2014 Team

[maple_69]

Wah Cleary and Gus has too many players, who to choose. Christ we haven't had something this positive to argue about for a long time.

Of the side you posted franklin, I'd send Wes, Tighe, Smith and Humble back to Ron Massey, bring in Nabuli, Jennings, Cartwright and Foster. Those are the guys closest to getting a dig in first grade. Once we get injuries or underperforming players, they get a run of 4/5 games in the second half of the year and are ready to compete for a spot the next year.

I think the only players ready to step up full time are Nabuli, Cherrington, VTK and Foster.

 

[murraymob]

I don't see the path for the juniors others seem to so don't see any change. Aside from Robinson, Daniela, Austin and Ciraldo everyone at Windsor on the weekend will go around again next year. Add 6 new recruits. 20 or so F/T that couldn't play.

I think we will make the 8 next year which means team changes will be at a minimum. How long do you expect the 'talented kids' to stick around for? not just NYC but VTK also would be closer to NRL elsewhere as was the case when Jesse Sene-Lafao left.

We debuted 2 players in a re-building year. off the top of my Head Manly 8 and Melbourne 5 yet both were still top 4. So kids can do the depth job easily and then re-assess

to be fair jesse sene lafao never kicked on anyway at other clubs so clearly was never going to make first grade.We sometimes get a bit to far forward when looking at u20 kids .The gap from there to first grade is massive
I would not worry to much about cartwright his talent will push him past all the contenders

 

[chrisD]

Chris, the point I was making is that TVS is an exception and even so will have played reggies first. Last he year he played NSW cup, U20's and had a couple of first grade appearances. He is 20 years old, not 18. Cartwright will be 19 and will have a number of reggies games under his belt next year and I wouldn't be surprised if he gets a run in first grade for a couple of games. Papali had a similar development path at Canberra. He debuted at 19 and sat on the bench for half of his 14 games in 2011.

I am sure he will hit the gym big time in the off season and with that extra year under his belt, Cartwright will get a run.

No, what you did was bring up Gould's whole blooding them against men or they explode junk. Now, when was Papalii and Milford blooded against men? For how many games was Hiku blooded against men before he made his NRL debut? Sheck has played about the same amount of NSW cup as Cartwright, he went 20s, NSW cup NRL in the one season. From the nonsense Gould has sprouted if he had a hold of Milford's career he wouldn't be playing NRL yet and he wouldn't be a star and Papalii would sure as shit would not have developed into a SOO player.

 

[franklin2323]

Of the side you posted franklin, I'd send Wes, Tighe, Smith and Humble back to Ron Massey

The points quota in RM won't allow for that. I agree with who you say should be in. Cartwright is behind VTK & Cherrington (who won't even be FT).

Depth fine though 5 or so shouldn't be in the squad. I had a question mark on Humble & Wes for 2 years should of been 1 if any. We re-signed 3 30yos aside from Plum we didn't really need to.

I see us making the 8 though barring injuries to half the squad can't see anyone outside getting in. Sadly the bottom 3 or so shouldn't be in the squad.

 

[Pomoz]

No, what you did was bring up Gould's whole blooding them against men or they explode junk. Now, when was Papalii and Milford blooded against men? For how many games was Hiku blooded against men before he made his NRL debut? Sheck has played about the same amount of NSW cup as Cartwright, he went 20s, NSW cup NRL in the one season. From the nonsense Gould has sprouted if he had a hold of Milford's career he wouldn't be playing NRL yet and he wouldn't be a star and Papalii would sure as shit would not have developed into a SOO player.

Chris,who said they would explode? Sorry but all of the available data does not support your "Gus is clueless" theory. If it was only us holding back players then the average age of debutants would be higher and the number of debutants would be markedly higher at other clubs.

The facts, not my opinion, but the facts are that there are 550 players on average each season in the u20's. How many make their debut each year? Each year, on average, 60 players make their debut in the NRL. That is about 4 players a club. In 2011, 66 players made their debut and only 8 of them were 19 or younger. that is 0.5 players per club. 15 of the 66 were 20 years old. If we add all of the players together 20 years old or younger, that makes 23 players out of 550 who debut in first grade. That is 1.5 players per club. Put another way, less than 5% of the players in u20, make their debut. 43 out of 66 of the players who debuted in 2011 were 21 or older.

