Well done and Congrat Gareth on 5/8 of 2017

[ouryear]

Because it suits your argument.




Subjective. He still played his usual "rocks and diamonds" game and arguably lost the first final for them. He also had very little game time throughout the year. If he was any good, Bennett would have been playing him from the start. Additionally Bennett wouldn't have let him go if he was seen as valuable to the club moving forward.




And yet it's acceptable to have the same or greater expectation on Widdop? Completely unrealistic.

Yes he has deficiencies in his game but you would have to think that if we had creativity in the half, hooker and fullback as well (or at least 1 of those positions) we may see a different level of playmaker. Not to mention creativity in the coaching ranks.

Cant agree with you.

Widdop is MEANT to be a senior player, english international, blah blah blah.

You think JT, Cooper Cronk, and other experienced international players form would drop with an average coach.

I dont.

Its not that widdop is a bad player.

Its just ... as a number 6 he is meant to be creative.

He isnt, not even a little.

F..k.....I hope Benny Hunt can be.

Or its gonna be a long 2018.

Hopefully james graham will become our natural leader.

Widdop can then just play.

Lets see.

 

[getsmarty]

I agree but that's not the point.

Every premiership team in recent years has that one or two players that put's the team on his back and owns the result. Much like Morgan is doing for the Cows, Cronk and Smith for the Storm, JT for the Cows when he's playing. The Cows should be nowhere near the GF, they are missing their 2 best players and have a backline basically as slow as ours. They should have been outgunned in every game. But Morgan and to a lesser extent Taumalolo have refused to let them lose. They have put the result in their hands and delivered. No amount of coaching really helps with this, its all about heart and talent.

We have plenty of problems, not least of which is the coach, but which of our players can put the team on their back and deliver like Morgan has? Widdop? Duges? We certainly paid them to be those players, but they're just not capable. Neither come any where close to the players I have mentioned.

It's why we threw the kitchen sink at Ben Hunt and hopefully he can be that guy for us. Time will tell.

We didn't throw the "Kitchen Sink" at Ben Hunt....When will people stop believing this nonsense...We paid unders compared to what others are currently asking. (Maloney etc )

You could give McGregor the QLD team and he would have them playing well under their ability. Our team has one Plan and when it fails their is no other plan. This comes down to coaching...look at how busted they were after origin and the coach continues to flog Frizz...etc and not utilize the bench to keep players fresh. Its difficult to make comparisons to other sides when in reality our shape/Line speed/tactics are all poor. This all comes down to coaching and what plan the coach tells the players to execute on the field.

Lets see if Dugan progresses under Flanagan. My guess is he will.We don't have the luxury of a Cronk/Smith/Morgan. Widdop is the best we have and at times he did take the game by the scruff of the neck. The other side of the coin is that our left edge was easily our most potent side and teams just marked up making both Widdop and Lafai less effective as the year progressed. Did the coach then offer up a change in tactics???? Big no from me....so again it falls on the coaches shoulders.

 

[BrissyRedV]

I agree but that's not the point.

Every premiership team in recent years has that one or two players that put's the team on his back and owns the result. Much like Morgan is doing for the Cows, Cronk and Smith for the Storm, JT for the Cows when he's playing. The Cows should be nowhere near the GF, they are missing their 2 best players and have a backline basically as slow as ours. They should have been outgunned in every game. But Morgan and to a lesser extent Taumalolo have refused to let them lose. They have put the result in their hands and delivered. No amount of coaching really helps with this, its all about heart and talent.

We have plenty of problems, not least of which is the coach, but which of our players can put the team on their back and deliver like Morgan has? Widdop? Duges? We certainly paid them to be those players, but they're just not capable. Neither come any where close to the players I have mentioned.

It's why we threw the kitchen sink at Ben Hunt and hopefully he can be that guy for us. Time will tell.

Morgan has excelled but he has not been alone. Taumololo has manhandled the opposition forward packs and Coote has been excellent as well. Te Maire Martin and Granville have been no slouches and Green is an excellent coach.

