Y.N.W.A. Thread (Liverpool fans thread) II

[saint.nick]

-Probably right with the first point. When your squad is extremely unbalanced, it doesn't leave much room for any suitable system. Any system that this team has found has always come with a massive vulnerability of quickly getting found out.

-The least Migs needs is very decent competition that threatens his place on a week by week basis, because so far he has had it way too easy.

-I thought the EXACT same about Moreno's tackle on Mane. Yeah, it was a great tackle, great potential goal-saver, but he is still getting way too many plaudits for it because he was basically just cleaning up his own mess. Does anyone clap you for cleaning up the glass you dropped on the ground before someone stood on it? Of course not. Skrtel receives that same kind of applause when he completes last ditch tackles which didn't need to happen if he didn't back off so much.

-Clyne started off pretty solidly but in the last month or two he's dropped in form. I think we need to be careful with how defensive-minded we want our fullbacks to be, because we don't want it to compromise any kind of attacking ability. Klopp's system at Dortmund made use of fullbacks in attack, did it not?

-I 75% agree with you about the midfield. You make a good point about the captain situation. Henderson is a good player but he's yet to prove himself in the top quality mould, and IMO if you want to be a successful team, you need a top quality centre midfielder.
I do think you ask too much of a defensive midfielder though. I think you're overlapping the role of a defensive midfielder and the role of a deep-lying playmaker. Busquets and Matic never reach that season goal tally, nor did Makelele. Gundogan is a box-to-box who type who will roam forward while another midfield remains deep-lying, but he doesn't score many goals too. He is a great player but extremely injury prone. Never seen Matuidi though.

-Coutinho can play left, but not in a truly wide way that perhaps a winger would. He occupies that space in between the centre and the touch line. He can play as a left-sided CAM, but that's it. He's not your bona-fide winger who can operate on the touch line and deliver crosses, ala Gareth Bale. Ditto Firmino. But in saying all of that, the 4-2-3-1 formation does not accommodate room for any bona fide wingers. The 3 behind the striker are essentially all attacking midfielders, while wing-backs overlap on the wing and deliver crosses. The two behind that 3 are a DM and B2B.

-Based on Ings' form, and on the assumption that Studge can *eventually* find fitness like RVP or Van Nistelrooy, we don't need to upgrade striker. As for the other positions, yes, but do we got through *another* wholesale change next summer, or just chip away at it layer by layer? I much lean towards the latter.

-Apart from Suarez, Reus is our only other kind of remote chance of a marquee player, but I'm not so keen on him anymore. He's a Sturridge 2.0.

*edit* Will adjust my opinion 4-2-3-1, I think there is room for 2 wide wingers, it just depends on how much variation you put in the formation.

 

[saint.nick]

But if we play with two actual wingers, then we have even more number 10s in the squad than we need. Playing with two wingers only leaves one spot for a central CAM, and that would be fought over by Coutinho, Firmino and Lallana. I guess one way to mitigate it is play with one bonafide winger wide on one side, and a 'wide' CAM on the other...

 

[cb4]

Lallana needs to be sold. And there is no harm having Firmino and Coutinho rotate. Good posts Nick.

 

[lolesi]

Pace is a massive issue with this current group of players. To put it bluntly, we just don't have any (Ibe is still a work in progress).

I'd be looking directly for pace in January and a new RCB.

I compare our flanks to some of the big boys atm:
Man city: sterling, navas, de bru
Arsenal: Sanchez, Walcot, oxe
Chelsea: Pedro, William (big fan), hazard
Man utd: depay, martial

Then you have slow ol Liverpool. We don't stand a chance !!

Even a team like swansea with ayew and montero or palace with bolasie or puncheon, watch the amount of damage those guys cause. Especially palace against us in the last 2 seasons..

We had one standout wide player, markovic and we shipped him off.

 

[saint.nick]

It's not that we don't have fast players, we just don't have them in the correct spots, i.e. the flanks. Coutinho and Firmino are quick, but are not flank players. Sturridge is fast, but he's a striker (and always injured). Moreno is one of the fastest players in the league, but as a defender he can't impact on the attack as much as an offensively-positioned player would. Apart from Ibe, who's an inconsistent starter, we really do not have any flank players, let alone pace on the flanks.

Pace is not universally important to every system (Spain 2010 on the whole were a slowish team), but pace is probably an important requirement for Klopp's system.

 

[cb4]

-Probably right with the first point. When your squad is extremely unbalanced, it doesn't leave much room for any suitable system. Any system that this team has found has always come with a massive vulnerability of quickly getting found out.

It is horribly unbalanced. So unbalanced we play with width, because we have no wingers, and we cant play tight because the guys we have need room. It's a mess.
I know, Rodgers blah blah blah, but there are other people who agreed to let this happen. A DoF needs to happen.

