Rationalisation of Sydney

[adamkungl]

Although I think you're on the right track there, it's a little more nuanced than 3 categories.

For instance, Cronulla have complete control over upgrading their own ground, so it's just a matter of raising the funds & getting building consent. Manly would probably love to have that sort of control over their ground.

Then in the middle group, the Bulldogs & Panthers, enjoy the stability of having ONE Sydney home ground (the novelty of "back to Belmore" notwithstanding) - something that the Tigers and Dragons don't have, which is important in build a consistent home game fanbase.

Maybe what we need to do is look at each club in turn & detail
* Pros
* Cons
* Action that the club has taken to grow it's KPIs (juniors, membership, attendance, fan base, profit)
* Best strategy for the future (Merger? Relocation? Moving some/all home games in Sydney? Stadium redevelopment? Changing the junior catchment area? Stuff like that..)

I did a (obviously shallow) criteria calculation
Ranked the clubs based on
-Finances
-Support
-Player Development
-Stadium
-Success

The above rankings are how they come out.

 

[taipan]

Hard to argue. If you dropped one of the mostly safe clubs (and that would be a hard choice) and the bottom two and created a new Northern Sydney club it would pretty much sort Sydney landscape out and create two new expansion spots.

Agreee facetiously of course,and reduce interest in the NRL even further in Sydney, where the strength of your TV ratings is.

Oh and as Sloth pointed out in one of his articles ,poker machine revenues is effecting clubs like Canterbury as the economy tightens.Neither Manly or the Sharks are as dependent on poker machine revenue as others.And even the Eels needed their League clubs assistance to help pay teh football team shortfall.

Be very careful what you wish for.Especially if all Sydney clubs are financial.

 

[The Great Dane]

That they are, but it's not what you would call deep seated rl fans, more a picnic ,social outing situation.And the crowd reflects it.Newtown was in a completely different situation to any of the current Sydney clubs.The closest to it would be the Roosters .And who is going to relocate them?

Any current Sydney NRL club that went 2nd tier, would lose a hell of a lot of support.The crowds from memory that used to follow Qld cup in the past, pre Broncos were far far larger, than now.
Plus even now Queenslanders also give more support to lower tiers than Sydney does.

The biggest issue with crowds in Sydney are threefold, timeslots/stadiiums/transport to and from.

You could have 6 teams in Sydney now and the crowds at times would be rubbish, based on those factors.
Even Andrew Johns admitted whilst he supports rationalisation, he cannot fathom how it could be done.The NRL are aware of the angst that will follow, particularly in their major market.

Yes that's true, but why do they lose all that support?

Is it because they are playing in a second tier competition and Australian fans are an anomaly that just inherently refuse to support second tier competitions unlike people in the rest of the world that are totally comfortable supporting teams in lower tier comps.

Or could it be that sport in Australia is extremely top heavy, and after century of neglect by governing bodies in Australia second tier competitions get next to zero exposure in national media.

A team dropped down from the NRL to the NSW cup goes from having wide spread national coverage where all their games are broadcast and there's a never ending amount of media promoting their products, to getting effectively no coverage at all where even RL shows refuse to talk about them on a regular basis.
The lack of coverage and support is the problem, not the concept of a second tier competition it's self!

For example, imagine where the Newtown Jets would be if it was as easy to support them as it is to support an NRL or AFL team, and, for a start, all their games were broadcast!

 

[Walter sobchak]

IF (big IF) the NRL ever enforced a criteria to cut Sydney teams, the 2 losers are dead obvious and it isn't even a close call.

Elite:
Souths
Easts
Parramatta

Mostly Safe:
Penrith
Canterbury
Wests
St George-Illawarra

In danger:
Manly
Cronulla

Genuine question here from a Pom. Why are cronulla so vulnerable? Are they in debt? Poor grassroots(juniors) RL?

 

[adamkungl]

Genuine question here from a Pom. Why are cronulla so vulnerable? Are they in debt? Poor grassroots(juniors) RL?

Imo...

History of financial failures and struggling to make ends meet, in short, they have form.
Recent history of heavy financial penalties for cheating effects their current financials and ability to get high value sponsorship.
Outer suburban location means limited government and corporate support.
Recently strong on the field but a history of underperforming with 2016 their first premiership in a 50+ year history
Their juniors are decent but not as big as others.
Size of fanbase based on memberships/crowds/ratings on the bottom end.

