Where will SBW rank among the game's best ever second rowers?

[Loudstrat]

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...makes-a-mockery-of-league-20131202-2ykqc.html

Sonny Bill Williams' award makes a mockery of league

Date December 2, 2013 - 11:23AM Duncan Johnston




OPINION

Sonny Bill Williams struggled to have an impact in the World Cup final. Photo: AFP

Sonny Bill Williams isn't the best rugby league player in the world and the New Zealand Warriors should have done more to chase the services of master coach Tim Sheens.
These are a couple of points to emerge from the horribly lopsided World Cup final in Manchester yesterday where the Kiwis were embarrassed 34-2 by the Kangaroos.
The result and the associated performances of the individuals and teams made a mockery of the international awards that were handed out three days before the final.
How could Williams be judged the world's top player when he failed to match his game against the world's best team, chock-full of players that are arguably better than him?
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How could someone who initially didn't even want to play in the World Cup gain that ultimate accolade?
Williams' efforts in helping the Sydney Roosters to the NRL title on his return to league from rugby were truly impressive.
But he was hardly the star of the World Cup, even as New Zealand steamrolled questionable opponents on the way to the finals.
And when they got to the business end of the tournament he was overshadowed. England prop Sam Burgess was the best player of the semi-final - bar the last 30 seconds where Kiwis playmaker Shaun Johnson literally stole the show.
And you could nominate any number of Kangaroos players who outperformed Williams in a final that was horribly one-sided.
The last play of the nightmare finale for New Zealand ended with Williams coughing up a knock-on - hardly the stuff of a champion player in a defending-champion team.
Australia had so many classy players who played consistently throughout the year and the tournament, that had better claims to the top gong than Williams.
Try Johnathan Thurston or Cameron Smith for a couple of conductors who orchestrate an attack that is unparalleled in the game and throws up other candidates like Billy Slater, Cooper Cronk or try-machine Brett Morris.
The World Cup, desperate for credibility in a sport lacking any depth below Australia, New Zealand and England, seemed to bend over backwards to accommodate Williams.
But to dish out a gong like that so early was simply wrong.
The award should have been made after the final when proper perspective could have been brought to bear on the candidates.
And then there's Sheens, the canny coach who has the Kangaroos operating with the sort of dominance and precision normally associated with the world's best rugby union team, the All Blacks.
He oversaw a total performance yesterday, one which wiped out the shock loss to New Zealand in the final in 2008 with staggering ease.
Sheens got his big men to stand up to the much-heralded Kiwi pack. Once that was quickly achieved, the result was never in doubt because the Kangaroos attacking armoury out wide is in a class of its own.
Sheens' name was bandied about when the Warriors were waving an open chequebook around, hunting for a new coach a little over a year ago.
Having parted ways with the Wests Tigers where he landed the 2005 title on top of three championships with the Canberra Raiders, Sheens stood out as a class above anyone else who was available.
The Warriors should have done more to twist his arm to cross the Tasman.
Matt Elliot, their eventual choice, failed to deliver in his first year in charge with the Warriors' absence from the play-offs hugely disappointing.
Elliot will be granted breathing space for that as he settled in his methods, but there will be no such grace next year.
Apart from the glamour signing of Sam Tomkins, it's hard to see where the Warriors are going to make up ground with the sort of consistency that has become a hallmark of Sheens' teams at club and international level.
The Warriors, like the Kiwis, have a history of flattering to deceive. They are capable of brilliance, but it's often restricted to flashes rather than fluency.

:lol::lol::lol:

 

[Joker's Wild]

Yes but the Golden Boot award is judged on a players entire year, not just his form in the RLWC

Silly article

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

Ball hog. He's not playing f*cking under 6's. Playing out of position - what a gimp. There is nothing more frustrating for a half or pivot than a lumbering boneheaded forward getting in the way. As Warren Ryan says, it's a tuba in the string section.

The halves (well, Johnson) completely went missing. Someone had to step up, i.e. our best player. So he did. It was almost as if our big name player was showing 100% effort and desperation on the big stage, or something like that :shock:

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

plenty of kiwis were calling this side one of the strongest ever. sbw went missing for a player with all the hype surrounding him. i didnt even notice him in the first half and only noticed him in the 2nd half cos of all the mistakes he was making. but all the sbw knob gobblers will still claim he was bets on ground like the gf....

