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Why does rugby league have trouble expanding internationally compared to other codes

Knownothing

Juniors
Messages
764
Honestly, mate. If the private school system is so powerful, why is it that rugby union is currently running a poor last amongst the winter codes in Australia?


The lack of private school access in Australia does not seem to have affected rugby league at all.



If anybody has a legitimate complaint about the governance of an Olympic sport, by all means take it to the IOC. Good luck.
 
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Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
The public wouldn't care. Rugby League isn't a human right that can be oppressed. Stop giving the clowns who have run the game with no expansion an excuse for their lack of vision.
You would be surprised how many casual observers and union fans would think differently once having knowledge of what has been happening. I agree their is a good degree of administrative incompetence that may be part of the puzzle? It's not beyond RU types to undermine RL from within as we have seen with the "Super league" fiasco. That was poor administration to the nth degree! Even the capitulation of the ARL to News Ltd's desires despite staging that magnificent grand final defies the logic of decent negotiation! Something very dodgy happened back then from within the game and was worsened when so called "peace" was "negotiated" not!
 

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
Honestly, mate. If the private school system is so powerful, why is it that rugby union is currently running a poor last amongst the winter codes in Australia?


The lack of private school access in Australia does not seem to have affected the game at all.



If anybody has a legitimate complaint about the governance of an Olympic sport, by all means take it to the IOC. Good luck.
Quite simply rugby league, if given the access to all sectors of schooling would be the "giant" of Australian sport. The men in tweed coats have made sure rugby league is tempered and controlled and unable to aspire to such heights. Mediocrity should not sit well with a sport of the highest calibre! That being rugby league!
 

Teddyboy

First Grade
Messages
6,573
If rugby league didn't exist rugby union would look very similar to rugby league.

And three countries would have dominated the entire history of 'rugby', Aus, NZ and eng. How ironic!
I agree if there was one code it be England, New Zealand and Australia ( maybe USA if it gets any bigger) and the rest be well f**ked.
 

Whatwhere

Juniors
Messages
365
Money talks, always has, always will, especially when it comes to professional sport.



All the talk about unfair influence, discrimination, trickery, etc etc misses the point totally.



There is huge money in international sport, but it does not come without putting a lot of time, money, and effort in.

Good to see alongside adamkungl there are some rational personalities here.

Rugby's international growth and success directly correlates with the emergence of the RWC as an event and the better part of $1b of investment on behalf of the IRB come World Rugby since 1991.
 
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Whatwhere

Juniors
Messages
365
Quite simply rugby league, if given the access to all sectors of schooling would be the "giant" of Australian sport. The men in tweed coats have made sure rugby league is tempered and controlled and unable to aspire to such heights. Mediocrity should not sit well with a sport of the highest calibre! That being rugby league!

Wow. Just wow.

You are aware the number of private schools you're talking about are a tiny minority. Something like 40 or so in Australia. There are 3,939 schools in Aus (ABS, 2013). So you're talking about .45% of the total number. You see how ridiculous your argument is yet?
 

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
Good to see alongside adamkungl there are some rational personalities here.

Rugby's international growth and success directly correlates with the emergence of the RWC as an event and the better part of $1b of investment on behalf of the IRB come World Rugby since 1991.
Please stop insulting our code with using "Rugby" as if its entirely for the code of rugby union. Can't half tell you are a union troll! Back in your hole you non tackling bigot!
 

Stallion

First Grade
Messages
7,467
Wow. Just wow.

You are aware the number of private schools you're talking about are a tiny minority. Something like 40 or so in Australia. There are 3,939 schools in Aus (ABS, 2013). So you're talking about .45% of the total number. You see how ridiculous your argument is yet?
You miss the point entirely! The other codes have access to the public system as well! RL is the only code not to enjoy access to all school sectors! Now will you please get that in your head. RU has public school access just like RL (I know so as I played both in a public school) But RL doesn't enjoy the same access and subsequent top end advantages that RU gains from its exclusive and guarded presence in the private school system.
 

