2012 NSW soo side..

[Gippsy]

I wouldn't discount Sterlings opinion too quickly, either. He knows his stuff & is passionate about beating the floggers from Qld.

But, I still think it's essential to throw in some young guns to build a future team around. I'd be finding spots for Sims, T Williams & Woods as well as Tamou & Hinchcliffe.

Hayne, on current form is a risk and although I love B Morris he has some mistakes in his game. What about McManus if we are looking for a specialist winger?

 

[Bretto]

Peter Sterling. His side would be ok without Crayon

I usually take Peter Sterling pretty seriously and think he's got a good footy brain. But that comment is the exact opposite of what Creagh is.

 

[RWB]

Do you mean which backrower plays centre field in defense? Or do you mean who wears the 13 on their back? I'm just really unsure of your question.

I think we can select Bird, Watmough, Lewis and Stewart in the same side. It'd mean probably Tony Williams missing out or going with only Gallen and one other specialist prop up front.

I think Bird, Stewart and Lewis can handle defensive workloads in the middle - they are not shirt grabbers. Lewis and Stewart often make 40 tackles a game and Bird ain't no slouch. Only Watmough has questions over his defence at times. Tamou, and Mannah are two big guys in the middle both capable of making 25+ tackles in only 30-40 minutes. Check their stats - huge workloads in defence.

If all 4 are selected i'd have Stewart at lock playing on the right, and i'd have Lewis and Bird interchanging between the middle and left as both seem to do this for their club sides. I'd have Watmough come on and roam around the ruck as the battering ram with footwork he is.

My question was who'll play lock if you pick Stewart in the second row. Neither Bird, Stewart or Watmough up are to it defensively as shown in their club and past state of origin performances.

It's imperative that we have a strong defender there, I don't think anyone can deny this. As a result you'd have to drop one of Lewis or Watmough as I don't think you can carry two second rowers on the bench.

 

[RWB]

Stewart needs to be on the right to ask questions of the QLD backline defence.

Bird might make an easy 100 m in a game, but Stewart will get the ball from Carney, and be able to draw centres and put the NSW backs into space -- something that no other NSW backrower can do as well.

The creating needs to be left up to the spine, QLD don't need creators in their backrow. We didn't need creators in ours when we were winning, why all of a sudden has this changed? The formula for winning state of origin is pretty simple you need hard workers in the backrow, where's the proof that says otherwise?

 

[CliffyIsGod]

The creating needs to be left up to the spine, QLD don't need creators in their backrow. We didn't need creators in ours when we were winning, why all of a sudden has this changed? The formula for winning state of origin is pretty simple you need hard workers in the backrow, where's the proof that says otherwise?

That's partly because Qld have a spine that has consisted of Lockyer, Cronk and Thurston. NSW hasn't.

Manly have a rep quality half/five eigth (if DCE was from NSW, we wouldn't be considering Pearce) and Stewart still flourishes in giving great ball to Lyon and Wolfman (with Brett chiming in as well, which looks like the case for NSW as well)

 

[Tiger Hawk]

The formula for winning Origin is having the best players that play the best together. None of this hard workers in the backrow nonsense. If they're the best players that mesh with the team and play to the coach's structure, and they happen to be hard workers, then so be it.

If you're concerned with playing someone in the middle of the park defensively to get through the work, shift Gallen to lock and bring in another prop. So a pack of:

8. Tamou
9. Farah
10. Mannah
11. Stewart (right)
12. Lewis (left)
13. Gallen (middle)

14. Watmough (middle / roam)
15. Sims (right / middle)
16. Williams (left / middle)
17. Bird / Hinchcliffe / Woods - depending on what you want from the fourth bench spot.

I personally don't see an issue with starting Watmough in the middle defensively and having Sims, Williams & Tamou to come off the bench, with Gallen having spells as the third tight / middle forward.

 

[CliffyIsGod]

I like that, TH.

 

[RWB]

That's partly because Qld have a spine that has consisted of Lockyer, Cronk and Thurston. NSW hasn't.