From our perspective, Mary is and always has been our biggest weakness. Our pack has been good but obviously under orders to control the ball and not promote it through offloads. They also run 1 out meaning they can be gang tackled with a likely slow play the ball to follow. This is a coaching issue. As for Widdop, who else stepped up in the backline to assist? Do we expect him to be a 1 man band in a team sport? McGroan was atrocious, Dufty needed time to settle at 1 and McInnes whilst solid, seemed to struggle to add some spark. Widdop had his weaknesses and by no means was he perfect, but as others have mentioned, he is the least of our troubles and is the reason we were even in contention.

 

[ouryear]

Morgan has excelled but he has not been alone. Taumololo has manhandled the opposition forward packs and Coote has been excellent as well. Te Maire Martin and Granville have been no slouches and Green is an excellent coach.

From our perspective, Mary is and always has been our biggest weakness. Our pack has been good but obviously under orders to control the ball and not promote it through offloads. They also run 1 out meaning they can be gang tackled with a likely slow play the ball to follow. This is a coaching issue. As for Widdop, who else stepped up in the backline to assist? Do we expect him to be a 1 man band in a team sport? McGroan was atrocious, Dufty needed time to settle at 1 and McInnes whilst solid, seemed to struggle to add some spark. Widdop had his weaknesses and by no means was he perfect, but as others have mentioned, he is the least of our troubles and is the reason we were even in contention.

What.....led us to 4 wins in the final 15 or somethng games?

The teams early seson form was because of vaughan, packer, jdb and fitz...end of story.

 

[Exsilium]

Reason(s) for winning: Vaughan, Packer, Friz and JDB.

Reason(s) for losing: Power game cant be sustained, Poor bench use, Mary and his persistence with playing the same structure even when losing, Fitness, discipline and execution....to name a few.

Reason(s) you will improve: Ben Hunt. No Dugan and No McCrone.

 

[giboz71]

We didn't throw the "Kitchen Sink" at Ben Hunt....When will people stop believing this nonsense...We paid unders compared to what others are currently asking. (Maloney etc )

You could give McGregor the QLD team and he would have them playing well under their ability. Our team has one Plan and when it fails their is no other plan. This comes down to coaching...look at how busted they were after origin and the coach continues to flog Frizz...etc and not utilize the bench to keep players fresh. Its difficult to make comparisons to other sides when in reality our shape/Line speed/tactics are all poor. This all comes down to coaching and what plan the coach tells the players to execute on the field.

Lets see if Dugan progresses under Flanagan. My guess is he will.We don't have the luxury of a Cronk/Smith/Morgan. Widdop is the best we have and at times he did take the game by the scruff of the neck. The other side of the coin is that our left edge was easily our most potent side and teams just marked up making both Widdop and Lafai less effective as the year progressed. Did the coach then offer up a change in tactics???? Big no from me....so again it falls on the coaches shoulders.

But since when has Morgan ever been mentioned in the same breath as the elite halves like Cronk and JT??

He never has till this finals series. In fact up till recently, most people would have classed Widdop the superior player.

I keep harping on Morgan as he has raised his game accordingly as his team has needed, given they are outgunned without their two best players.

My point about Widdop is whilst he's a good player, he hasn't yet raised his game to a level where he makes his whole team better. And we really need a player capable of doing this.

 

[BrissyRedV]

But since when has Morgan ever been mentioned in the same breath as the elite halves like Cronk and JT??

He never has till this finals series. In fact up till recently, most people would have classed Widdop the superior player.

I keep harping on Morgan as he has raised his game accordingly as his team has needed, given they are outgunned without their two best players.

My point about Widdop is whilst he's a good player, he hasn't yet raised his game to a level where he makes his whole team better. And we really need a player capable of doing this.

Lifting several premiership players and young talents all of whom are under the tutelage of a good coach is completely different to trying to lift McCrone and several "star" players in slumps due to on going contract negotiations under the coaching of McGregor. Talking chalk and cheese in a number of key positions and experience levels.

 

[dragonreddy]

I wonder how many of the dally m points Widdop racked up while he was gunning for a new contract,because most of the games I watched him play at the back end of the season he was back to his pretty ordinary self .

As someone above was singing Morgans praises if Widdop can run right to the line, instead of away from and take a hit occasionally ,I will be convinced he is the real deal.

Winning this just shows that the Dally m's are skewed ,the judges get their darlings and wear their rose coloured glasses when watching them play.

 

[giboz71]

Lifting several premiership players and young talents all of whom are under the tutelage of a good coach is completely different to trying to lift McCrone and several "star" players in slumps due to on going contract negotiations under the coaching of McGregor. Talking chalk and cheese in a number of key positions and experience levels.