Whatwhere

Juniors
Messages
365
You miss the point entirely! The other codes have access to the public system as well! RL is the only code not to enjoy access to all school sectors! Now will you please get that in your head. RU has public school access just like RL (I know so as I played both in a public school) But RL doesn't enjoy the same access and subsequent top end advantages that RU gains from its exclusive and guarded presence in the private school system.

No, I haven't.

But you're talking about RL not being able to access less than .5% of all schools nationally. Outside that relative miniscule number there's no boundary. How do I know? Because I attended a private school. Which plays both but League has always been the primary. Produced a great many NRL players. As had every school we regularly played in my day. All private schools.
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
Money talks, always has, always will, especially when it comes to professional sport.



All the talk about unfair influence, discrimination, trickery, etc etc misses the point totally.



There is huge money in international sport, but it does not come without putting a lot of time, money, and effort in.


Money does indeed talk.The RWC provides the large sums available.Thus union can do a lot .They have access to schools,unis etc without fear of roadblocks being put in their way.

Your second point is rubbish.If you cannot access schools ,or be recognised by Govts thus gain monetary grants ,or as in the case of South Africa (SASOC_the Sth African Sports Confederation and Olympic Committee)who refuse to accept rugby league for that code tp access Govt grants ,fields etc.
In fact some members of that Committee are ru involved, and thus the head people at the SARU and SASOC see rl as some sort of threat to the position of ru in Sth Africa(which is laughable).

These points are completely valid and not glibly dismissive as you suggest, because if such the reverse happened in this country, there would be no Govt grants to ru ,nor access in the Private schools.
IOW you can have the loot, but not the infrastructure nor the player access.


I agree on your last point.The very reason rugby league stages a RLWC to build on its funding for continual development.But making ATM about $8m per event is not going to set the world on fire ,but with such limited funds ,limited development ensues.

There is no lack of effort on the part of the RLEF in developing the game in Europe with people prepared to give of their time and develop at grassroots level.Aided and assisted by limited funding from teh wuropean sports Commission.
 
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taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
No, I haven't.

But you're talking about RL not being able to access less than .5% of all schools nationally. Outside that relative miniscule number there's no boundary. How do I know? Because I attended a private school. Which plays both but League has always been the primary. Produced a great many NRL players. As had every school we regularly played in my day. All private schools.


So you are telling me GPS and Associated schools and independents like St Andrews in Sydney and schools like Brisbane Grammar,the Southport School,the Armidale school similarly in Melbourne etc throughout this country make up less than .5%.Private schools in Canberra like the one R Stuart attended.

I've attended an Associated school and played ru against both GPS/Assoc/and Independent,and rl was as far away as the nearest galaxy.
Yet soccer and fumble ball can now access more than a few of them.
It's straight out discrimination.Freedom of choice lacking in institutions that preach free enterprise
From memory Matraville High at one stage was union only, why the Ellas became ru players.
 
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taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
The public wouldn't care. Rugby League isn't a human right that can be oppressed. Stop giving the clowns who have run the game with no expansion an excuse for their lack of vision.

The trouble is in some countries, and South Africa which I have mentioned,rl is being suppressed.Morocco is another.

If a country is supposedly a democracy, that means people have the right to choose ,where they live, where they work, who they vote fore and it should follow the choice of code they wish to play ,if that code is available.

" Lack of vision" ,I suggest the people involved in the RLEF would be laughing at that comment.There are more countries playing rugby league now than at any time of the code's existence, and most of that increase has happened in the last dozen or so years.
The code applied for entry to the Commonwealth games and got Cat3 agreement(the first stage ).The code applied for grants from the Euro sports Commission ,received approval due to their development work.

"Lack of vision" is hardly a term I would use.
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,971
The trouble is in some countries, and South Africa which I have mentioned,rl is being suppressed.Morocco is another.

If a country is supposedly a democracy, that means people have the right to choose ,where they live, where they work, who they vote fore and it should follow the choice of code they wish to play ,if that code is available.

" Lack of vision" ,I suggest the people involved in the RLEF would be laughing at that comment.There are more countries playing rugby league now than at any time of the code's existence, and most of that increase has happened in the last dozen or so years.
The code applied for entry to the Commonwealth games and got Cat3 agreement(the first stage ).The code applied for grants from the Euro sports Commission ,received approval due to their development work.