Are they being held back? The average career of a first grader is 43 games long. That is less than two seasons. With a career that short, surely there is a duty of care to give players every chance to be physically able to last as long as possible.

You may think Gus is an idiot, but NRL data shows that he is just following the trends already prevalent in the game. The trends are also supported by all the known science about physical maturity. Yes there is the odd exception who breaks the rule and you have named a couple, but they are just that, exceptions.

 

[franklin2323]

I don't think you can be successful over a sustained period without a strong club through all levels. The Bronco's were masters at bringing through youngsters and blooding them in the Origin period and then dropping them back down. A year or two later those juniors would become regular first graders. You can't buy success in the NRL because of the salary cap. Development is everything.

I am not saying we need a squad full of kids. 1 year of NSW Cup is enough time to judge them promote your top few players. End of the season re-assess and the same again.

VTK, Foster and Nabuli should be into the F/T squad not even the full strength team but intially depth players but we get a good look at them. Stats will say most will be duds but who is a star at the lower end of your squad? Most squads players 23,24,25 are really average so nothing is lost

 

[betcats]

Moylan and Anderson that was it for Debutants.

Smith, Kingston for starters.

Assume this is FG

Moylan
Mansour
Peachey
Whare
Simmons
Soward
Wallace
Kite
Kingston
Grant
Manu
Brown
Taylor

Sege
McKendry
Docker
Plum

Leaves NSW Cup:

Moss
Naiqama
Naiqama
Tighe
Roberts
John
Capewell
Anderson
Humble
Latimore
Cherrington
Robinson
Smith

So who wont play atleast for NSW Cup?

Apoligies, I was counting Roberts as well as a debut.

I dont think Kingston will figure as much as everyone thinks he will in FG, we were planning on letting him go.

I see what you are saying but competition for spots is usually a good thing, even in NSW cup.

There is still four bench spots for that NSW cup side, Foster and VTK will be is the side somewhere, Cartwright will spend plenty of time in that side as well.

Call it blind faith but I just can't see Gus neglecting talented kids like Cartwright VTK, Foster etc. We will have to what and see what happens I guess.

 

[franklin2323]

Apoligies, I was counting Roberts as well as a debut.

I dont think Kingston will figure as much as everyone thinks he will in FG, we were planning on letting him go.

I see what you are saying but competition for spots is usually a good thing, even in NSW cup.

There is still four bench spots for that NSW cup side, Foster and VTK will be is the side somewhere, Cartwright will spend plenty of time in that side as well.

Call it blind faith but I just can't see Gus neglecting talented kids like Cartwright VTK, Foster etc. We will have to what and see what happens I guess.

Fair enough. Don't get me wrong all our recruits look like they will be great signings. I can see us making the 8 though have a problem with as stocking up depth when we have internal quality. NYC and NSW Cup were 5th last year. GF this year as in my post above surely 2-3 is good enough to be in the F/T squad. Full strength team they may not make but a good look at the players

 

[chrisD]

Chris,who said they would explode? Sorry but all of the available data does not support your "Gus is clueless" theory. If it was only us holding back players then the average age of debutants would be higher and the number of debutants would be markedly higher at other clubs.

The facts, not my opinion, but the facts are that there are 550 players on average each season in the u20's. How many make their debut each year? Each year, on average, 60 players make their debut in the NRL. That is about 4 players a club. In 2011, 66 players made their debut and only 8 of them were 19 or younger. that is 0.5 players per club. 15 of the 66 were 20 years old. If we add all of the players together 20 years old or younger, that makes 23 players out of 550 who debut in first grade. That is 1.5 players per club. Put another way, less than 5% of the players in u20, make their debut. 43 out of 66 of the players who debuted in 2011 were 21 or older.

Are they being held back? The average career of a first grader is 43 games long. That is less than two seasons. With a career that short, surely there is a duty of care to give players every chance to be physically able to last as long as possible.

You may think Gus is an idiot, but NRL data shows that he is just following the trends already prevalent in the game. The trends are also supported by all the known science about physical maturity. Yes there is the odd exception who breaks the rule and you have named a couple, but they are just that, exceptions.