Agree about the coach, but the rest of the Cows squad are hardly world beaters.

Te Maire Martin hasn't done anything of note in his career thus far. Feldt, Linnett, O'Neil and Winterstein are pedestrian at best. Bolton, Asiata, Fensom and Jensen wouldn't get a start in our forward pack. On paper, their GF squad other than Morgan and Taumalolo aren't any better than us.

Without Morgan, they would be nowhere near the GF, and my point is Widdop hasn't shown the capability to raise his game to another level. Don't get me wrong, he's still a great player, but I don't see him as a match winner. And a match winner is something we really need (cue Ben Hunt).

 

[BrissyRedV]

Agree about the coach, but the rest of the Cows squad are hardly world beaters.

Te Maire Martin hasn't done anything of note in his career thus far. Feldt, Linnett, O'Neil and Winterstein are pedestrian at best. Bolton, Asiata, Fensom and Jensen wouldn't get a start in our forward pack. On paper, their GF squad other than Morgan and Taumalolo aren't any better than us.

Without Morgan, they would be nowhere near the GF, and my point is Widdop hasn't shown the capability to raise his game to another level. Don't get me wrong, he's still a great player, but I don't see him as a match winner. And a match winner is something we really need (cue Ben Hunt).

Those pedestrians are all premiership winners in 2015 and are all more than serviceable players which was my main point. Morgan has certainly stepped up his game but my point being when comparing the two is that Morgan has some excellent support both on the field and off the field to achieve the heights he is getting to. Being a part of the Qld origin squad, having a quality coach, having JT as a mentor, and having a squad full of experienced premiership winners have all contributed to where he is now. Conversely, we have been a mess for several years with a coach way out of his depth, and a squad, whilst developing and getting stronger, still lacking in high pressure game experience and lacking in strike in a number of key positions. Hopefully with Hunt arriving next year and Graham coming as well, this will alleviate some of the pressure that is on Widdop to be a one man band.

 

[giboz71]

Those pedestrians are all premiership winners in 2015 and are all more than serviceable players which was my main point. Morgan has certainly stepped up his game but my point being when comparing the two is that Morgan has some excellent support both on the field and off the field to achieve the heights he is getting to. Being a part of the Qld origin squad, having a quality coach, having JT as a mentor, and having a squad full of experienced premiership winners have all contributed to where he is now. Conversely, we have been a mess for several years with a coach way out of his depth, and a squad, whilst developing and getting stronger, still lacking in high pressure game experience and lacking in strike in a number of key positions. Hopefully with Hunt arriving next year and Graham coming as well, this will alleviate some of the pressure that is on Widdop to be a one man band.

All good points, but Widdop's pedigree is hardly poor. He learnt his trade under Bellamy's systems at the Storm learning from the likes of Smith, Cronk and Slater and being part of premiership squad in 2012. He's also played 21 tests for England, been part of World Cups and has been coached by the likes of Wayne Bennett. So you can argue he's had as much support as Morgan.

Agree playing under Mary at the Dragons probably hasn't helped him, but I just want to see him raise his game much like Morgan has this finals campaign. He had the perfect opportunity when we were struggling to make the semis, but in the games that mattered (especially the last Dogs game), he was nowhere to be seen. He should have taken ownership of the result as our captain and best player, but he just didn't do it.

Hence, the notion that he sometimes goes missing when it matters most, like other have noted, I think is a valid point. Agree that with Hunt and Graham on board to share the load, we'll hopefully see the best out of him.

 

[BrissyRedV]

All good points, but Widdop's pedigree is hardly poor. He learnt his trade under Bellamy's systems at the Storm learning from the likes of Smith, Cronk and Slater and being part of premiership squad in 2012. He's also played 21 tests for England, been part of World Cups and has been coached by the likes of Wayne Bennett. So you can argue he's had as much support as Morgan.

Agree playing under Mary at the Dragons probably hasn't helped him, but I just want to see him raise his game much like Morgan has this finals campaign. He had the perfect opportunity when we were struggling to make the semis, but in the games that mattered (especially the last Dogs game), he was nowhere to be seen. He should have taken ownership of the result as our captain and best player, but he just didn't do it.