Can you explain what "went missing" means to you? Because if it has anything to do with how busy he was on the field, then you're clearly incorrect. If you "didn't notice him" that's entirely on you because as a matter of fact he got through a high quantity of work. I think failing to perceive something that as a matter of fact is happening right in front of your eyes often has something to do with bias.

 

[H.H]

$BW pretty much played his usual game. Keep off loading and hope one comes good. They are massive gambles and can put his team under all sorts of pressure, when one comes good and they score everyone forgets the previous six that were ineffective or turned the ball over. This time none came good and he looked poor, the fact the NZ props were equally ineffective showed up that he isn't good enough to carry a pack forward. Give me Burgess any day of week.

:crazy:

There was another Rooster who loved an offload once upon a time...he was pretty successful too...so much so that he was named in the front row in the Australian team of the century among countless other awards over a stellar career.

If you think his hit rate when offloading was 100% then you have no idea...rather he had plenty of errors in his game but he had some great coaches who were able to overlook these errors because of his undoubted match winning ability (similar to Sonny in this year's GF Loudy??)...and no this isn't a direct comparison, more an analogy.

As for Burgess, you can have him mate....he's made what, 1 final in the last 4 years (4 nations 2009 and lost)...Sonny makes a final in just about any comp he plays in...and any code.....and he'd have a pretty stellar winning rate in those finals too wouldn't he? More than enough to overcome one loss against a sh*t hot Aussie team.

Good luck with Slammin Sam son....

 

[Loudstrat]

The halves (well, Johnson) completely went missing. Someone had to step up, i.e. our best player. So he did. It was almost as if our big name player was showing 100% effort and desperation on the big stage, or something like that :shock:

Yeah, Darren Lockyer always took the first hitup when his front rowers went missing:crazy:

And William "standing up" really helped his side, didnt it! FFS Why didnt Thaiday play in the halves for brisbane last yer, they would have won the comp!

Are you really that f*cking thick??????

There was another Rooster who loved an offload once upon a time...he was pretty successful too...so much so that he was named in the front row in the Australian team of the century among countless other awards over a stellar career.

If you think his hit rate when offloading was 100% then you have no idea...rather he had plenty of errors in his game but he had some great coaches who were able to overlook these errors because of his undoubted match winning ability (similar to Sonny in this year's GF Loudy??)...and no this isn't a direct comparison, more an analogy.

Being raised around lead paint didnt do you much good did it. Comparing that hack to Beetson - who regularly held 3 defenders at bay then passed the ball to someone's chest 15 times a game is better than a dribbler who spills the ball backward to a player who has to pick it up and gets creamed.

I love how every Rooster in history gets suddenly downgraded to make the f*cking bus driver look good. Messenger and brown didnt play enough games, Beetson was a mistake-a-thon, Jennings never scored the try in the GF, Morley was soft, Fittler couldnt kick, Mini and Fairfax were slow, both Mullins' were plodders........

Funny the only Chooks player in history not tarnished by the SBW disciples if Mythcell Pearce :lol:

 

[Loudstrat]

The Roosters win the spoon next year - SBW will still be the best player ever but he had to "step up" because no one else did anything.

Yet he was the only player who did anything in the GF

See the logic there? Neither did I :crazy:

 

[TheDalek079]

posting an article claiming that club X should have signed Tim Sheens does not help support your argument

 

[H.H]

Yeah, Darren Lockyer always took the first hitup when his front rowers went missing:crazy:

And William "standing up" really helped his side, didnt it! FFS Why didnt Thaiday play in the halves for brisbane last yer, they would have won the comp!

Are you really that f*cking thick??????

Being raised around lead paint didnt do you much good did it. Comparing that hack to Beetson - who regularly held 3 defenders at bay then passed the ball to someone's chest 15 times a game is better than a dribbler who spills the ball backward to a player who has to pick it up and gets creamed.

I love how every Rooster in history gets suddenly downgraded to make the f*cking bus driver look good. Messenger and brown didnt play enough games, Beetson was a mistake-a-thon, Jennings never scored the try in the GF, Morley was soft, Fittler couldnt kick, Mini and Fairfax were slow, both Mullins' were plodders........

Funny the only Chooks player in history not tarnished by the SBW disciples if Mythcell Pearce :lol:

:lol: Very good. Not sure where to start on that one, so I won't bother. Logical debate isn't possible with you.

Your pathological hatred of the great man is both bizarre and intruiging at the same time.