"Lack of vision" is hardly a term I would use.

For 'lack of vision' i was referring to the last 100 years rather than right now. I'm quite happy with what we're doing now, slow that it may be. But for every success and every greedy Union play there have been many more false starts, self sabotages, and lack of support.

I'm merely saying that, no matter what injustices have occurred in the past and even the present (SA, Morocco, USA) excuses don't grow the game, action and money do. If there are roadblocks in South Africa, look to the countries around it to grow the game in Africa (I expect the SA government could be swayed by a more influential organisation than the tiny SARL, if they were to get involved).

Even in countries where Rugby League is a professional sport, expansion is half arsed - London and Perth stand out as continually wasted opportunities.

We've been over the France story and others a million times and to continually bring it up as a legitimate reason why the sport is so slow at expanding merely ignores far bigger shortcomings. Look to the future not the past.
 

Whatwhere

Juniors
Messages
365
So you are telling me GPS and Associated schools and independents like St Andrews in Sydney and schools like Brisbane Grammar,the Southport School,the Armidale school similarly in Melbourne etc throughout this country make up less than .5%.Private schools in Canberra like the one R Stuart attended.

I've attended an Associated school and played ru against both GPS/Assoc/and Independent,and rl was as far away as the nearest galaxy.
Yet soccer and fumble ball can now access more than a few of them.
It's straight out discrimination.Freedom of choice lacking in institutions that preach free enterprise
From memory Matraville High at one stage was union only, why the Ellas became ru players.

I actually miscalculated. According to the ABS last year there were just over 4,000 private schools in Australia. In the NSW GPS Rugby competition their are 8 schools. Six in CAS and ISA. There are only 4 in Canberra.

All up including all teams from Qld, Vic and WA I was off by 24 schools. Or 1.5% of the total number schools. Still tiny. Christ, look around. There is more RL in schools then there is Rugby.
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
For 'lack of vision' i was referring to the last 100 years rather than right now. I'm quite happy with what we're doing now, slow that it may be. But for every success and every greedy Union play there have been many more false starts, self sabotages, and lack of support.

I'm merely saying that, no matter what injustices have occurred in the past and even the present (SA, Morocco, USA) excuses don't grow the game, action and money do. If there are roadblocks in South Africa, look to the countries around it to grow the game in Africa (I expect the SA government could be swayed by a more influential organisation than the tiny SARL, if they were to get involved).

Even in countries where Rugby League is a professional sport, expansion is half arsed - London and Perth stand out as continually wasted opportunities.

We've been over the France story and others a million times and to continually bring it up as a legitimate reason why the sport is so slow at expanding merely ignores far bigger shortcomings. Look to the future not the past.


All I will add, without money and I am talking from the 40s onwards til 2000,it wouldn't matter how inefficient rl administration was they were marking time.
If one can imagine a competitive France continuing on from 1945,the money in Europe would be there in far greater amounts.
ATM the NRL has clubs pushing for 2018 funding so they can tie up contracts, in addition the Nrl is adding an extra $100m pa to grassroots Oz wide.The Knights,Titans need to be sold, and Tigers need to repay debt.
Money despite a decent Tv contract has to be spread over may areas,hencethe delay in Perth.

And we will continue to bring up France ,until such time as they get recompense.Why should theft pay?
Why does it take 70 years for a French Govt to agree to let rl have access to primary and high schools ,in 2015.It's a bleeding legit reason.

Union has had no such roadblocks.

The injustices are occurring now in Sth Africa and Morocco.

I would have no problem and would be highly critical of rl,if they had free reign to grow and achieved nothing.
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
I actually miscalculated. According to the ABS last year there were just over 4,000 private schools in Australia. In the NSW GPS Rugby competition their are 8 schools. Six in CAS and ISA. There are only 4 in Canberra.

All up including all teams from Qld, Vic and WA I was off by 24 schools. Or 1.5% of the total number schools. Still tiny. Christ, look around. There is more RL in schools then there is Rugby.

