Who replaces Cappy?

[jaseg]

Was talking about this to a guy I know who generally seems to know lots of detail about junior/reserve leagues and just takes a frankly stupid amount of interest in this stuff (and that's coming from me) and he told me to shoot over some names and he'd dot point some stuff about each. What he sent back wasn't so much dot points as paragraphs but I'll paste here... feel free to point out any errors if you can find them. I'd love to troll him. There's some Kiwis in there but I can't see any of them being a serious contender.




David Kidwell - coached 1 year of 20s @ Souths (to 2010 GF), assistant at Storm (2011-2013) and then Tigers (2014-onwards). also assistant for Kiwis from 2014.

Stacey Jones - seems promising but the least experienced at a decent level, and for the 2nd year in a row his reserves team look to be crumbling like their seniors at the end of the season.

Stephen Kearney - good (but definitely not perfect) with NZ national team, bad at Parra but it was a horrible roster and the club in general is a basket case, defensive coach for Broncos, has done same at Storm.

Garth Brennan - coached Knights 20s (2010-11) to first ever finals appearance (2011); also doubled as NRL assistant during this period. coached Panthers 20s (2012-13) & NSW cup (2014-15) to premierships in both comps (2013 NYC, 2014 NSW cup), finished equal 1st in 2015 also. current NRL assistant coach at Panthers.

Ben/Shane Walker - assistants to Glenn Lazarus at Ipswich (2009-10) - missed finals both years (finished dead last in 2010), took over head coach role (2011-current), making finals every year, winning grand final (and state championship) in 2015. currently have a win rate of 57% at Ipswich. sitting outside final placings for the first time this year (with a 10-12 w/l record) after losing their 7 best players from last year.

Geoff Toovey - part of Manly coaching staff from 2004-2011, taking over NRL head coach role from 2012-15, finishing with a win rate of 58.1%, going out in week 3, the grand final and week 2 in first 3 years before an injury-hit final year saw the team finish 9th.

Ivan Cleary - assistant roles at Roosters (2003) and Warriors (2004-05), taking over Warriors NRL coaching job (2006-11), finishing with a win rate of 50%, making finals all but 2 years (06 due to cap penalty and 09), finishing with a grand final loss. took over at Penrith (2012-2015), finished with a win rate of 44.9%, making finals in 2014 only (injury filled 2015). both times inherited an absolute mess of a team and turned the ship around.

Justin Morgan - coached Toulouse to challenge cup semis (2005). Took over Hull KR during the season (2005-2011) for end of '05 which saw them just miss out on promotion. Promoted to super league the next year, and made finals in his final 3 years at the club, finishing with a win rate of 56%, which drops to 48% in the super league. worked as assistant coach at the Raiders (2012-13) and Storm (2014-15) before coming back to the Warriors in 2016.

Michael Maguire - assistant at Raiders (2002-03) and Storm (2004-09), including coaching Storm while Bellamy was at Origin in 2008-09. took Wigan role (2010-11), winning super league and minor premiership (2010), then 2nd and semi-finals (2011) - finished with 75.4% win rate. Moved to Souths (2012-current) where he has a 57.9% win rate, winning the grand final (2014).

 

[Penrose Warrior]

would the super softly spoken ploynesian players we have adopt to mcguires in your face style
i dont think so

Right...so who wouldn't take to that style? Anyone we can't afford to lose? None that I can think of. Maguire would be the best coach available, having won a premiership 2 years ago. So they can suck it up. Maybe his arrival would remove that culture of 'we don't want to be yelled at or worked too hard' from our club. Great. Let's sign him up now.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

All this talk about not wanting Cleary because he won't win us a GF? WTF? If he gets us to the finals we are in for a chance like every other team. He got us there most times we can suggest maybe this time we could get the likes of Morgan and other mentors in to help with the finals series. Proven people from the past coach or player to help assist Cleary. I think ppl are harsh saying he will never get a team to win a GF. He almost won one with this mob before we weren't too far off. Madge is my favorite of the lot though Cleary at 2nd.

Yeah I agree 100% with this. We got to a GF and ultimately we were beaten on the day, by a very, very good Manly team in the midst of an incredible dynasty (which doesn't get talked up enough, I believe). If you're there on the day of the big dance, you're a chance - and we were for 40-50 min. And people forget that Ivan got a squad there when they all knew he was out the door at season's end. He could've put the cue in the rack, the players could've. They didn't. They played for him and his tactics were obviously great. Just think about how many times in this competition, players give up or hit slumps when they know the coach will wear it.

My summary of the candidates:

IVAN: In my opinion, the man for the job. Knows our culture, knows SJ/Manu/Simon the other long-termers and has got the best out of every one of them. Performed 2x rebuild/resurrections with us and Penrith which took rock bottom 15th placed clubs to prelim finals in their third years. Has openly spoken recently about a passion to get back into coaching, will have been keeping himself mentally on the ball. Negatives, hasn't won a comp - but do we get to choose from anyone who has? Finals in 4 of his 6 years and a GF will do me at Mt Smart. But I think having been here before and now resettled in Sydney, he'll prefer to stay and there are jobs (Dragons, Bunnies, maybe Tigers next year) possibly available. I think he'll end up at St George.