Hence, the notion that he sometimes goes missing when it matters most, like other have noted, I think is a valid point. Agree that with Hunt and Graham on board to share the load, we'll hopefully see the best out of him.

All fair enough points. IMO Widdop is being harshly criticized considering the weaknesses in our squad and coaching staff and am willing to reserve my judgement on him until those issues are fixed especially considering I think his play was one of the main reasons (assisted by the improved pack) we were even in a position to make the finals. Out of curiosity, hypothetically lets say Morgan was in Widdops position this year with Mary as coach and McCrone as his 7, do you think results would have been different?

 

[JohnnoMcJohnno]

All fair enough points. IMO Widdop is being harshly criticized considering the weaknesses in our squad and coaching staff and am willing to reserve my judgement on him until those issues are fixed especially considering I think his play was one of the main reasons (assisted by the improved pack) we were even in a position to make the finals. Out of curiosity, hypothetically lets say Morgan was in Widdops position this year with Mary as coach and McCrone as his 7, do you think results would have been different?

Hypothetically, I reckon Morgan would have won us the game against Souths. We may have limped into the finals instead of the Cowboys.

 

[getsmarty]

Hypothetically, I reckon Morgan would have won us the game against Souths. We may have limped into the finals instead of the Cowboys.

All hypothetical...... People forget they have Jason T and others playing out of their skins...Our forward pack was busted...They have Paul Green...We have McGregor........These things cannot be left out of the equation. Without Widdop we lose many of those first few games...

Cannot believe the bashing he cops in here...Hopefully people give Ben Hunt a chance next year..it will most likely take time for the new combo to gel....Will people give Hunt a bashing if it doesn't gel with Widdop straight away?? They will probably blame Widdop...Its pretty simple...Our Left Edge was easily our most effective attacking side. Teams worked this out and marked up on both Widdop and Lafai giving them less space and time. Our esteemed coach didn't have a plan to counter this. Also his ineffective use of the bench during the 2nd half of the year more than likely cost us....When our pack was busted and not moving forward it caused us to play sideways...All the coaches fault. Never once did this get rectified...Is the coach not responsible for getting a message down to the players ???

 

[Walpole]

All hypothetical...... People forget they have Jason T and others playing out of their skins...Our forward pack was busted...They have Paul Green...We have McGregor........These things cannot be left out of the equation. Without Widdop we lose many of those first few games...

Cannot believe the bashing he cops in here...Hopefully people give Ben Hunt a chance next year..it will most likely take time for the new combo to gel....Will people give Hunt a bashing if it doesn't gel with Widdop straight away?? They will probably blame Widdop...Its pretty simple...Our Left Edge was easily our most effective attacking side. Teams worked this out and marked up on both Widdop and Lafai giving them less space and time. Our esteemed coach didn't have a plan to counter this. Also his ineffective use of the bench during the 2nd half of the year more than likely cost us....When our pack was busted and not moving forward it caused us to play sideways...All the coaches fault. Never once did this get rectified...Is the coach not responsible for getting a message down to the players ???

You know the answer to that question.

He basically has the first set of the Charity Shield to get it 100% right or he will be slaughtered by this forum.

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

I think everyone is looking forward to Hunt coming and he will be given every opportunity to impress.
In Widdop's case, he has been part of the equation for a number of years now.
He has been part of the failure to date. That's undeniable.
I honestly don't think it's bashing.
Fans are just disappointed and they are expressing that disappointment.
Obviously Widdop is our main playmaker and Captain so he has to shoulder some of the burden of expectation.
All this is underscored by your main point and that is the quality of our coaching set up.
McGregor is unqualified to coach FG.
With a proper coach, maybe Widdop would have done a lot better.

 

[giboz71]

All hypothetical...... People forget they have Jason T and others playing out of their skins...Our forward pack was busted...They have Paul Green...We have McGregor........These things cannot be left out of the equation. Without Widdop we lose many of those first few games...

Cannot believe the bashing he cops in here...Hopefully people give Ben Hunt a chance next year..it will most likely take time for the new combo to gel....Will people give Hunt a bashing if it doesn't gel with Widdop straight away?? They will probably blame Widdop...Its pretty simple...Our Left Edge was easily our most effective attacking side. Teams worked this out and marked up on both Widdop and Lafai giving them less space and time. Our esteemed coach didn't have a plan to counter this. Also his ineffective use of the bench during the 2nd half of the year more than likely cost us....When our pack was busted and not moving forward it caused us to play sideways...All the coaches fault. Never once did this get rectified...Is the coach not responsible for getting a message down to the players ???