Manly have a rep quality half/five eigth (if DCE was from NSW, we wouldn't be considering Pearce) and Stewart still flourishes in giving great ball to Lyon and Wolfman (with Brett chiming in as well, which looks like the case for NSW as well)

QLD's spine is only relevant if they can win the forward battle, in game 2 last year we dominated their pack. Not one of their front rowers made over 100m, the result?

If you look back through the history of SOO the one constant is that the winning side always consists of a hard working backrow and strong metre eating props. Think back to Kennedy, Fitzgibbon, Ryan, Hindmarsh etc.

None of them tried to do the jobs of the halves. They tackled their hearts out and kept hitting up the football, exactly what Myles, Johnson, Harrison, Thaiday & Parker have been doing for QLD over their 6 year dominance.

I mean where's your proof that a hard working backrow isn't the answer and where's your proof that having a ball playing backrower is? I extend this question to Tiger Hawk who thinks this is nonsense.

 

[Tiger Hawk]

Scott Hill playing lock in 2000 during that record breaking series comes to mind.....

 

[RWB]

For what it's worth our options at lock;

Tackling Efficiency

NSW
Glenn Stewart - 86%
Anthony Watmough - 88%
Luke Lewis - 89%
Greg Bird - 86%
Shaun Fensom - 96%
Paul Gallen - 94%

QLD
Corey Parker - 94%
Ashley Harrison - 94%
Nate Myles - 93%
Dallas Johnson - 94%

 

[CliffyIsGod]

QLD's spine is only relevant if they can win the forward battle, in game 2 last year we dominated their pack. Not one of their front rowers made over 100m, the result?

If you look back through the history of SOO the one constant is that the winning side always consists of a hard working backrow and strong metre eating props. Think back to Kennedy, Fitzgibbon, Ryan, Hindmarsh etc.

None of them tried to do the jobs of the halves. They tackled their hearts out and kept hitting up the football, exactly what Myles, Johnson, Harrison, Thaiday & Parker have been doing for QLD over their 6 year dominance.

I mean where's your proof that a hard working backrow isn't the answer and where's your proof that having a ball playing backrower is? I extend this question to Tiger Hawk who thinks this is nonsense.

All those teams you talked about had Lockyers/Thurstons/Cronks/John's/Fittlers in them.

We have Carney and Pearce ffs.

We could have every hardworking plodder of a second row this series and we would be lucky to score a try.

We need to actually score points and and completely Bird won't help you do that.

 

[Tiger Hawk]

And I might add that picking your hard working back rowers has achieved SFA over the past 6 years. This is the complete list of second-row and lock forwards over that period (starters only):

Steve Simpson
Nathan Hindmarsh
Luke O'Donnell
Andrew Ryan
Willie Mason
Paul Gallen
Ryan Hoffman
Craig Fitzgibbon
Trent Waterhouse
Ben Creagh
Anthony Laffranchi
Anthony Watmough
Luke Lewis
Greg Bird
Beau Scott
Glenn Stewart

With the exception of Bird (4 starts), Stewart (1 start) & Lewis (1 start), who I'd class as a combination of ball-playing & line-running (to varying degrees) forwards, all the others I would class as either line-running or defensive forwards. And it's got us nowhere.

I agree there needs to be balance and you can certainly have too many ball-players. But asserting a starting back-row of Stewart, Watmough & Lewis is unbalanced I just don't agree with. Time will tell who Ricky picks and how they perform.

 

[RWB]

All those teams you talked about had Lockyers/Thurstons/Cronks/John's/Fittlers in them.

We have Carney and Pearce ffs.

We could have every hardworking plodder of a second row this series and we would be lucky to score a try.

We need to actually score points and Bird won't help you do that.

When our forward pack got on top last year Soward & Pearce was enough to get us a win. Why would the inclusions of Stewart, an infinitely better fullback than Mini, Carney a far superior player to Soward and Farah a far more creative player than Ennis mean that we can't do it again if our forward pack gets on top?

Also correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Bird set up the potential match winning try in game 1? Although it's irrelevant to why he should be pick, his main role is to take relief hit ups and give us strong go forward like he has year after year. Although it's becoming apparent performances at origin level mean almost nothing to you.