What are you on about FFS. The primary reason for so few U20 players making the NRL or the length of NRL players careers is their ability and simple mathematics, not some crazed body maturity nonsense. There is no trend, there are limited spots in first grade and NRL players of a standard will play until they're well over 30, obviously only small amounts of the U20s can ever play NRL unless the amount of teams grows exponentially.

Now what do you mean if it was only us holding them back? You're repeating Gould's line that the young players need to have played against "grown bodies", and I've given you multiple examples, backs and forwards, who debuted with their club giving no regards to this Gould principle, and for the betterment of those players and the club. Brooks is another, wasn't he MOM on debut as well? Another super talent but younger and not as good as Evans who we've f**ked off without ever seeing a first grade game. Players in other clubs do get moved from U20s to first grade with little or no experience against "grown bodies" if they're special talents as Cartwright is.

 

[betcats]

Brooks played NSW cup, and he is widely considered the best young half prospect in the game.

 

[chrisD]

Brooks played NSW cup, and he is widely considered the best young half prospect in the game.

About as much as Cartwright, and anyone who saw Brooks and Evans play against each other would know who was the better player.

 

[betcats]

We couldnt play Cartwright because of the second tier salary cap. If you think Carty will not play FG for Penrith you have rocks in your head.

Tigers were bottom four and could only get an exemption play Brooks once and that was because they were playing another bottom four side.

 

[chrisD]

FFS, the argument people are making is Cartwright is not ready for first grade, I am pointing out that despite the Gould mantra bullshit other young star players of Cartwright's age and skill level with less experience against adults are debuting with fantastic results.

 

[Kilkenny]

FFS, the argument people are making is Cartwright is not ready for first grade, I am pointing out that despite the Gould mantra bullshit other young star players of Cartwright's age and skill level with less experience against adults are debuting with fantastic results.

Whether Cartwright is or isn't ready for first grade is a matter of opinion. If we did not have the issues with our secondary cap there is no doubt you could have debuted him at the back end of the season just finished. At the same time he is not yet ready to be a regular member of the top 17 and still has some work to do on his game.

Gould & Cleary know what they are doing in relation to the development of Bryce Cartwright and are looking after his interests\career in the long term. I will be surprised if Bryce makes more than a handful of appearances in the top grade in 2014 and I don't expect to see him fully ready for the top grade until 2015.

 

[franklin2323]

We couldnt play Cartwright because of the second tier salary cap.

Like VTK last year. Given he wont be in the F/T squad next year could be 3 years we made that error - FTR I don't think Cartwright should play but VTK should

 

[betcats]

FFS, the argument people are making is Cartwright is not ready for first grade, I am pointing out that despite the Gould mantra bullshit other young star players of Cartwright's age and skill level with less experience against adults are debuting with fantastic results.

Honestly I think Cartwight probably can handle some FG aswell though I wouldnt of said that until he was tested in NSW cup, he would be a liability defensively though still i think. Def not ready for full time FG imo.

And just another point I think every example you gave is a polynesian player who generally physically mature faster then others.

 

[betcats]

Like VTK last year. Given he wont be in the F/T squad next year could be 3 years we made that error - FTR I don't think Cartwright should play but VTK should

I am a bit worried about that as well tbh but its just a matter of fingers crossed injuries aren't as bad as last season.

 

[Pomoz]

What are you on about FFS. The primary reason for so few U20 players making the NRL or the length of NRL players careers is their ability and simple mathematics, not some crazed body maturity nonsense. There is no trend, there are limited spots in first grade and NRL players of a standard will play until they're well over 30, obviously only small amounts of the U20s can ever play NRL unless the amount of teams grows exponentially.

Now what do you mean if it was only us holding them back? You're repeating Gould's line that the young players need to have played against "grown bodies", and I've given you multiple examples, backs and forwards, who debuted with their club giving no regards to this Gould principle, and for the betterment of those players and the club. Brooks is another, wasn't he MOM on debut as well? Another super talent but younger and not as good as Evans who we've f**ked off without ever seeing a first grade game. Players in other clubs do get moved from U20s to first grade with little or no experience against "grown bodies" if they're special talents as Cartwright is.

Chris, take a chill pill FFS, its just a debate. "Crazed body maturity nonsense". Look if you are going to say something, provide some evidence of how athletes under 20 dominate sprinting, NFL, power lifting and so on. If you can provide some facts instead of making smart arse comments, we could have a debate. You want to ignore medical science in relation to when bodies stop growing and maturing go ahead, enjoy your ignorance. Men can keep growing until they are 25. That's why the u20's look skinnier and less physically developed than first graders. Although, some of them are obviously big and strong enough, many just aren't.