-The least Migs needs is very decent competition that threatens his place on a week by week basis, because so far he has had it way too easy.

Agreed, and Bogdan isn't going to do that. The young German kid I mentioned is. Salvatore Sirigu is the keeper I really want, and PSG have Trapp now so I would make an offer. What's the worst that can happen? They say no? Try it.

-I thought the EXACT same about Moreno's tackle on Mane. Yeah, it was a great tackle, great potential goal-saver, but he is still getting way too many plaudits for it because he was basically just cleaning up his own mess. Does anyone clap you for cleaning up the glass you dropped on the ground before someone stood on it? Of course not. Skrtel receives that same kind of applause when he completes last ditch tackles which didn't need to happen if he didn't back off so much.

Nick, I love this. Why do people get praised for fixing bad mistakes. The analogy of the dropped glass is perfect. Kudos.

-Clyne started off pretty solidly but in the last month or two he's dropped in form. I think we need to be careful with how defensive-minded we want our fullbacks to be, because we don't want it to compromise any kind of attacking ability. Klopp's system at Dortmund made use of fullbacks in attack, did it not?

I like Clyne, but he needs a rest. He is gassed. Klopp is currently arguing with the FA about Rossiter being flogged (different circumstances) but our fullbacks cannot be rested as we have no cover. Goes back to this comment:

Our squad is completely unbalanced.

Klopps system made use of attacking fullbacks, yes, but these guys had a clue about tracking back. The guys I mentioned as competition have the same clue.

-I 75% agree with you about the midfield. You make a good point about the captain situation. Henderson is a good player but he's yet to prove himself in the top quality mould, and IMO if you want to be a successful team, you need a top quality centre midfielder.

Completely agree. This is why making him captain was such a short sighted idea. Captains should be the focal point of your defense. Regardless of leadership in the locker room.

I do think you ask too much of a defensive midfielder though. I think you're overlapping the role of a defensive midfielder and the role of a deep-lying playmaker.

Not at all. A good defensive mid can break up the play and push forward. Goals maybe out of reach, but the basic fundamentals of a DM should be to stop the play, be a link up between CB and CM and also play off of them.

Busquets and Matic never reach that season goal tally, nor did Makelele. Gundogan is a box-to-box who type who will roam forward while another midfield remains deep-lying, but he doesn't score many goals too. He is a great player but extremely injury prone. Never seen Matuidi though.

Yeh, the goals maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but that is because we simply don't score goals.
Gundogan is more a DM mate. He just backs his fitness to push forward. Probably the best passer, to play himself out of trouble. Really rate him.
If you haven't seen Matuidi, get beIN sport and watch him, it is a pleasure.

-Coutinho can play left, but not in a truly wide way that perhaps a winger would. He occupies that space in between the centre and the touch line. He can play as a left-sided CAM, but that's it. He's not your bona-fide winger who can operate on the touch line and deliver crosses, ala Gareth Bale.

I still think his best role is a number 8, but at the moment we need him up the field. So he needs to play left. Thats where he is most dangerous.
He sent Bellerin for a sandwich in the Arsenal game starting wide and cutting in. He won't ever be in the Bale class, but he could certainly be in that mould. He will never be a WC 10, he could be a WC wide player though.

Ditto Firmino.

I don't know about that. Everything from him screams a 10 who plays out of his strikers pocket. I really want to sign Kevin Volland, you will see the real Firmino then

But in saying all of that, the 4-2-3-1 formation does not accommodate room for any bona fide wingers. The 3 behind the striker are essentially all attacking midfielders, while wing-backs overlap on the wing and deliver crosses. The two behind that 3 are a DM and B2B.

Depends on whose system. Juup Heynckes played with width, genuine width with Robben and Ribbery. It can be done with the right players, and the right fullbacks.

-Based on Ings' form, and on the assumption that Studge can *eventually* find fitness like RVP or Van Nistelrooy, we don't need to upgrade striker. As for the other positions, yes, but do we got through *another* wholesale change next summer, or just chip away at it layer by layer? I much lean towards the latter.

Agreed. I would keep those 3, and then get Werner and Volland. Gives us excellent cover in the case of an injury.

-Apart from Suarez, Reus is our only other kind of remote chance of a marquee player, but I'm not so keen on him anymore. He's a Sturridge 2.0.

Most players are now. Even Messi is taking knocks. The freaks like Suarez and Ronnie have the balls to play through a knock though. Suarez was never, ever at 100% with us. How scary is that.

*edit* Will adjust my opinion 4-2-3-1, I think there is room for 2 wide wingers, it just depends on how much variation you put in the formation.

