1st Test: Australia v India @ Optus Stadium, PERTH Nov 22-26, 2024

[JJ]

What's the point about Berry? He never played at international level.

Think he spotted Lyon early, might be mistaken

 

[JJ]

Yep.

Clarke filled-in as captain for the final test of the 2010/11 Ashes after Ponting was ruled out due an injury. After the 2011 World Cup and mounting criticism in the media, Ponting stood down from the captaincy in all formats, hence Clarke's first test series as official captain was that 2011 tour of Sri Lanka where Lyon made his test debut.

Although some will say he was biased due to his close friendship with Clarke, I do agree with Warne's comments regarding one of the aspects he liked about Clarke's captaincy was his use of Lyon in attacking situations (e.g. field placings, when he chose to bowl Lyon etc).

Clarke didn't simply give Lyon a bowl either as a last resort or just so he could give the fast bowlers a rest, which is what Warne clearly implied about Ponting's use of spinners in the Cricket Legends interview. Jason Krezja had a frustrating experience regarding how he was told to bowl during the 2011 World Cup:

Why Jason Krejza never thought he was as good as he really was

The offspinner who took a dozen wickets on debut against India 12 years ago looks back at how it all went downhill from there

www.thecricketmonthly.com

Clarke was certainly a more inventive captain than Ponting and Waugh, guess the latter didn’t really need to be given the other worldly talent he had, I think Ponting was just continuing in that vein, but people got old and retired

 

[undertaker]

Regarding the top-order batting performances recently, it just got me thinking:

- Khawaja has gone 24 innings without a test century
- Smith has gone 22 innings
- Labuschagne has gone 17 innings (the purple patch is well and truly over for him, with his average now below 50).

To put that in perspective with other top-order batsmen from years gone by who managed to pull off a "career-saving" century after intense media scrutiny:

- Ricky Ponting went 33 innings without a test century until his 134 vs India in Sydney, 2012
- Matthew Hayden went 30 innings until his 138 vs England at The Oval, 2005
- Mike Hussey went 28 innings until his 121 vs England at The Oval, 2009
- David Warner went 27 innings until his 200 vs South Africa at Melbourne, 2022
- Mark Taylor went 24 innings until his 129 vs England at Edgbaston, 1997

So, Khawaja/Smith/Labuschagne are edging up into that category.

With continued poor batting performances this series, with the selectors bite the bullet and at least replace one of them?

 

[undertaker]

If I remember correctly the Australian team were in Adelaide before a tour of Sri Lanka. Clarke wanted a spinner to bowl a net session to him and was told the groundsman bowled offies for the shield side.

One net session later Clarke insisted Lyon be on the plane.

One of those rags to riches stories you hear about in sport. Going from being the local groundsman (whilst playing Shield cricket) to playing the highest level of cricket within a matter of weeks is something most could only dream of.

Although his career didn't go the same way as Lyon, Gavin Robertson's test debut comes to mind. Until he made his test debut on the 1998 tour of India, he only played one Shield game the previous summer whilst working full-time managing grocery shelves:

'You have no idea what you're doing here'

Like other Australian spinners in India, Gavin Robertson finished his tour with a good idea of how to bowl there. Somehow the lessons keep getting lost

www.espncricinfo.com

Similarly, Bryce McGain and Michael Beer can both thank Warney for their baggy green caps. Both of them made their test debut within weeks of Warne talking both of them up in the media.

 

[Marshall_magic]

One of those rags to riches stories you hear about in sport. Going from being the local groundsman (whilst playing Shield cricket) to playing the highest level of cricket within a matter of weeks is something most could only dream of.

Although his career didn't go the same way as Lyon, Gavin Robertson's test debut comes to mind. Until he made his test debut on the 1998 tour of India, he only played one Shield game the previous summer whilst working full-time managing grocery shelves:

'You have no idea what you're doing here'

Like other Australian spinners in India, Gavin Robertson finished his tour with a good idea of how to bowl there. Somehow the lessons keep getting lost

www.espncricinfo.com

Similarly, Bryce McGain and Michael Beer can both thank Warney for their baggy green caps. Both of them made their test debut within weeks of Warne talking both of them up in the media.

After Magill retired we went to Hogg as we knew he was an international standard white ball spinner. When he retired we had no clue what to do. Steve Smith debuted as a bowling all rounder, we also went to India with Cam White as our spinner batting 8. Hauritz had a short run as the spinner but Ponting could never really get the best out of average spinners.