 

[RWB]

And I might add that picking your hard working back rowers has achieved SFA over the past 6 years. This is the complete list of second-row and lock forwards over that period (starters only):

Steve Simpson
Nathan Hindmarsh
Luke O'Donnell
Andrew Ryan
Willie Mason
Paul Gallen
Ryan Hoffman
Craig Fitzgibbon
Trent Waterhouse
Ben Creagh
Anthony Laffranchi
Anthony Watmough
Luke Lewis
Greg Bird
Beau Scott
Glenn Stewart

With the exception of Bird (4 starts), Stewart (1 start) & Lewis (1 start), who I'd class as a combination of ball-playing & line-running (to varying degrees) forwards, all the others I would class as either line-running or defensive forwards. And it's got us nowhere.

I agree there needs to be balance and you can certainly have too many ball-players. But asserting a starting back-row of Stewart, Watmough & Lewis is unbalanced I just don't agree with. Time will tell who Ricky picks and how they perform.

I'm not saying a hard working backrow is all you need to win a game of origin, I'm saying it's one piece and a very important piece at that. The biggest issue since 05 has been our prop rotations not our backrow, although it has continued to deteriorate to the point were' at now where people think we need them to be playmaking & creating for us.

Can you find me a team who relied on a backrow doing the creating for them as opposed to being hard workers, that was my question.

 

[CliffyIsGod]

I agree with that direct post above, RWB. If our props were chosen correctly and made meters, then I see no problem for Bird on one side, Stewart on the other and Lewis at lock. They will create space at least for a backline that isn't as good as QLD.

 

[Hutty1986]

When our forward pack got on top last year Soward & Pearce was enough to get us a win. Why would the inclusions of Stewart, an infinitely better fullback than Mini, Carney a far superior player to Soward and Farah a far more creative player than Ennis mean that we can't do it again if our forward pack gets on top?

Also correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Bird set up the potential match winning try in game 1? Although it's irrelevant to why he should be pick, his main role is to take relief hit ups and give us strong go forward like he has year after year. Although it's becoming apparent performances at origin level mean almost nothing to you.

:lol: That's a beauty.

Fair points otherwise, Bird should be a certainty. Risky offloads aside, he's rarely not among NSW's best

 

[Tiger Hawk]

Agree 100% on the props being our biggest issue over the years - nuffies like Perry, White, King et al just didn't do enough. I remember when Perry made a total of 38 metres in 31 minutes of game-time. What a useless sack of shit he was.

 

[RWB]

:lol: That's a beauty.

Fair points otherwise, Bird should be a certainty. Risky offloads aside, he's rarely not among NSW's best

It's not so much a criticism of Soward it's just the high opinion I hold of Carney. If he can stay out of the newspapers and continues to play the way he has been which he's certainly capable of I reckon people will start to hold him in the same regard as Thurston which I almost already do certainly in ability terms.

I'm probably one of Soward's biggest fans, have followed him since his Jersey Flegg days, watched him at Henson Park every week, constantly called for his inclusion into the Roosters side and still watch every game of his at the Dragons but even I can admit he's not in the same class as Carney.

 

[Hutty1986]

Agree 100% on the props being our biggest issue over the years - nuffies like Perry, White, King et al just didn't do enough. I remember when Perry made a total of 38 metres in 31 minutes of game-time. What a useless sack of shit he was.

I always thought that was a misprint. Unreal

 

[Hutty1986]

It's not so much a criticism of Soward it's just the high opinion I hold of Carney. If he can stay out of the newspapers and continues to play the way he has been which he's certainly capable of I reckon people will start to hold him in the same regard as Thurston which I almost already do certainly in ability terms.

I'm probably one of Soward's biggest fans, have followed him since his Jersey Flegg days, watched him at Henson Park every week, constantly called for his inclusion into the Roosters side and still watch every game of his at the Dragons but even I can admit he's not in the same class as Carney.

Everyone has witnessed what Carney has capable of (not so much in the grand final, where he wasn't sighted). It's a bit much to say Soward's not in the 'same class' when he's faster, has been more consistent, has a better kicking game and has achieved more at club and interstate level than Todd. No doubt Carney deseres the 6 jersey coming hs way, I hope he carves up the filthy toads