There is room for it if you have the fullbacks who know how to play defensively over attacking, guys that can track back.

The beauty of a perfectly executed 4-2-3-1 is if your left winger cuts in, and you left fb pushes forward, your DM slides and allows for adjustment.
If your left back knows how to track back properly then it is easily to be dangerous in the final third.

Problem is, we have Moreno, who pushes forward, forcing Coutinho in, and then uses his pace to get back. Can't happen in a pressing system, as you will burn out.

The players I listed, based off my re-search, are the most appropriate, in our budget range, for Klopps 4-2-3-1.


Sorry for the long winded post, I just love talking Liverpool, tactics and transfers.

Apologies.

 

[saint.nick]

Just saw youtube highlights of Brannagan. The kid can play.

 

[saint.nick]

Apology not accepted, the long-winded posts are interesting to read.

-Perhaps you're right about the role of a DM, but I still don't think they fully encompass the creative duties of a deep-lying playmaker like Pirlo.

There is room for it if you have the fullbacks who know how to play defensively over attacking, guys that can track back.

The beauty of a perfectly executed 4-2-3-1 is if your left winger cuts in, and you left fb pushes forward, your DM slides and allows for adjustment.
If your left back knows how to track back properly then it is easily to be dangerous in the final third.

Problem is, we have Moreno, who pushes forward, forcing Coutinho in, and then uses his pace to get back. Can't happen in a pressing system, as you will burn out.

-That confuses me a little bit. How did Dortmund players then cope with the pressing if their FBs were also overlapping wingers and then tracking back?

-So a perfectly executed 4-2-3-1 involves wingers and fullbacks working in tandem with one another, with sometimes wingers pushed further forward, and other times the FBs pushed furthest forward?

-What exactly is a number 8? Stevie of course wore that number but he used to be everywhere. Is it basically a centre mid? Coutinho could actually work in that position. The guy needs time on the ball, where he will be afforded that, plus it would give him time to feed through balls which he is capable of. Plus he's developed a great long-range shot. But when I spoke about Coutinho before, I spoke of his role in the number 10 sense, that's why I compared him to Firmino, but Firmino probably is a lot more suited to that.

 

[Foz]

Pace is a massive issue with this current group of players. To put it bluntly, we just don't have any (Ibe is still a work in progress).

I'd be looking directly for pace in January and a new RCB.

I compare our flanks to some of the big boys atm:
Man city: sterling, navas, de bru
Arsenal: Sanchez, Walcot, oxe
Chelsea: Pedro, William (big fan), hazard
Man utd: depay, martial

Then you have slow ol Liverpool. We don't stand a chance !!

Even a team like swansea with ayew and montero or palace with bolasie or puncheon, watch the amount of damage those guys cause. Especially palace against us in the last 2 seasons..

We had one standout wide player, markovic and we shipped him off.

You are spot on with our lack of pace.
The loss of Sterling effects the team in so many ways.
I think that's a reason that Coutinho isn't as effective too.
Previously we had Sterling stretching the defence with his pace.
Now we have nobody doing it and Couthino has to work off a standing start where defenders are much more comfortable in picking him off.
18 months ago we had Suarez Sturridge Sterling and Couthinho who were a defenders nightmare and we were challenging for a title.It wasn't hiding our defensive issues but when you score more goals than the opposition it was easy to brush over.

Now we have people seem happy to fight for fourth spot which is a loser mentality as soon as you accept that's the case.
imagine telling a side you can't win the title but you can run fourth.The paper might write columns saying that but do you think any coach would be telling his side that?Youve never coached if you think like that.
Problem for us was Rodgers was fighting for his job and trying to take the heat off himself by telling journalists 4th is ok.
It's a bit like the scene in The Natural where the psych guy says"losing is a disease" etc.

 

[cb4]

Apology not accepted, the long-winded posts are interesting to read.

-Perhaps you're right about the role of a DM, but I still don't think they fully encompass the creative duties of a deep-lying playmaker like Pirlo.

Possibly, but deep lying play makers genuinely don't break up the play. Watch Matuidi, he is, in my opinion, the best in the business.

-That confuses me a little bit. How did Dortmund players then cope with the pressing if their FBs were also overlapping wingers and then tracking back?

They didn't always overlap, as players like Rues and Aubameyang didn't always cut in. They held their width very well.
Good fullbacks know when to take advantage of space. MOreno doesn't. He forces Coutinho in, and then has to track back.

-So a perfectly executed 4-2-3-1 involves wingers and fullbacks working in tandem with one another, with sometimes wingers pushed further forward, and other times the FBs pushed furthest forward?