As you have said, another reason is their ability has not reached its peak. There is a view that it takes 10,000 hours of practice to obtain mastery over a chosen pursuit. Although, there are some scientists who believe that it may take even longer than that. Obviously, the older you are the more likely you are to have racked up more hours of practice and got better at your sport.

You keep raising the fact that you can quote a young player who has made an impact at a you age. Your generalisation does not mean that since Luke Brooks debuted early, the whole physical maturity argument is "a myth". Your logic is "Brad Fittler debuted at 16, therefore all players can debut at 16 without adverse consequences". I wish you were right and then we could be rushing the many juniors we have into first grade. They would be cheap too. Unfortunately, no club seems to do that. I wonder why?

 

[chrisD]

Chris, take a chill pill FFS, its just a debate. "Crazed body maturity nonsense". Look if you are going to say something, provide some evidence of how athletes under 20 dominate sprinting, NFL, power lifting and so on. If you can provide some facts instead of making smart arse comments, we could have a debate. You want to ignore medical science in relation to when bodies stop growing and maturing go ahead, enjoy your ignorance. Men can keep growing until they are 25. That's why the u20's look skinnier and less physically developed than first graders. Although, some of them are obviously big and strong enough, many just aren't.

As you have said, another reason is their ability has not reached its peak. There is a view that it takes 10,000 hours of practice to obtain mastery over a chosen pursuit. Although, there are some scientists who believe that it may take even longer than that. Obviously, the older you are the more likely you are to have racked up more hours of practice and got better at your sport.

You keep raising the fact that you can quote a young player who has made an impact at a you age. Your generalisation does not mean that since Luke Brooks debuted early, the whole physical maturity argument is "a myth". Your logic is "Brad Fittler debuted at 16, therefore all players can debut at 16 without adverse consequences". I wish you were right and then we could be rushing the many juniors we have into first grade. They would be cheap too. Unfortunately, no club seems to do that. I wonder why?

Facts? Wtf, you're the one who just wrote a fantasy about how body maturity is why so few U20s don't make it in the NRL seemingly in complete ignorance of the mathematical impossibility of more coming through. Why would I bother giving you examples of sprinting, NFL and other shit when I just gave you NRL examples? Examples in which the circumstances mirror that of Cartwright. As explained and backed by examples the idea Cartwright or any player has to have some kind of physical peak in NSW cup before they're ready for first grade is quite obviously bullshit and in referenced cases would have been detrimental to not only the club but the player's development.

The question should only ever be is if Cartwright is one of the best 17.

 

[Pomoz]

Facts? Wtf, you're the one who just wrote a fantasy about how body maturity is why so few U20s don't make it in the NRL seemingly in complete ignorance of the mathematical impossibility of more coming through. Why would I bother giving you examples of sprinting, NFL and other shit when I just gave you NRL examples? Examples in which the circumstances mirror that of Cartwright. As explained and backed by examples the idea Cartwright or any player has to have some kind of physical peak in NSW cup before they're ready for first grade is quite obviously bullshit and in referenced cases would have been detrimental to not only the club but the player's development.

The question should only ever be is if Cartwright is one of the best 17.

Chris, for the record, I didn't say that body maturity is the only reason there are so few u20's making their debut. As stated in my last post, mastery of the skills is another reason.

In spite of my "mathematical ignorance", as you put it, your logic about numbers doesn't make sense. I only referred to the 66 players that debuted. Therefore, there were 66 spots up for grabs, but only 8 players that qualify for u20's filled a place. That is 12%. Why are the players making there debut mainly 20 or older?

It is not about available slots, its about ability. Clubs just want to win and at the lowest cost possible. If they could fill their teams with 19 year olds and be competitive, they would. And yet there are 550 players in the u20's and only 8 get to debut, that tells you that the other 542 aren't good enough. You believe it is only because of their ability and I believe it is both ability and physical maturity. You can throw around the insults "fantasy" "bullshit", but the number "8" says you are wrong.

I agree the question should be whether Cartwright is in the best 17 and given his age, part of that assessment will be whether his body is physically ready for the rigours of first grade.