None of that would really matter if we all expect the NRL to stay exactly as is.
The danger for them is if the competition undergoes a period of strong growth. The new stadiums in central Sydney + stronger geographical locations and branding (eg. Sydney vs Cronulla) means that clubs like Parramatta, Souths, Roosters have a lot higher ceiling. Parramatta could average 25,000+ crowds while the suburban clubs would be far more limited by their stadiums.
At the very least, they would have to start moving big games to the city to keep up. And with the size of Sydney and frustrations of transport across town, this idea is also unpopular. So the club becomes stuck between a rock and a hard place.

 

[Walter sobchak]

Imo...

History of financial failures and struggling to make ends meet, in short, they have form.
Recent history of heavy financial penalties for cheating effects their current financials and ability to get high value sponsorship.
Outer suburban location means limited government and corporate support.
Recently strong on the field but a history of underperforming with 2016 their first premiership in a 50+ year history
Their juniors are decent but not as big as others.
Size of fanbase based on memberships/crowds/ratings on the bottom end.

None of that would really matter if we all expect the NRL to stay exactly as is.
The danger for them is if the competition undergoes a period of strong growth. The new stadiums in central Sydney + stronger geographical locations and branding (eg. Sydney vs Cronulla) means that clubs like Parramatta, Souths, Roosters have a lot higher ceiling. Parramatta could average 25,000+ crowds while the suburban clubs would be far more limited by their stadiums.
At the very least, they would have to start moving big games to the city to keep up. And with the size of Sydney and frustrations of transport across town, this idea is also unpopular. So the club becomes stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Ok. Thanks.

What’s the population/catchment area of cronulla and Sutherland? And is it growing like I’m led to believe areas like parramatta and Campbeltown?

 

[taipan]

Genuine question here from a Pom. Why are cronulla so vulnerable? Are they in debt? Poor grassroots(juniors) RL?

They are not in debt now.With money in the Bank est to be $18m, as a result of the finalisation of the development ,leaving the retail rental to the developers, leaving the ground for a couple of years so the developer can get work done quicker, and get a new Leagues club and any losses in the couple of years they are away from the ground covered by the developer.
Developers move in for the retail stage,that also includes 200 units ,and a hotel.

Leagues club paid for out of the $40 m they get from the developer ,as well as debt up to end of 2019.
Third biggest junior numbers in Sydney I understand.

 

[Walter sobchak]

They are not in debt now.With money in the Bank est to be $18m, as a result of the finalisation of the development ,leaving the retail rental to the developers, leaving the ground for a couple of years so the developer can get work done quicker, and get a new Leagues club and any losses in the couple of years they are away from the ground covered by the developer.
Developers move in for the retail stage,that also includes 200 units ,and a hotel.

Leagues club paid for out of the $40 m they get from the developer ,as well as debt up to end of 2019.
Third biggest junior numbers in Sydney I understand.

Shark park or whatever it’s called these days Is getting redeveloped?

 

[taipan]

Imo...

History of financial failures and struggling to make ends meet, in short, they have form.
Recent history of heavy financial penalties for cheating effects their current financials and ability to get high value sponsorship.
Outer suburban location means limited government and corporate support.
Recently strong on the field but a history of underperforming with 2016 their first premiership in a 50+ year history
Their juniors are decent but not as big as others.
Size of fanbase based on memberships/crowds/ratings on the bottom end.

None of that would really matter if we all expect the NRL to stay exactly as is.
The danger for them is if the competition undergoes a period of strong growth. The new stadiums in central Sydney + stronger geographical locations and branding (eg. Sydney vs Cronulla) means that clubs like Parramatta, Souths, Roosters have a lot higher ceiling. Parramatta could average 25,000+ crowds while the suburban clubs would be far more limited by their stadiums.
At the very least, they would have to start moving big games to the city to keep up. And with the size of Sydney and frustrations of transport across town, this idea is also unpopular. So the club becomes stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Juniors are about 3rd biggest In Sydney and no debt and $18m in the Bank, with a new League club in addition paid for.Debt which includes financial penalties covered.
Don't know where you get your info from.
Membership not much smaller than the high performing Roosters considering have all seater stadiums to assist, with junior numbers that leave the Roosters way in the shade.
they have already been guaranteed a$10-12m grant from the State govt from a Centre of Excellence..With plans to increase capacity and bring the ground up to NRL requirements.
Not as dependent on poker machine monies as others.because it wasn't there in large amounts.