No one is bashing Widdop.

It's just a fact that any championship side needs 1 or 2 champion players to LEAD them. Doesn't matter what sport. The difference between a team winning and losing can be as small as the efforts of one special player who demands the ball and owns the result. Morgan has shown that this finals series. I often wonder what would have been if we'd had someone like Morgan in those close losses against the Rabbits and the Raiders and the last game against the Dogs when we were leading with 15 to go.

If Widdop isn't that guy to lead us home with the game on the line then that's fine. He's still a very good player and we will still need him to win a comp. But I just doubt he will be the difference between winning and losing, unlike the other elite players in the comp.

 

[getsmarty]

No one is bashing Widdop.


If Widdop isn't that guy to lead us home with the game on the line then that's fine. He's still a very good player and we will still need him to win a comp. But I just doubt he will be the difference between winning and losing, unlike the other elite players in the comp.

With a different coach and tactics he may be. Currently he is our main attacking play maker ( proof being the strength of our left side attack ) making it easy to mark up on him..which is what we saw in the 2nd half of the year.
Again, the coach did NOTHING to negate this.....THE LACK OF ALTERNATE TACTICS IS THE MAIN ISSUE.

You keep on bringing up Morgan...He has Green as his coach and Thurston as his mentor. They have a pack that is rolling forward and Green has the coaching smarts unlike our coach. Compare apples with apples....again, our coach has shown little since 2014 and this is the BIGGEST ISSUE.

 

[True_Believer]

I respect your views.
I suppose the essence of these posts is subjective to start with so totally respect your point of view.
"Suit my argument"? - I just happen to agree with the previous post.
However, I can tell you something that isn't subjective.
2016 and now 2017 are done and dusted with the fan base crying in their beer once again.
Happy to stick up for Widdop but he was part of the reason we didn't make the 8.
That's my opinion anyway.
He was outplayed in numerous games that we contested and we lost games we should've won because of his game management.
He didn't crab as much as last year but still trotted out those habits in numerous games we played.
I hope Hunt will make a difference and that our forwards can re-visit their form of 2017.
We only have another 5 months until all these questions will be answered.
.

Dennis, not disputing he is part of the problem. I'm just not convinced he is a large part of the problem. At least from my point of view, there are too many other factors at play within the team to suggest he isn't capable of doing these things you talk about. You may end up being right, but I am willing to wait until next year where he has at least 1 other player in the spine that can assist in some way before making a call.

We talk about our forwards being busted. Could not Gareth be busted as well considering his injury and the amout of work he had to do during the season? There were attempts towards the end to manage games and to a degree he achieved that on occassion, but without an alternative, there's only so much he can maintain during a game. I just want to see him play alongside someone who has skill - and Hunt will be that person. Again, even that will come down to coaching game plans.

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

Dennis, not disputing he is part of the problem. I'm just not convinced he is a large part of the problem. At least from my point of view, there are too many other factors at play within the team to suggest he isn't capable of doing these things you talk about. You may end up being right, but I am willing to wait until next year where he has at least 1 other player in the spine that can assist in some way before making a call.

We talk about our forwards being busted. Could not Gareth be busted as well considering his injury and the amout of work he had to do during the season? There were attempts towards the end to manage games and to a degree he achieved that on occassion, but without an alternative, there's only so much he can maintain during a game. I just want to see him play alongside someone who has skill - and Hunt will be that person. Again, even that will come down to coaching game plans.

Maybe I am being too harsh on Widdop and quite happy to see Hunt come in to support next year.
However I am not very optimistic and I still find it difficult to reconcile 2016 and the way we bombed out this year.
It was a capitulation not a down turn in form.
Widdop's main redemption is that he was being coached by McGregor.
McGregor could have been more adventurous and persevered with one of the young halves we had that would have added some spark and taken some of the pressure off Widdop.
When you look at Nathan Cleary, I still don't understand our reluctance to gamble on some of our youngsters.
Anyway - I appreciate Widdop's skills as a player and next year the scene will be set for some improvement.