Seriously, what's the go?

 

[TheDalek079]

maybe Loudy was dating Candice when Sonny Bill banged her in the toilets?

 

[Porkie]

Yes but the Golden Boot award is judged on a players entire year, not just his form in the RLWC

Silly article

He has never won the golden boot. He got the RLIF award.

Silly post.

 

[vikingstorm]

Sonny Bill Williams is a great player, but his status has perhaps been tainted by the impressions people have of him. Many see him as a mercenary, although he does talk a good game with all that Muslim nonsense going on.
He is though very talented and ideally suited to League. He is also good at Union, but the games remain strategically different no matter which was you analyse it.- His status as a legend will never be achieved unless he commits himself to either league or union or boxing or tennis or whatever sport he feels he can put himself in the shop window

 

[Captain Apollo]

Sonny Bill Williams isn't the best rugby league player in the world and the New Zealand Warriors should have done more to chase the services of Master coach Tim Sheens.

Sorry but quoting that article with the bit in the first sentence completely undermines your credibility. Tim Sheens, Master Coach?! :lol:

 

[Loudstrat]

posting an article claiming that club X should have signed Tim Sheens does not help support your argument

Sheens masterminded a 34-2 win against one of the best ever Kiwi forward packs including the best player ever - I'd say that was a good effort f you believe the SBW spin - dont you?

Besides, the Warriors are not really renown for signing the elite coaches, are they? Then again, if SBW is the best forward ever, Bluey McClennan and Matt Elliot would sh*t all over Jack Gibson - cant wait for the "Gibson's fur coats were sh*t" excuses. :lol:

The fact that a Kiwi wrote the article is ignored - a bit like SBW's form, the Jennings try, the history of Beetson, Price, Raper etc :lol:

I cant wait to hear your take on world history. What will that entail? The f*cking Samoan Empire? PNG winning WWII? Brett Finch the first man in space?

 

[Loudstrat]

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...tings-for-world-cup-final-20131201-2yj4x.html

AUSTRALIA PLAYER RATINGS

Fullback: Billy Slater - Scored twice, outstanding under the high ball, ended a difficult tour on a high with a superb display. Rating: 8.
Winger: Brett Morris - Scored two tries and was lucky to avoid serious injury with his first when he collided heavily with an advertising board in the ridiculously small end-goal area. Rating: 7.
Centre: Greg Inglis - Quiet by his immaculate high standards but kept the dangerous Dean Whare firmly in check. Rating: 7.
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Centre: Jarryd Hayne - Grew as the tournament progressed and impressive again after shaking off a heavy knock to the head early in the game when tackling Simon Mannering. Set up Morris's second try with a huge breakaway run. Rating: 8.
Winger: Darius Boyd - Set up two tries with a wobbly kick and a shaky pass, but always solid in defence and a threat going forward. Rating: 7.
Five-eighth: Johnathan Thurston - Simply outstanding and involved in everything. The Kiwis struggled to contain his kicking game as he dictated the pace of the game on his way to becoming the Kangaroos' record points scorer. Rating: 9.
Halfback: Cooper Cronk - Dovetails so well with Queensland teammate Thurston, scored a try with a superb take and only denied a second by a brilliant piece of defending from Issac Luke. Rating: 8.
Prop: Matt Scott- Had a huge opening 20 minutes to put the Kangaroos on the front foot against a massive Kiwi pack. Rating: 8.
Hooker: Cameron Smith - Did little to suggest he's not the finest player in the world. Leads from the front and his imperious kicking game was at times a joy to behold. Rating: 8.
Prop: James Tamou - Strong running game and worked well in defence. Rating: 7.
Second-row: Greg Bird - A big occasion player who outshone Sonny Bill Williams. Rating: 8.
Second-row: Sam Thaiday - Ran hard and played his part in a dominant performance from the Australian pack. Rating: 7.
Lock: Paul Gallen - Put a difficult 2013 behind him to become a World Cup winner with a big-hearted and hard-working performance. Rating: 8.
Interchange:
Andrew Fifita - A few big runs and continued his progression as one of the best props in the NRL. Rating: 7.
Josh Papalii - Did well and will be around the rep scene for a very long time to come. Rating:7.
Daly Cherry-Evans - Didn't get much chance to have a major impact but was steady and controlled when he was involved. Rating: 7.
Corey Parker - No frills, goes about his business in a disciplined manner the perfect player to have off the bench. Rating: 7.
NEW ZEALAND PLAYER RATINGS