Think you need to go though clubs in NSW and even Qld with financial issues

 

[taipan]

Shark park or whatever it’s called these days Is getting redeveloped?

Once the retail development, with 200 units and hotel and Leagues club rebuilt are all completed, according to the CEO Munro ,there are plans to get the ground up to NRL requirements.That no doubt is an absolute requirement.
First of all a Centre of Excellence which has already been given the approval of a $10-12m grant from the State Govt,as part of the ground development.

 

[Walter sobchak]

Once the retail development, with 200 units and hotel and Leagues club rebuilt are all completed, according to the CEO Munro ,there are plans to get the ground up to NRL requirements.That no doubt is an absolute requirement.
First of all a Centre of Excellence which has already been given the approval of a $10-12m grant from the State Govt,as part of the ground development.

Nice. Thanks.

Sounds like a club in a good place for the foreseeable future.

 

[mongoose]

Ok. Thanks.

What’s the population/catchment area of cronulla and Sutherland? And is it growing like I’m led to believe areas like parramatta and Campbeltown?

Phil Gould said on 100% footy their Leagues club doesn't generate as much revenue as some others due to being in a poor location. Not sure how accurate that is.

 

[Perth Red]

Do you think there's less value in a regional city than an outer suburb of Sydney?
Regional cities have their own cultural identity and pride, and a lot more room for growth over the next few decades than suburban Sydney.

I would question if there is enough corporate $'s based in those regional cities to generate the sponsorship and box sales needed. Having said that Cowboys seem to be managing it, but they are the only successful regional team there has been.

 

[Walter sobchak]

Would the NRL not be missing a trick if they didn’t move a club fulltime to the Campbeltown stadium with the growing population of the region and new A-league franchise MacAuthur bulls FC? Especially with the expected upgrade of the stadium?

 

[Perth Red]

Agreee facetiously of course,and reduce interest in the NRL even further in Sydney, where the strength of your TV ratings is.

Oh and as Sloth pointed out in one of his articles ,poker machine revenues is effecting clubs like Canterbury as the economy tightens.Neither Manly or the Sharks are as dependent on poker machine revenue as others.And even the Eels needed their League clubs assistance to help pay teh football team shortfall.

Be very careful what you wish for.Especially if all Sydney clubs are financial.

It actually isnt, regional NSW is re TV audience per population, Sydney TV audiences are pretty poor really (200-350k range) population size considered.

Most of the Sydney clubs rely on pokie machines, some like you said (eels, Panthers, Bulldogs etc) desperately so, though their revenue is pretty decent in other areas so one can only assume they must have massive football dept budgets. Financial stability is important but just one of the criteria that should be used in the cull.

 

[Stallion]

Yeah but that okay because St George isnt even a place as far as I know. Wollongong St George Dragons.

Lol. St George and the Dragon is a well known fable. That's a crucial link with why they resonate in the public eye along with the world top flight competition record of 11 years straight grand final victories. You toy with that you see how many fans you keep!

 

[Perth Red]

Would the NRL not be missing a trick if they didn’t move a club fulltime to the Campbeltown stadium with the growing population of the region and new A-league franchise MacAuthur bulls FC? Especially with the expected upgrade of the stadium?

If it was good business to do so then Wests would already be committing. At the moment the stadium is sht and the fans arent turning up so I guess it doesnt look very attractive to them at this point in time.

 

[Stallion]

You played the game mate - so don't go around accusing others' of being a union stooge. Grow up.

Lol. Did you play!?

 

[mongoose]

I would question if there is enough corporate $'s based in those regional cities to generate the sponsorship and box sales needed. Having said that Cowboys seem to be managing it, but they are the only successful regional team there has been.

How are the Cowboys any more successful than the Knights and Raiders?

 

[Walter sobchak]

If it was good business to do so then Wests would already be committing. At the moment the stadium is sht and the fans arent turning up so I guess it doesnt look very attractive to them at this point in time.

MacArthur FC have only just recently been accepted into the A-league haven’t they? So a potential stadium upgrade becomes a little bit more appealing. No?