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Who replaces Cappy?

jaseg

Juniors
Messages
2,274
Errrr..... What? Have you seen Robson play first grade since the dragons game? I haven't.

I think he meant the Robson's best game part... which I'd say is true, he had the (very) occasional good game at the Sharks too. Doesn't make him a good player at NRL level.

I have seen him play reserve grade since getting dropped though - and get outshone by both Hingano & Lino. I can't see any logical reason for him to come back, beyond loose bs buzzword (at least in this particular case) answers like 'experience' and 'structure'. Which means Cappy will probably name him to the team after he runs SJ into the ground rather than give the guy who is clearly injured a rest.
 

Meth

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
35,742
I wasn't paying attention during the pre-game team lists. Once I started watching I assumed Tui was out injured.

Imagine my f**king surprise in the 60th minute.

Yep- say what you want, but Lolohea should be on the park for 80 mins if fit...especially with blokes like Maumalo and Wright running around FFS
 

Penrose Warrior

First Grade
Messages
9,481
Here's my latest Andrew McFadden/Jono Wright rant, I seem to come up with one of these every fortnight.

I cannot believe the stupidity of the side McFadden put out on Saturday night. If Tui's struggling a bit, so be it. Maybe Fus is the better option short and long-term, I'm not disputing that. To my knowledge Fus has played one full game at FB and one half game there (v Dogs)? Even if I'm wrong there, it's not my point. How in the f**king world is a combination of 1. Fusitua 2. Wright better than 1. Lolohea 2. Fusitua? Isn't that the relevant point? Fus was dynamite on the weekend with his running game but the competitive advantage you may gain is completely negated by the absolute pathetic performance that Wright put in. And I don't blame him, he's not trying to be crap. That pass he dropped, he had absolutely every right to catch. Our coach is piss weak for throwing Ayshford under a bus. Then the Leutele try before HT where he went way outside his limitations, and let's not forget the intercept that I reckon more than 80% of the NRL's winger would've caught and scored. This guy makes a living out of being a plodder, and McFadden keeps picking him.

Then we have this absurd back on the bench crap. And we're doing it because our halfback has a niggle? If he walks onto that field, he is fit to play. End of story. If he doesn't kick, fair enough. But if he's picked, he should be able to do all his core responsibilities. We've done it so many times this year and no other side is doing it. Given we're 10th or 11th or whatever, I'm picking it's not best practice.

I feel awful for saying this, but I'm actually near a point where I'm actually torn between this team winning from now on. If we limp into 8th (which is 9th) then drop out of the finals and say compete with a side like Canberra or the Dogs etc in that final, McFadden probably keeps his job. And that makes me ill that it could happen. It's a shitty place as a fan and I don't want to be here, but this guy in charge is not our future. I'm so certain about that. As it was with the 8 game losing streak last year, at the end of it I was actually happy for us to cop spankings if it got us closer to a decent coach. I'll say again it is a horrible way to be for someone who considers themselves a fervent fan...but here's where I am.
 

Rich102

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
11,764
Know where you are coming from PW.

However, while I am certain Cappy isn't the future, why are the players so supportive of him?
Is it because, with him there, they know their holidays will start a month early?
 

Penrose Warrior

First Grade
Messages
9,481
Know where you are coming from PW.

However, while I am certain Cappy isn't the future, why are the players so supportive of him?
Is it because, with him there, they know their holidays will start a month early?

And in turn I know exactly where you're at - but does spirited performance=backing the coach? I'm not able to say either way. There was a visible and audible refocus and returning of hearts after the bye. Was that because McFadden coached the shit out of them? Or was that because senior players got together and said something to the effect of 'this guy isn't a great coach, but we know how to play footy - let's show heart'. And that heart has kept us in the last two games, defensively. We didn't win v the Roosters or v the Sharks because we had anything magical with ball in hand. Our systems were good (anyone bagging Justin Morgan right now?!) we trusted guys in and outside us and ultimately we showed heart.

I dunno, to me he's still the same battler who has, and continues to, deliver some absolutely baffling coaching decisions and hasn't made a blind bit of difference to what our halves or our ability to turn the scoreboard over.
 

Rich102

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
11,764
Yeah. Reminds me a bit of the end of the Cleary era.
As I recall Cleary wasn't offered any more than a one year extension and signed with the Panthers and all of a sudden the shackles came off the team and they started to play good football. Remember Cleary wasn't offered more than a one year extension because the team wasn't performing.
Team dynamics is a funny thing. I am sure a lot of a successful NRL coaches job is managing the team rather than just coaching them.
From the outside, just watching him, Cappy projects no positive vibes at all.
 

jaseg

Juniors
Messages
2,274
God that was a weird season. Three good sized runs back to back to back in the middle of the year (WWWWWLLLL - Cleary given a release from final year - WWWW). Then the finals run after getting stomped in week 1...

Anyway, Cappy's rubbish, consistently makes bad decisions and rides on luck, a situation out of his control (Warriors unwilling to sack another coach immediately for external reasons) and apparent likeability.
 