Fullback: Kevin Locke - Struggled to impose himself and picked off all to easy under the high ball by the Kangaroos. Rating: 5.
Winger: Roger Tuivasa-Sheck - The Sydney Rooster with the dancing feet never really got the chance to show his attacking prowess after limping out of the game in the eigth minute with a leg injury . Rating: 4.
Centre: Dean Whare - Rarely involved, worked hard to make things happen but to no avail having moved to the wing early in the game. Rating: 6.
Centre: Bryson Goodwin - Struggled in defence against the Aussie onslaught after, not a game to remember for the South Sydney man. Rating: 5.
Winger: Manu Vatuvei - Almost scored a try just before halftime but faded as the game went on after a strong start. Rating: 6.
Five-eighth: Kieran Foran - Ran the ball well and never stopped trying to make things happen. The Kiwis' best player. Rating: 7.
Halfback: Shaun Johnson - The semi-final hero failed to hit the heights of Wembley. Scored his side's only points with a first-half penalty. Rating: 6.
Prop: Jared Waerea-Hargreaves - Failed to dominate against the Aussies' big men but never stopped trying and did his fair share of work in defence. Rating: 6.
Hooker: Issac Luke - Produced a stunning piece of defending to hold up Cooper Cronk to deny him a try. Worked hard around the ruck. Rating 6.
Prop: Jesse Bromwich - Made some early inroads with a blocking run but, like the rest of his team, failed to build on it as the game progressed. Rating: 6.
Second-row: Sonny Bill Williams - Newly-crowed international player of the year couldn't find a way to lift his side. Worked hard but had a rare off-day. Rating: 6.
Second-row: Simon Mannering - Tried to galvanise his side, but the skipper found it difficult to make an impression. Rating: 6.
Lock: Elijah Taylor - Worked hard as always and tackled his heart out to no avail. Rating: 6.
Interchange:
Alex Glenn - Moved to the centres after Tuivasa-Sheck and struggled to stem to green and gold tide on his side of the field. Rating: 5.
Frank-Paul Nuuausala - A few bulldozing runs in the first half and made one delicious offload to Foran but didn't maintain it over the 80 minutes. Rating: 6.
Ben Matulino - A big talent but never really got the chance to show what he can do. Rating: 6.
Sam Kasiano - The Canterbury giant struggled with the pace at times and was outgunned by the Aussie front row. Rating: 5.

SBW rated worse than EVERY Australian.

SBW rated worse than Foran. Didnt Foran go missing? Didnt SBW have to step up?

How long do you geniuss intend on going on with this pointless wankfest?? :lol::lol:

 

[Tommy Smith]

I think the only one going on with anything is you.

This thread only gets regurgitated when a butthurt hater has a big cry by micro analysing every game he plays.

To which we need only respond with:

Easiest argument we'll ever win.

Now go away and create another SBW vs Inglis thread and fail once more. The people of LU spoke emphatically on that one.

 

[Captain Apollo]

Sheens masterminded a 34-2 win against one of the best ever Kiwi forward packs including the best player ever - I'd say that was a good effort f you believe the SBW spin - dont you?

Besides, the Warriors are not really renown for signing the elite coaches, are they? Then again, if SBW is the best forward ever, Bluey McClennan and Matt Elliot would sh*t all over Jack Gibson - cant wait for the "Gibson's fur coats were sh*t" excuses. :lol:

The fact that a Kiwi wrote the article is ignored - a bit like SBW's form, the Jennings try, the history of Beetson, Price, Raper etc :lol:

I cant wait to hear your take on world history. What will that entail? The f*cking Samoan Empire? PNG winning WWII? Brett Finch the first man in space?

You are talking a load of crap. You are justifying Sheens as "Master Coach" based on one game :crazy:I won't bother wasting my time on the rest of your comments as my parents told me not to argue with idiots.

 

[Loudstrat]

Its not my argument to justify dimwit. You lot were claiming that SBW ws the worlds best backrower based on the fct that Elliott and McLennan were better coaches than Sheens :lol:

 

[Loudstrat]

So according to Tommy Smith's logic -

Brett Finch - best 5/8 of all time:

Matt Orford - best half in history -

George Rose - All time greatest front rower....

 

[Porkie]

The people of LU spoke emphatically on that one.

:lol:

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