TOOVEY: Absolutely knifed in the back ala Ivan when dumped. 58% winning record, a trip to the GF and two other finals appearances in 4 years. Obviously can coach, did inherit a club in incredible shape (at least on-field) but kept them going until a down year in 2015. Was a club legend which would've helped, he's not as revered here. My issue with him is he's never had to reshape and rebuild a squad. He won't inherit a premiership-winning, buoyant, professional squad here. That's pretty much all he knew at Manly from 07 to 14. So I've got reservations as to whether his hot-headed methods and inexperience at dealing with what we have here will work. Still, massive upgrade on what we have (as are all the names I'l mention)

MAGUIRE: I'd as happily have him as I would Ivan. Tough man who could possibly turn the 'let's not work too hard' culture around over here. Won a premiership 2 years ago. Worked under Bellamy. Ticks most of the boxes. There's obviously going to be this 'our Polynesian guys won't respond to him' and I say if so, those guys can find a new club and a softer coach. If available (which contract says he isn't), then we take him. Would need to bring/find another huge presence in the forwards as he is used to coaching dominance up front. Also an advantage that Reynolds (and to a lesser extent Keary) all became NRL-class under him.

KEARNEY: Ticks all the boxes in terms of worked under Bellamy, Bennett and has a fair record with Kiwis...yet no one wants to touch him it seems. I reckon the clubs would rather wait for someone else to take him, then take a stand back and see approach. The issue for me is that he doesn't seem like a particularly great bloke, not a father figure or strong mentor like the top coaches are. I know the Kiwis guys liked him but that started out more as a mate than a leader. Not for us.

KIDWELL: I lost all respect for him when he was seen off on holiday with Farah last year (?) when old Wobblie was in the throes of knifing Taylor just after seeing off Potter. That again speaks to me on the integrity of the guy. Again, worked under the super coaches but I reckon it's the same as Kearney, they want to see him as head coach of another club before jumping in.

MORGAN: I'm a fan. Again, worked under a super coach and had the Storm defence absolutely flying. I feel like he's done great things with ours too, when our attitude has been right. Will be a successful NRL coach in the future but I don't think it'l be with us. Unfortunately follows an untested, below average coach and is blackmarked in the eyes of the public by being on that staff. Would have to have a bloody significant following from the players and CEO to get the job, because the PR job would be tough to sell. But has success behind him and I reckon a St George etc would be well served to get him.

BRENNAN: Don't know enough about him, but I do know that Gould talked him up something chronic then preferred Anthony Griffin over him when push came to shove. So that says to me something. Real history of success as jaseg pointed out but as above, risky as a non-proven NRL coach. We just can't go for one of those, and I don't think Doyle will replace McFudd with one anyway.

WALKER BROS: Innovative and perhaps the next big things but not for me. Their style is no way proven to work at NRL level, a totally different ball game to NSW Cup. And if they're not successful this year, that proves their method might not be quite perfected yet. Clubs don't like experiments.

STACEY: Another unproven who won't get the job. I feel like Stacey is going to spend his life as an assistant, which is fine. Done an OK job with our ressies but nothing that says 'pick me pick me'. And as a club legend, you'd maybe think if he was an outstanding coach that mana + coaching chops would = bigger success but it hasn't. Perhaps would be a good assistant to Maguire/Ivan.

 

[Rich102]

The more I think about this the more I am becoming convinced that we need somebody from outside with no links to the current players.
If he, or she?, sets standards for the players and they don't meet them - he stays, they go. If he demands a hard nosed culture and players don't like it - he stays, they go.
There is something inherently wrong with the culture at this club. Time for this to change.
Maybe it's time for some of the crowd favorite clowns to be transferred to another circus.

 

[Skinner]

The more I think about this the more I am becoming convinced that we need somebody from outside with no links to the current players.
If he, or she?, sets standards for the players and they don't meet them - he stays, they go. If he demands a hard nosed culture and players don't like it - he stays, they go.
There is something inherently wrong with the culture at this club. Time for this to change.
Maybe it's time for some of the crowd favorite clowns to be transferred to another circus.

Yes, I believe you are absolutely correct Rich. The more I think about it, the more
I think the club needs a change manager rather than a straight coach. Every
Coach has to be a people manager, but this mob needs more than just that.

The only missing component for me is the "who".

 

[Matua]

The more I think about this the more I am becoming convinced that we need somebody from outside with no links to the current players.
If he, or she?, sets standards for the players and they don't meet them - he stays, they go. If he demands a hard nosed culture and players don't like it - he stays, they go.
There is something inherently wrong with the culture at this club. Time for this to change.
Maybe it's time for some of the crowd favorite clowns to be transferred to another circus.

Clearly you want the Warriors to hire Mark Hammett then, he'll clear out the club quick smart and improve the 'culture'. Sure the team won't win shit but the culture will be better.

I guess one might ask whether he has any idea how to coach league? But, he had no idea how to coach rugby either and that didn't hinder his career prospects.