JJ

Immortal
Messages
32,745
Anyway, Cappy's rubbish, consistently makes bad decisions and rides on luck, a situation out of his control (Warriors unwilling to sack another coach immediately for external reasons) and apparent likeability.

He is, undoubtedly...

Has there been anyone hyped to the same degree as both a player and a coach, and been a comparative failure at both?

I recall the Macs (McFadden and McLinden) lauded as the next Daley/Stuart (stupid of course)...

And then the Warriors immediately extending him, and making loose comparisons to Bennett and Bellamy as a 'legacy' type coach
 

Leber

Bench
Messages
3,959
Never been a fan of a back on the bench. Although....

I think maumalo would make a good number 14. I know he's played all his first grade on the wing, but most of his Games in the under 20s were in the second row. He could come on as a bartering ram back rower.

Alternatively, if there was an injury to the backs or someone needed a rest, they could rejig it.
 

Penrose Warrior

First Grade
Messages
9,481
God that was a weird season. Three good sized runs back to back to back in the middle of the year (WWWWWLLLL - Cleary given a release from final year - WWWW). Then the finals run after getting stomped in week 1...

Anyway, Cappy's rubbish, consistently makes bad decisions and rides on luck, a situation out of his control (Warriors unwilling to sack another coach immediately for external reasons) and apparent likeability.

What are your feelings in terms of this guy still being in charge next year? I feel like we're a 50/50 shot at making the finals, in which case 100% he stays (even though it could be 9th and bundled out). Even 9th, I feel like there's a dead-set chance he's still here. It scares the f**k out of me.
 

TheDMC

Bench
Messages
3,419
What are your feelings in terms of this guy still being in charge next year? I feel like we're a 50/50 shot at making the finals, in which case 100% he stays (even though it could be 9th and bundled out). Even 9th, I feel like there's a dead-set chance he's still here. It scares the f**k out of me.

Regardless of Cappy's performance, I just don't see any point replacing him until a really good replacement can be found. Counterproductive to bring some other potential dud in just on the off chance they are a rare diamond in the rough.

It would be interesting to see how people's perceptions of Cappy are at the end of the season if we play good tough footy from here on in, make the finals, and go deep or win a couple.

Perhaps we can look at coaching in three key elements, maybe in this order of importance:

1. Getting the team playing for each other, 100% effort for 80 minutes, week after week. (attitude/professionalism) -- and yes caveat is player responsibility in this too but no doubt the coach has a major role in facilitating it.

2. Tactics of the team -- the style of footy they play generally, and the adaptability of this style to suit different opposition and different stage/situation of games.

3. Team selection - game 13, bench players, and use of the interchange.

On point 1, Cappy hadn't delivered but may have turned the corner in this regard - at least a noticeable improvement the past month. The final 10 weeks will be telling.

On point 2, I haven't heard too many complaints about the style of footy we have been playing, and at times it has adapted. Generally seems to be okay mix of creativity and structure. (I would like to see us go wider earlier to get out of our defensive zone than banging up the middle so much, and better options at end of attacking sets, though that seems to have improved of late).

On point 3, this is where the Cappy hate is strong. Very strong. And rightly so.



I recall, perhaps wrongly, that the major complaint with Clearly was tactics - we played staid boring football, smothering the warrior's natural creativity. Bomb to Manu did everyone's head in. Not many complained loudly when Clearly was let go. It was only that crazy run to the finals in 2011 and rose tinted glasses of 'making the finals' (but not being a contender) most years that in retrosight or hindspect many wish he had never been let go.

So, the way I see it, if this potentially big improvement in attitude/professionalism continues and there are no major issues with our tactics then are we really stuck with an abysmal coach just because we are all armchair selectors and he is random as f**k on this element, even though it is probably the least important (still important, but just not as much as the other two).

End of the day results matter - and if you fail majorly as a coach in any of those three aspects then your results will be poor. But I would suggest with our roster, okay to good tactics, and plenty of heart we will win more than we lose despite some shit selections and bench use.

Selections and bench use may be improved more easily than the other 2 aspects too.

Sorry for the ramble. To answer the question. At this point in time I would be gutted if McFadden remains our coach in 2017. But come the end of the season, I may well have changed my mind depending on how we perform from here on in. Either way, the worse case to me is replacing him with YET ANOTHER DUD.
 

Penrose Warrior

First Grade
Messages
9,481
All good points, enjoyed reading it.

I agree that an appointment should not be made until a suitable candidate is found. Lord knows that shot us in the arse in 2012 then 2013, then 2014...HOWEVER, the signs have been there since August last year that this guy might not be up to it. So if Jim Doyle hasn't picked up his phone and at least attempted to round up candidates, let alone found one or two, then I'd be deeply disappointed and I'd suggest he's being negligent in his job as CEO. If there's no one ready to go by pre-season in November then either we are such a horrible proposition that no one wants the job or Doyle has shown blind faith. I'm also very strong that 8th and out shouldn't constitute keeping his job either.