As you mentioned there was an era where is Warne said he liked a bowler they were almost immediately called up, there was also times we picked someone to counter a key player (Doherty for KP). I doubt Lyon would have been the mainstay if Ponting was still captain when he came in.

 

[Fangs]

After Magill retired we went to Hogg as we knew he was an international standard white ball spinner. When he retired we had no clue what to do. Steve Smith debuted as a bowling all rounder, we also went to India with Cam White as our spinner batting 8. Hauritz had a short run as the spinner but Ponting could never really get the best out of average spinners.

As you mentioned there was an era where is Warne said he liked a bowler they were almost immediately called up, there was also times we picked someone to nter a key player (Doherty for KP). I doubt Lyon would have been the mainstay if Ponting was still captain when he came in.

Hautitz! He wasn't that bad.

I remember that tour with Cam White. We needed more overseas from the spinners. Brett Lee wanted a word when punter wouldn't bowl the pacers when our over rate was slow.

 

[TheParraboy]

Missed the last 2 sessions

Pretty depressing by the looks

India lead by 223, all 10 wkts in hand. 3 days left

India will bat all day tomorrow and into day 4 , can’t see us bowling them out. Add another 350 I’d imagine

We could be chasing 550-600 to win with around 5 sessions to bat

Thank f..k I won’t see much action tomorrow. Gonna be a looooong day

 

[undertaker]

After Magill retired we went to Hogg as we knew he was an international standard white ball spinner. When he retired we had no clue what to do. Steve Smith debuted as a bowling all rounder, we also went to India with Cam White as our spinner batting 8. Hauritz had a short run as the spinner but Ponting could never really get the best out of average spinners.

If my memory serves me correctly:

- MacGill was first pick to replace Warney for the home test series vs Sri Lanka in 2007. Unfortunately, by this stage, MacGill's best years were behind him due to several knee and finger injuries.

- Hogg was called out of test oblivion to replace MacGill for the 2007/08 Border-Gavaskar Trophy after MacGill was ruled out due to another hand operation. Unfortunately, Hogg wasn't able to carry over his outstanding ODI form into the test arena

- After Hogg retired at the end of the 07/08 summer, MacGill was recalled for the 2008 tour of the Windies, but he subsequently retired after the 2nd test due to recurring injuries.

Post-MacGill, the front-line, specialist spinners the selectors experimented with (in order) before Nathan Lyon made his test debut 3 years after MacGill's retirement were Beau Casson, Cameron White, Jason Krezja, Nathan Hauritz, Bryce McGain, Steve Smith, Xavier Doherty and Michael Beer (if I've forgotten anyone, please let me know)

Of that list, Krezja was the spinner that would've definitely got an extended run in the test team had he played under a more supportive captain/coach/selectors. He was more naturally gifted than Lyon, but his time at test level was abruptly shortened after he was made the scapegoat in the aftermath of that infamous loss at the WACA, where South Africa chased down 414

 

[undertaker]

Thank f..k I won’t see much action tomorrow. Gonna be a looooong day

No need to worry.

Marnus googly-eyes will channel his inner Mike Atherton and manage to survive 200 balls or so for another hard-fought 2 runs!

 

[undertaker]

As you mentioned there was an era where is Warne said he liked a bowler they were almost immediately called up, there was also times we picked someone to counter a key player (Doherty for KP). I doubt Lyon would have been the mainstay if Ponting was still captain when he came in.

Doherty got selected in that 2010/11 Ashes due to his form in 2 ODIs vs Sri Lanka held just before the Ashes (took 4 wickets on ODI debut).

Picking test players on ODI form...like that was ever going to end well! Furthermore, whoever at CA thought it was a fantastic idea to have 1 T20I and 3 ODIs as sufficient preparation going into an Ashes series needed to be sacked on the spot!

And yes, I 100% agree with you that Lyon wouldn't have been a mainstay if he made his debut under Ponting's captaincy. Despite all the hard work and/or talent, you still need that bit of luck or fortune to go your way at crucial moments, and Lyon has definitely had that throughout his career, starting from when he debuted in that Sri Lankan tour. He came into the test team at the right time, then put in a string of solid performances over time that cemented his position in the starting XI and most importantly, never had any major injuries (most notably, shoulder/back/hand/knee for bowlers) that could potentially open the door for a contender to take his spot.

