was losing money fast. To me it's pretty shitty that the 3 Sydney SL clubs managed to qualify for the NRL yet foundation club Norths didn't, neither did the Chargers, Crushers or Perth which gave a national footprint.

Well jumping ship to SL never did them any favours either.

Old Rupes preferred to piss them off and bring in the Storm who weren't even around at the time.

Fellow expansion clubs Nth Qld and Warriors survived.

News Ltd darlings Broncos succeeded in getting rid of the Crushers and 20 yrs later there is still only 1 team in Briabane.

What a total f**k up those times were.

 

[The Great Dane]

Out of interest, were you in Aust during the SL war?

I wonder if things might have worked out differently for the Reds if they had of remained loyal to the ARL.

Throwing their lot in with SL never helped them.

They would've gone broke before 2000 (mainly because they had to pay the travel costs of all the away teams) and thus wouldn't have met the criteria to stay in the competition during the 'peace talks' and would be in exactly the same position that they are at the moment.

In a scenario where the SL war never happens then they also would've gone broke before 2000, and because they weren't a Sydney team they couldn't rely on a bailout from the ARL.

The Reds, like pretty much every SL team (except the Bulldogs and the Broncos) were circling the drain when SL came around, every single on of them were steadily bleeding money (even the clubs that had only just joined the ARL 95) and it's a fair bet that had they never got the SL money all of them would have folded or have been saved by the ARL before 2005.

The Reds (and the Rams for that matter) were just unlucky that they were screwed by Murdock in favour of a team in Melbourne at the end of the war, otherwise there's a good chance that they would have stumbled on a handful of underrated Queenslanders and an ex-Raider trying his hand at being a head coach in the early 2000s and not the Storm.

 

[BuffaloRules]

They would've gone broke before 2000 (mainly because they had to pay the travel costs of all the away teams) and thus wouldn't have met the criteria to stay in the competition during the 'peace talks' and would be in exactly the same position that they are at the moment.

In a scenario where the SL war never happens then they also would've gone broke before 2000, and because they weren't a Sydney team they couldn't rely on a bailout from the ARL.

The Reds, like pretty much every SL team (except the Bulldogs and the Broncos) were circling the drain when SL came around, every single on of them were steadily bleeding money (even the clubs that had only just joined the ARL 95) and it's a fair bet that had they never got the SL money all of them would have folded or have been saved by the ARL before 2005.

The Reds (and the Rams for that matter) were just unlucky that they were screwed by Murdock in favour of a team in Melbourne at the end of the war, otherwise there's a good chance that they would have stumbled on a handful of underrated Queenslanders and an ex-Raider trying his hand at being a head coach in the early 2000s and not the Storm.

The Reds were the only pre existing SL team that got screwed over ... For the Storm.

Who is to say their travel impositions would have continued?

And why the f**k did their management volunteer to pay those costs in the first place?

 

[The Great Dane]

Well jumping ship to SL never did them any favours either.

Old Rupes preferred to piss them off and bring in the Storm who weren't even around at the time.

Fellow expansion clubs Nth Qld and Warriors survived.

News Ltd darlings Broncos succeeded in getting rid of the Crushers and 20 yrs later there is still only 1 team in Briabane.

What a total f**k up those times were.

Strictly speaking the Warriors didn't survive, the Auckland Warriors were folded and replaced with a new business called the NZ Warriors that had bought the rights to the Warriors name.

The Auckland Warriors were basically a week or two away from being told by the NRL that they were no longer needed when Eric Watson came in bought the Warriors brand, built a new club from the ground up, then went to the NRL with a new business plan and begged them to let him and NZ keep the license.

 

[BuffaloRules]

Strictly speaking the Warriors didn't survive, the Auckland Warriors were folded and replaced with a new business called the NZ Warriors that had bought the rights to the Warriors name.

The Auckland Warriors were basically a week or two away from being told by the NRL that they were no longer needed when Eric Watson came in bought the Warriors brand, built a new club from the ground up, then went to the NRL with a new business plan and begged them to let him and NZ keep the license.

No.. The Warriors survived.

I can recall the likes of Hadley absolutely foaming at the mouth calling for their demise in the late 90's.

" why should a New Zealand team be playing in the Australian Rugby League at the expense of Souths, Wests, Illawarra" he would say.

But they survived.

 

[The Great Dane]

The Reds were the only pre existing SL team that got screwed over ... For the Storm.

Well yes and no.

The Reds were the only pre existing club that were screwed by being folded, however all the other clubs (including the Rams and Mariners) were promised all sorts of things by SL going into the peace talks, none of which came to fruition for any of them except the Broncos.

Who is to say their travel impositions would have continued?

We've no reason to believe that they wouldn't have continued, but even if they hadn't all that would have done is bought them time.