If we came flying home with a wet sail, then sure there's a consideration that he might stay on. That would suggest there's more than the recent mid-year resurgence we see in all previous unsuccessful years. I can't comment tactically because I'm not a league guy in terms of on-field strategy, formation etc. But I know very well having watched a truckload of league that his selection and use of the bench is absolutely horrid. Does that change in a set period of time? It hasn't yet and he's been in charge for 2 years and around 60 games. In fact it's probably worse.
 

Meth

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
35,742
Never been a fan of a back on the bench. Although....

I think maumalo would make a good number 14. I know he's played all his first grade on the wing, but most of his Games in the under 20s were in the second row. He could come on as a bartering ram back rower.

Alternatively, if there was an injury to the backs or someone needed a rest, they could rejig it.

Yeah, I think Maumalo is the kind of back that perhaps would make a bit of sense on the bench, whether he plays four in or on the edge. In saying that, we tried this with Hurrell and he offered no real impact off the bench and ended up being a waste of a spot. Would Maumalo be any different? Sure, there's a chance that the downsides to his game would be minimised- but that's a fairly negative rationale, isn't it?
 

vvvrulz

Coach
Messages
13,625
I recall, perhaps wrongly, that the major complaint with Clearly was tactics - we played staid boring football, smothering the warrior's natural creativity. Bomb to Manu did everyone's head in. Not many complained loudly when Clearly was let go. It was only that crazy run to the finals in 2011 and rose tinted glasses of 'making the finals' (but not being a contender) most years that in retrosight or hindspect many wish he had never been let go.

Don't agree with this, are we dissing Cleary and his 'boring football' again? I reckon this is the biggest myth of this room. Tactically Cleary was different to Anderson, I'll give you that. It was structure first and flair later. But boring? There was nothing boring about having a team that actually competed seriously, some of those playoff matches were easily the best in our history. Were we the best? No. Did we over achieve a few times with golden runs? Yep sure. But beggars can't be choosers, give me that over todays team any day.

A bunch of people were happy to see him go, and embraced Bluey as our savior who is going to take us to premierships because "Cleary will never win one". I sure as hell was not one of them, the hard fact is that under his tenure we got the most consistent results (Anderson a close second). There is nothing rose tinted about the fact that during his time we were good enough to make the 8 and we've been horse crap ever since he left.

He gave us a grand finalist team of almost entire grassroots, and our club butchered it.
 

TheDMC

Bench
Messages
3,419
Don't agree with this, are we dissing Cleary and his 'boring football' again? I reckon this is the biggest myth of this room. Tactically Cleary was different to Anderson, I'll give you that. It was structure first and flair later. But boring? There was nothing boring about having a team that actually competed seriously, some of those playoff matches were easily the best in our history. Were we the best? No. Did we over achieve a few times with golden runs? Yep sure. But beggars can't be choosers, give me that over todays team any day.

A bunch of people were happy to see him go, and embraced Bluey as our savior who is going to take us to premierships because "Cleary will never win one". I sure as hell was not one of them, the hard fact is that under his tenure we got the most consistent results (Anderson a close second). There is nothing rose tinted about the fact that during his time we were good enough to make the 8 and we've been horse crap ever since he left.

He gave us a grand finalist team of almost entire grassroots, and our club butchered it.

I wasn't dissing Cleary I was merely recalling what many people were saying at the time and the complaints they had.
 

vvvrulz

Coach
Messages
13,625
I wasn't dissing Cleary I was merely recalling what many people were saying at the time and the complaints they had.

Fair enough, and you're right people were saying that.

It's just a recurring theme that annoys me.
 

jaseg

Juniors
Messages
2,274
I will say one thing about Cleary that's descriptive rather than evaluative - he seems an extremely conservative coach.

It made sense during much of his tenure here, where he had an unbalanced roster with significant holes... and was left with the likes of Rovelli to plug them. At the Panthers he had a roster with Cartwright, Peachey, Segeyaro, DWZ, Moylan, RCG, Whare etc, but had them playing fairly conservative footy (as young fellas too, that's impressive). We see this year at Penrith the shackles come off a little.

One thing that isn't up for debate (and this is evaluative) - Cleary is effective. Got the Panthers to within a game of the grand final despite a horrendous injury toll... no shame in not being able to repeat the trick when the next year it was his 1, 6 & 9 that all went down for long periods. Got some pretty average rosters of ours to the finals too. Give him a half decent (not necessarily good, just half decent) roster without getting totally destroyed by injuries and you can probably expect finals. How many coaches can do that?
 

Meth

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
35,742
I think Cleary worked out ok for the Warriors because of his conservativeness and the counter balance that it brought to our natural temperament. Sure, it went too far sometimes...but I'd rather see a Warriors side not miss tackles and win than push offloads and lose.
 

Leber

Bench
Messages
3,959
Yeah, I think Maumalo is the kind of back that perhaps would make a bit of sense on the bench, whether he plays four in or on the edge. In saying that, we tried this with Hurrell and he offered no real impact off the bench and ended up being a waste of a spot. Would Maumalo be any different? Sure, there's a chance that the downsides to his game would be minimised- but that's a fairly negative rationale, isn't it?

Maumalo has a background in the forwards whereas hurrell didn't. That may make a difference.
 
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