Yes. When the wingers hold their width, the fullbacks are around the halfway with the cb's, creating a high defensive line.
When the wingers cut in, the FB's push forward.

It's interesting to watch a player like Rues, who, at the beginning of his time at Dortmund, only cut in at the 18 yard box or just before, meaning the fullbacks didn't have to push up that much, allowing to press quicker on a turnover.

-What exactly is a number 8? Stevie of course wore that number but he used to be everywhere. Is it basically a centre mid? Coutinho could actually work in that position. The guy needs time on the ball, where he will be afforded that, plus it would give him time to feed through balls which he is capable of. Plus he's developed a great long-range shot. But when I spoke about Coutinho before, I spoke of his role in the number 10 sense, that's why I compared him to Firmino, but Firmino probably is a lot more suited to that.

I define a #8 as a link up man between the DM and AM. A glorified CM in other words. Thats where Coutinho fits best. With time and space.

 

[saint.nick]

Possibly, but deep lying play makers genuinely don't break up the play. Watch Matuidi, he is, in my opinion, the best in the business.





They didn't always overlap, as players like Rues and Aubameyang didn't always cut in. They held their width very well.
Good fullbacks know when to take advantage of space. MOreno doesn't. He forces Coutinho in, and then has to track back.



Yes. When the wingers hold their width, the fullbacks are around the halfway with the cb's, creating a high defensive line.
When the wingers cut in, the FB's push forward.

It's interesting to watch a player like Rues, who, at the beginning of his time at Dortmund, only cut in at the 18 yard box or just before, meaning the fullbacks didn't have to push up that much, allowing to press quicker on a turnover.



I define a #8 as a link up man between the DM and AM. A glorified CM in other words. Thats where Coutinho fits best. With time and space.

Yes, where Coutinho can warp spacetime to win us games

I got a bit of stick for using that glass analogy with Moreno on another site, people saying I shouldn't damper a good a tackle, and that his defensive misposition was just a by-product of being asked to push forward. Not too sure if I buy that, I don't think he's asked to occupy the opposition final third for the whole 90 mins.

 

[thorson1987]

Benteke injured. Out against Bournemouth.

Wooooooooo

 

[cb4]

Hearing Benteke not playing tomorrow and maybe in doubt for Chelsea. Hello more average games from Origi.

EDIT: serves me for not refreshing my page.

 

[saint.nick]

what a f**king joke, why do our players always get injured in training rather than actual games :crazy:

I do NOT want to see Origi, please let it be Firmino or Sinclair...

 

[saint.nick]

Cb, you seen much of that Berardi kid?

 

[cb4]

what a f**king joke, why do our players always get injured in training rather than actual games :crazy:

I do NOT want to see Origi, please let it be Firmino or Sinclair...

The knee complaint came from the Southampton game. May make the bench. Interesting that Klopp praised Firmino and said he can play as a false 9. Hopefully we see it tomorrow.

Cb, you seen much of that Berardi kid?

Italian kid? Not seen him all that often as I take little interest in the Serie A outside of Inter, is there a link to him?

 

[saint.nick]

The knee complaint came from the Southampton game. May make the bench. Interesting that Klopp praised Firmino and said he can play as a false 9. Hopefully we see it tomorrow.



Italian kid? Not seen him all that often as I take little interest in the Serie A outside of Inter, is there a link to him?

Apparently we're interested in him, just punch his name into google.

Isn't it amazing how even with 4 strikers we still struggle to field one that's competent enough?

 

[cb4]

I'd rather not get an unknown.

My preferences for attackers go with Timo Werner and Kevin Volland, unless Klopp can get us Aubameyang.

 

[saint.nick]

Did you see Fairclough's comments about Sturridge?

"Daniel has real star quality but he has to work on his attitude and desire," Fairclough told Talk Sport.

"Picking up these little knocks – surely from time to time they aren't as bad as first feared?

"Maybe the medical team offers players excuses because the modern footballer would not have gone through the pain barrier like older players did.

"You do have to be careful but sometimes you hope people show their grit and determination and put it aside to get out there."

From a physio point of view, what do you think? Has he got a point or is he just being irrational?

 

[thorson1987]

Did you see Fairclough's comments about Sturridge?

"Daniel has real star quality but he has to work on his attitude and desire," Fairclough told Talk Sport.

"Picking up these little knocks ? surely from time to time they aren't as bad as first feared?

"Maybe the medical team offers players excuses because the modern footballer would not have gone through the pain barrier like older players did.

"You do have to be careful but sometimes you hope people show their grit and determination and put it aside to get out there."

From a physio point of view, what do you think? Has he got a point or is he just being irrational?

I think he has a point.

Can guarantee that Stevie G wouldn't have sat out this long with the same injuries.