With or without the travel costs they were screwed in the long run unless they could pull off some good deals and build a fan base fast.
Unfortunately they thought that SL was that club saving good deal.

And why the f**k did their management volunteer to pay those costs in the first place?

Because they were idiots.

Depending on who you believe either the Reds offered to pay for the oppositions travel costs as a way to convince the ARL to let them in, or the ARL would only let them into the competition if they payed the travel costs due to the concerns of some of the clubs about the effect that those cost would have on their clubs.

I don't know which of those stories is true, however I do know that either way the Reds management was bloody stupid to agree to paying those costs, it was basically signing your death warrant before you were born, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

[The Great Dane]

No.. The Warriors survived.

I can recall the likes of Hadley absolutely foaming at the mouth calling for their demise in the late 90's.

" why should a New Zealand team be playing in the Australian Rugby League at the expense of Souths, Wests, Illawarra" he would say.

But they survived.

I'm not arguing that they didn't survive, I'm just trying to show that speaking strictly as a business that the company known as the Auckland Warriors did not survive and that the Warriors brand would not have survived had Eric Watson not saved them.

In other words RL in NZ survived by the skin of it's teeth thanks one man.

BTW, Ray Hadley is a vicious and vindictive idiot, with a bloated ego and a massive chip on his shoulder. In my opinion rarely (if ever) should anything he says be taken to seriously, especially when it comes to Rugby league.

 

[BuffaloRules]

I find it hard to believe that the Reds were paying travel costs in 96-97 during the excesses of the SL war when reserve graders were getting paid half a mil sign on bonuses.

However, The Reds Management did offer to pay these costs in their bid document before they were admitted to the comp. I find it dishonest that some use this as some type of ARL inspired reason that ultimately ended up bankrupting them.

In the end, the Reds failed. Murdoch could have saved them if he so chose ( like he did the Warriors and Cowboys who went broke as well)

The Rams and Mariners were never getting saved.

 

[The Great Dane]

I find it hard to believe that the Reds were paying travel costs in 96-97 during the excesses of the SL war when reserve graders were getting paid half a mil sign on bonuses.

I never said that they were paying travel costs in 96-97, however I believe that were in 96 but not in 97.

However by that time they thought that they were safe.

In the end it wasn't the travel costs that killed them it was Murdoch screwing them, but it was (mainly) expenses from the travel costs that put them on the path to signing up to SL in the first place.

However, The Reds Management did offer to pay these costs in their bid document before they were admitted to the comp. I find it dishonest that some use this as some type of ARL inspired reason that ultimately ended up bankrupting them.

Again I don't know whether or not the ARL pressured the Reds into paying the travel costs or if they offered to do so themselves, and nor do I think the ARL was intentionally setting them up to fail if they did pressure them into it.

In my opinion it was a series of bad business decisions probably made by both the Reds and the ARL that lead to them having to pay those travel cost, that also left them on death row before they had got of the ground, and not some strange scheme set in place by the ARL to set them up to fail.

In the end, the Reds failed. Murdoch could have saved them if he so chose ( like he did the Warriors and Cowboys who went broke as well)

Apart from the money that he gave them during the war Murdoch didn't really do anything to help either the Cowboys or the Warriors survive.

The only clubs that the Murdochs' and News helped were the Broncos and the Storm, the rest were left to fend for themselves.

The Rams and Mariners were never getting saved.

Well their was a serious opportunity for the Mariners to merge with the Chargers that would have saved both of them, but it fell through, and realistically speaking the Rams could have continued to survive had News not taken all their assets and given them to the Storm and then cut their funding.

The Mariners died because they couldn't agree to terms with the Chargers and the Rams suffered the same fate as the Reds and were wrapped up to give the Storm the best chance of being an instant success.

 

[Perth Red]

Sorry to hear that PR, but totally understandable mate.

The ARLC sucks massively, and really doesn't deserve loyalty from fans.

Bought myself a classic car and the money I would have spent on an NRL club I am building a race car for historic touring car racing.

 

[Perth Red]

ok some facts straight from the horses mouth (a Western Reds board member of the time I met).

Reds were adnitted conditional on paying travel and accomodation costs for first and reserve grad visiting teams as well as their own for away games. The board at the time felt they could generate enough sponsorship and gate takings to cover it and a sponsorship with ansett was supposed to help. Turned out WACA was both a dog of a ground for fans and a terrible landlord that stung for them for all sorts of extras. By end of year one (1995) the club could see it had big problems. by start of 96 SL was brewing and News Ltd moved in and offered a massive sponsorship deal (Sunday Times) for controlling power of the board. Feeling no other option the board areed. News ltd controlled board promptly signed with SL to the disgust of most the WA RL community, damage that virtually destroyed the game here for well over a decade.
By 97 News had the Reds in SL and the veneer of a national comp. When it came to peace talks and a culling of numbers for a combined club NEws wanted a Melbourne club at any cost, ARL wanted to maintain as much NSw clubs and loyal clubs as it could. compromise was the end of the Reds.