Since making his test debut, he's only missed 7 tests (played 130 out of a potential 137 tests), 3 of which were during the 2023 Ashes (calf injury), meaning he only missed 4 tests during his first 12 years in the test team, which all occurred during the first 2 years (due to selection omission)

 

[King-Gutho94]

Oh well those odi games against Pakistan were such a great idea.

We rested the team for the ODI at optus to basically give Pakistan the series and also wasted the opportunity instead to give our batters a practice run on the wicket being used for the 1st test.

Its almost feels like the braindead sports science and CA muppets got too clever for there own good. Too much rest for the batters and not enough preparation.

And dont get started on the BCCI conning the CA useless twits to avoid the Gabba in November

Its been the 1st test of the summer for yonks and always been a massive advantage starting there.

Yet we have now decided whenever India come out to never start there as they haven't played the 1st test at the Gabba since 2003.

 

[King-Gutho94]

This test has the same feeling as Ponting's farewell at the WACA back in 2012.

Similar low scoring 1st innings from both teams (225 vs 163), before South Africa - courtesy of the Amla/De Villiers partnership - batted Australia out of the contest in the 2nd innings.

Interestingly enough, Lyon and Starc are the only two Aussies from that test that are still going around

Yeah John Hastings opening the bowling at the WACA bowling 115km/h.

Thanks for reminding us what a special test match that was.

 

[King-Gutho94]

Hautitz! He wasn't that bad.

I remember that tour with Cam White. We needed more overseas from the spinners. Brett Lee wanted a word when punter wouldn't bowl the pacers when our over rate was slow.

Yeah 2008 series in India punter was bowling Mike Hussey after the tea break to get the over rates up.

We had India 6 down for not many and Harbhajan and Dhoni batted for 2 hours after this to basically bat us out of the game.

I remember AB absolutely losing his shit in the box over it that Punter was more worried about not getting a suspension so he could play the 1st test against Kiwis at the Gabba a few weeks later then just trying to Bowl India out we had them 6 down into the tail.

 

[Marshall_magic]

Yeah John Hastings opening the bowling at the WACA bowling 115km/h.

Thanks for reminding us what a special test match that was.

When we decided to rest our whole pace attack for a deciding test at the waca. Against the Saffas who most certainly did not rest their all star pace attack.

And CA were surprised it didn’t work

 

[Bazal]

Yeah 2008 series in India punter was bowling Mike Hussey after the tea break to get the over rates up.

We had India 6 down for not many and Harbhajan and Dhoni batted for 2 hours after this to basically bat us out of the game.

I remember AB absolutely losing his shit in the box over it that Punter was more worried about not getting a suspension so he could play the 1st test against Kiwis at the Gabba a few weeks later then just trying to Bowl India out we had them 6 down into the tail.

Cardiff

No further comment

 

[King-Gutho94]

Cardiff

No further comment

Yeah Punter had some shockers as a captain.

Better leader and man manager behind the scenes.

Tactically though for a bloke whose nickname was Punter and loved a punt was very conservative which most found quite surprising.

 

[AlwaysGreen]

We underestimated India, pure and simple. Came to Perth and just thought they'd crumble (which they did) then our magnificent batting line up would just blast them out of the park.
Unfortunately our batting line up isn't magnificent.
Khawaja: patient and will probably score a hundred in this series but he is 38.
McSweeney: debut
Labuschagne: needs to stop believing he's the new Smith. He's a good player, not a great one.
Smith: has become a parody of his old self. I can see him retiring at the end of the Ashes, hopefully he finds some sanity and form.
Head: will always attack which won't always pay off. Might need a plan B
Marsh: a poor man's Green. He's not an allrounder he's a batsmen who averages 30 who can bowl a bit. Needs a plan A.
Carey: needs to stop trying to hit every ball. He needs to hang around more with the lower order.

We've relied on a very good bowling line up to paper over our batting weaknesses. What happens when that group of bowlers starts retiring and are replaced by those that aren't as good.......

 

[hineyrulz]

Oh well as long as the boys are ready for the big beat off whats the big deal???

 

[hineyrulz]

Yeah Punter had some shockers as a captain.

Better leader and man manager behind the scenes.

Tactically though for a bloke whose nickname was Punter and loved a punt was very conservative which most found quite surprising.

Nailed Ponting's captaincy perfectly, tactically inept. Cummins is very similar, well liked and a good leader but quite negative and tactically average. We've played all our cricket quite negatively since the retirement of Clarke.

 

[hineyrulz]

Not all on him though, coaches have a big say

Captains don't even captain anymore, you can tell this is a team captained by committee.