Mark Hammett - come on down.

 

[JJ]

Sure as shit the team doesn't win now...

To be fair the Hurricanes do win now, perhaps in part because of, or in spite of, Hammett

Not sure why come are so "oh, think of the players" - the group has achieved sweet f**k all, so if they have their feathers ruffled, where's the problem?

 

[JJ]

'our Polynesian guys won't respond to him'

yeah, I love that crap too - as a group who exactly have they responded to? Anderson and Cleary for a season or two each...

We start poorly, have a good mid season and end poorly - does anyone seriously believe someone like Madge would do worse?

 

[SpaceMonkey]

There's no special magic formula to dealing with Poly players beyond not being a Mick Watson level f**kwit.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

yeah, I love that crap too - as a group who exactly have they responded to? Anderson and Cleary for a season or two each...

We start poorly, have a good mid season and end poorly - does anyone seriously believe someone like Madge would do worse?

The tail should never be allowed to wag the dog. I'd love someone like Maguire to come in, with full reign to break some skulls and those who can't hack it, can go find something else to pay the bills. You can't argue with the pedigree of someone who broke something as significant as Souths' premiership drought.

Anyway, this idea that Polynesians are softly-spoken gentle giants is getting as old as the jungle ball/big forwards crap. For anyone who's seen them in public, they're not softly-spoken at all - they're very confident young men. Problem is (and I speak of all players, not Polynesian) that there's an inherent laziness and lack of desire to do what it takes in our squad/culture.

 

[Cold Roses]

Problem is (and I speak of all players, not Polynesian) that there's an inherent laziness and lack of desire to do what it takes in our squad/culture.

This really is the case. I posted a couple of years ago about an interview with Joe Gulavao when he retired. He openly stated that in his younger years with the Warriors he actually just used to do the minimum required to get by. It wasn't until he got into more professional set ups at Penrith and Manly that he realised that he had to work hard because no one was going to hand him anything based on potential. They just didn't take any crap in those set ups.

He pretty much said that the whole culture at the Warriors was just a matey 'how good is this' lifestyle that the younger players loved.

Attitudes like that have to start somewhere. While we may have had more than a few professionals along the way, the whole culture of the club isn't up to the standard of the successful Australian clubs.

Not much has ever changed imo.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

It's largely a factor of being a one team town with locally developed talent I think. The Cows had the same problem until recently (and likely still would if it wasn't for the Thurston factor). The Storm don't because they're all pulled together from different areas, so they don't have a complacent attitude because they've supposedly the best players in town all their careers, and neither do the Sydney guys because there's constant rivalry between the different local clubs.
But it's something that can be overcome with a good coaching setup to knock that attitude out of them.

 

[JJ]

Could be something in that, for sure.
Was going to mention Penrith as they're not really Sydney

I think strong leadership, principally from the coach is key - perhaps Paul Green is not getting enough credit there (Thurston was around for a while prior), and Bennett obviously at Brisbane, and indeed Furner/Bennett in the earlier Canberra years, Bellamy, and at Penrith Willey/Gould, then Lang and now Gould again...

As we've established despite this, the coach has to understand the culture nonsense, our two best coaches have been Anderson and Cleary, and our worst the Kiwis...

 

[vvvrulz]

Spot on, it was only briefly in the Anderson and Cleary era's that players got properly whipped into shape, mainly mentally. You can also read the frustrated body language of the likes of Tomkins and Hoffman when they came into the setup, as soon as the wood is on us we collectively just fail.

I was hoping the Stupid Six saga would be the turning point of the club, a legitimate reason to clean out shop properly. Nope, straight back into the mire, is it a coincidence that all six (Hurrell aside) are back in there?

 

[Rich102]

I saw a look on Mannering's face in the last game and thought "This isn't a man enjoying playing in this team". He has worked his butt off. For what?
To not make the 8 again?

 

[JJ]

to be fair, when he plays there's a 2/3 chance we lose...

 

[Iron Lion]

Simon Mannering is loved by Warriors fans but no other NRL club would sign him and I never ever ever hear any Australian league personality or analyst praise him when the warriors are talked about. He is an defensive master and a weakling attacker. There is no reason for him to be playing NRL except for the fact he is a 'warriors legend and the warriors management and the fans pretty much dont know shit about winning.

Cappy has to go - he is so blind that he continually played Lillyman, Mannering, Hoffman, Thompson in the same pack. That alone lets you know he has no F@CKING clue!

Forget the hype and face reality - 5 years of being losers because of these losers.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

Before anyone bothers, don't feed the troll.

 

[jaseg]

WALKER BROS: Innovative and perhaps the next big things but not for me. Their style is no way proven to work at NRL level, a totally different ball game to NSW Cup. And if they're not successful this year, that proves their method might not be quite perfected yet. Clubs don't like experiments.

I'd say a 10-12 record is pretty amazing if they've lost their 7 best players from the year before. The Roosters lost 3 of their best (plus Pearce, JWH & Cordner for roughly half the season each) from a 3-times consecutive minor premiership team and are 6-16 this year.

 

[JJ]

We added Luke and have that record