We gotfcked over all ends up and it continues today with the ARLC who would rather bail out sht house traditional clubs at the expense of growing the game in new markets taht sell out games. Such is the history of RL and the reason it is a tiny sport played in a few parts of the world.

 

[BuffaloRules]

I never said that they were paying travel costs in 96-97, however I believe that were in 96 but not in 97.

However by that time they thought that they were safe.

In the end it wasn't the travel costs that killed them it was Murdoch screwing them, but it was (mainly) expenses from the travel costs that put them on the path to signing up to SL in the first place.



Again I don't know whether or not the ARL pressured the Reds into paying the travel costs or if they offered to do so themselves, and nor do I think the ARL was intentionally setting them up to fail if they did pressure them into it.

The Perth Reds offered to pay the costs of the travel as part of their bid proposal which was announced a couple of years before joining the NRL.

I can't remember the exact time line, but they decided to join SL a couple of months into the 95 season.

Did they completely get their sums wrong that they were broke after a few months from paying the travel costs?

I just don't get this travel excuse that is always wheeled out to explain away the Reds joining SL and then going broke.

Edit- According to Wikipedia they signed with SL April 20 1995

 

[BuffaloRules]

. By end of year one (1995) the club could see it had big problems. by start of 96 SL was brewing and News Ltd moved in and offered a massive sponsorship deal (Sunday Times) for controlling power of the board. Feeling no other option the board areed.

They had decided to join SL a couple in months into the 1995 season - it may have been as early as April/May from memory.

Wasn't this before News Ltd had control of them?

Edit - according to Wikipedia they signed with SL April 20 1995.

 

[BuffaloRules]

We gotfcked over all ends up and it continues today with the ARLC who would rather bail out sht house traditional clubs at the expense of growing the game in new markets taht sell out games. Such is the history of RL and the reason it is a tiny sport played in a few parts of the world.

In hindsight the Reds got fckwd over by News Ltd.Every other existing club that joined SL survived as stand alone clubs except them.

The Reds fcked over the ARL the earliest opportunity they could, but to be fair they weren't the only ones.

 

[The Great Dane]

ok some facts straight from the horses mouth (a Western Reds board member of the time I met).

Reds were adnitted conditional on paying travel and accomodation costs for first and reserve grad visiting teams as well as their own for away games. The board at the time felt they could generate enough sponsorship and gate takings to cover it and a sponsorship with ansett was supposed to help. Turned out WACA was both a dog of a ground for fans and a terrible landlord that stung for them for all sorts of extras. By end of year one (1995) the club could see it had big problems. by start of 96 SL was brewing and News Ltd moved in and offered a massive sponsorship deal (Sunday Times) for controlling power of the board. Feeling no other option the board areed. News ltd controlled board promptly signed with SL to the disgust of most the WA RL community, damage that virtually destroyed the game here for well over a decade.
By 97 News had the Reds in SL and the veneer of a national comp. When it came to peace talks and a culling of numbers for a combined club NEws wanted a Melbourne club at any cost, ARL wanted to maintain as much NSw clubs and loyal clubs as it could. compromise was the end of the Reds.

We gotfcked over all ends up and it continues today with the ARLC who would rather bail out sht house traditional clubs at the expense of growing the game in new markets taht sell out games. Such is the history of RL and the reason it is a tiny sport played in a few parts of the world.

Some of the facts in that story are just wrong, the big one being that initially SL was going to launch in 1996 (before a court order prevented them from doing so) and all the SL clubs were signed on before the end of 1995 (if memory serves me correctly the Reds were one of the first to sign on to SL).

The sponsorship story also doesn't add up either, because the Reds would have signed to the SL before they signed the sponsorship deal with the Sunday times.

The way I remember the sponsorship thing going down is the Reds signed with the SL, which initially was going to be jersey sponsorship free (it didn't end up that way because News couldn't afford to keep it that way) so in doing so they had broken their contract with Cash Converters. Cash Converters was pissed off with this so pulled out and refused to pay their sponsorship money for the 96 season which left the Reds unable to provide for themselves. After SL being delayed for one year it was a real possibility that the Reds would go bankrupt without the sponsorship money from CC (despite the handsome check they had already received from News), so news stepped in and gave them a huge sponsorship deal that would see them through until SL could launch.

Also the disgust in the WA RL community also doesn't fit my recollections at all, most of the Reds fans at the time held no allegiance to the ARL and were happy to jump ship in favour of what was perceived as a better deal.
Most of the fans of all the SL clubs thought it was a good idea and were behind it.

It sounds to me like your friend the ex-broad member heavily sugarcoated the story.

 

[BuffaloRules]

Yep, if they are the recollections of an ex board member, I can see why they made so many poor decisions.