I repeat not all state primary and secondary schools are amenable to rl.
RU has little in the way of roadblocks for access.
 

Whatwhere

Juniors
Messages
365
All I will add, without money and I am talking from the 40s onwards til 2000,it wouldn't matter how inefficient rl administration was they were marking time.
If one can imagine a competitive France continuing on from 1945,the money in Europe would be there in far greater amounts.
ATM the NRL has clubs pushing for 2018 funding so they can tie up contracts, in addition the Nrl is adding an extra $100m pa to grassroots Oz wide.The Knights,Titans need to be sold, and Tigers need to repay debt.
Money despite a decent Tv contract has to be spread over may areas,hencethe delay in Perth.

And we will continue to bring up France ,until such time as they get recompense.Why should theft pay?
Why does it take 70 years for a French Govt to agree to let rl have access to primary and high schools ,in 2015.It's a bleeding legit reason.

Union has had no such roadblocks.

The injustices are occurring now in Sth Africa and Morocco.

I would have no problem and would be highly critical of rl,if they had free reign to grow and achieved nothing.

RL had more money the Rugby for many of those years. Look at all the Rugby talent they bought with that money. Something they still do at the junior level I might add.
 

Whatwhere

Juniors
Messages
365
I repeat not all state primary and secondary schools are amenable to rl.
RU has little in the way of roadblocks for access.

So, the issue with some state schools not being ammendable are a localised issue with those schools and their administration. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for Stallion's original supposition that if RL had access to all sectors of the education system. Well, it does. This focus on a relative few schools because they choose to maintain the game they have always traditionally played isn't this great roadblock many make it out to be.
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
Honestly, mate. If the private school system is so powerful, why is it that rugby union is currently running a poor last amongst the winter codes in Australia?


The lack of private school access in Australia does not seem to have affected rugby league at all.



If anybody has a legitimate complaint about the governance of an Olympic sport, by all means take it to the IOC. Good luck.


For a start more than a few sons of rugby league players and young former rl players attend Private schools.
Exhibit A Kurtley Beale.And the likes of Stuart ,Giteau in the past.

AFL has always been dominant in the Southern states and has TV deals well up on the NRL over the years.Soccer has always been a sleeping giant with huge grassroots players.The NRL has the Tv deal FTA and Pay.Maybe it's the convoluted ru rules which few can understand.
In fact ru was riding a wave after the RWC in England which they won .SL in 1995 -97 gave them and AFL a huge leg up.

The ARU agreed to SANZAR bringing in Japan and Argentine ,few ru fans could relate to these outsider teams ,ditto the SA ones, so TV ratings and crowds fell accordingly and TV stations steered clear.That is why union has dropped to 4.Administration has to take a swag of the blame for being no 4.

The Walls seem to be doing OK in the UK ATM,with a fair number of private schoolers and a growing number of state schoolers.


In 2003 rugby union according to ru tragics was going to push rl down the ladder.Become no 1 in the Northern states and no2 in the southern states, according to the beloved CEO John O'Neill.They had a war chest of about $43m.They blew it on administration,and the NRC and whatever else union admins do.
We had FitzSimons and Carlton predicting the demise of rugby league circa 2001/3.

Um !! SASOC is part of the SA Olympic Committee,they are hardly going to commit hare kari, by admitting they are guilty of suppressing a sport ,because they consider it part of rugby anyway.

If the private school system adheres to the principal of free enterprise, why the fear of rl in their sporting curriculum?I have no argument for any sport to be made available in all schools, in this country.
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
So, the issue with some state schools not being ammendable are a localised issue with those schools and their administration. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for Stallion's original supposition that if RL had access to all sectors of the education system. Well, it does. This focus on a relative few schools because they choose to maintain the game they have always traditionally played isn't this great roadblock many make it out to be.

Not necessarily, more to do with the head master or sport's master in state schools.
The issue should be all schools offering all sports.
It (rl)doesn't have access to all sectors of the education system in this country.

They are not being prevented from their traditional game FHS.Their old school tie obstinence in preventing the other rugby code by definition is a roadblock.Call it a barrier.It sure as hell is not user friendly.I've seen both sides having attended two of these schools.
 

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