2014 Team

[franklin2323]

How did it hurt Moylan to be held back? He was MOTM on debut, if anything that proves to me holding him back was the right thing to do.

How much did he improve from the extra games in NSW Cup? Hard to say I didn't see any difference between him in Round 2 this year and pre-injury last year.

Cartwright is different though Cherrington and VTK do the little stuff he doesnt. Last week perfect example we were struggling to stop Canberra's momentum needed a big run or big hit he was MIA. He's 18 so will develop further.

 

[forby]

And Moylan could have been smashed and found wanting. The club has player welfare to look after as well. He was untried at senior level and they needed to develop and judge him before gambling a top 25 spot on him.

 

[chrisD]

You should listen to Gus's podcast on this issue.

I've heard enough of Gould's bullshit on the issue. One week he's saying Moylan is a long ways off first grade, a few weeks later he's mom on debut. Now it's all his genius master plan. Injury is straight up luck, was Milford introduced too early to "grown bodies" too? Sheck? Hiku?

 

[franklin2323]

And Moylan could have been smashed and found wanting. The club has player welfare to look after as well. He was untried at senior level and they needed to develop and judge him before gambling a top 25 spot on him.

What did we have to lose by doing that? It's not like we punted GI from the 1 or something. Like with Nathan Smith I am assuming he's 2nd tier but his NSW Cup spot could go to someone else.

 

[franklin2323]

Dropping Cartwight or Moylan directly into First Grade is exactly the wrong thing to do. I don't disagree that he is already better than the likes of Ciraldo and Newton, but physically his body just isn't ready for the collisions yet. I expect Cartwright will get a lot more more games in reggies next year and maybe a game or two in first grade.

VTK Has had a year in NYC so why was Nathan Smith re-signed? Even 20 of the 60 mins Kingston's lock can be used for VTK or Cherrington to get a game

As for Gus. Listen to him commentate contradicts what we get told. ie Speed is needed etc. Look at our backline very slow. Other cases like that. He also said VTK was getting a game or 2 last year didn't happen.

 

[chrisD]

And Moylan could have been smashed and found wanting. The club has player welfare to look after as well. He was untried at senior level and they needed to develop and judge him before gambling a top 25 spot on him.

They were trying to let him go before he had even had a first grade game. It's like Gould didn't get to micro manage his growth from the beginning with his genius "grown bodies" strategy and so he was worthless, same with Austin.

 

[Big Mick]

FMD we are still going on about Moylan for the start of the year?

Everyone wanted Moylan there to start the year. Coaches didn't. In hindsight it was a mistake. But if he came in at the start of the year maybe he could have played like shit too. Looking back at it constantly does no one any good. Got to let it go eventually the season is done ffs.

 

[chrisD]

Got to not repeat the mistakes of the past is what we have to do.

 

[franklin2323]

Got to not repeat the mistakes of the past is what we have to do.

We did. VTK can't play 2012 due to Salary Cap. 12 months later guess what same problem..

 

[betcats]

They were trying to let him go before he had even had a first grade game. It's like Gould didn't get to micro manage his growth from the beginning with his genius "grown bodies" strategy and so he was worthless, same with Austin.

How do you know that?

 

[Pomoz]

I've heard enough of Gould's bullshit on the issue. One week he's saying Moylan is a long ways off first grade, a few weeks later he's mom on debut. Now it's all his genius master plan. Injury is straight up luck, was Milford introduced too early to "grown bodies" too? Sheck? Hiku?

Chris, the bloke has won premierships and SOO's.He has been an integral part of the dynasty built at the Roosters so I must admit I'm prepared to listen to what he has to say. Clearly, you are not a fan of Gus and let's be honest his style is polarising. But, everything he says makes sense on this issue. When you analyse the data that the NRL released showing the average ages of debutants and the number of games played by the average first grader, it all points to the same conclusion: Most players shouldn't be playing first grade until they are in their 20's. You quote a few players who have made the jump, but there are two ways to look at that:

Firstly, did they not play reggies for a large number of games first? Remember, Gus isn't saying that age is a factor that means absolutely nobody can play first grade under the age of 21, but they have to do a spell in reggies to understand whats required to be in first grade. The Roosters have been good at letting youngsters play in reggies and then a few games in first grade before dropping them back. His point about Austin, Sjeika and Moylan was that the club failed to do that until it was too late. All three players have had bad career threatening injuries.

Secondly, you quote one or two players yet there are three hundred players playing u20's and only a handful debut in first grade across all 16 clubs. That means it just isn't Gus who won't throw in youngsters, the other coaches aren't doing it either. Other coaches have also come out publicly and lamented the fact that u20's doesn't prepare the players for first grade. Those you have quoted are also backs, not forwards like Cartwright.

You call it luck, but its a medical fact that mens bodies don't reach maturity until they are in their twenties. A glance at the u20's and first grade reveals a significant difference in body size. Everybody's different and we should allow for the exceptions like TVS and Brad Fittler, but throwing in youngsters so they can get smashed to bits, doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[franklin2323]

How do you know that?

Moylan said so in an interview. He was told to look elsewhere as he wont be re-signed

 

[betcats]

Fair enough, i missed that. No ones perfect I guess.

Anyway none of that really bothers me because imo anyone who thinks we arent developing our juniors is being stupid because both of our lower grade sides are playing in GFs this weekend, on top of that our FG side performed pretty good this season, beyond most peoples expectations.

Honestly Franklin and Chris I find you two being so critical of Gus and Ivan over what happened with Moylan the last year or two and what may or may not happen with Cartwright in the upcoming year a bit ridiculous. Plenty of younger guys have got a shot under Gus and Ivan, and plenty more will. There is more talent at the club then I can remember for a long time, things are looking bright.

 

[chrisD]

You quote a few players who have made the jump, but there are two ways to look at that:

Firstly, did they not play reggies for a large number of games first?

No I didn't quote them based on age, I quoted them based on having had no or very little experience playing against men before playing NRL. They're also freakish talents, just like Cartwright. Papalii is another, debut under 20 with no experience against men, now a SOO rep at 21. Injuries can and will happen to anyone at any point.

 

[franklin2323]

Fair enough, i missed that. No ones perfect I guess.

Anyway none of that really bothers me because imo anyone who thinks we arent developing our juniors is being stupid because both of our lower grade sides are playing in GFs this weekend, on top of that our FG side performed pretty good this season, beyond most peoples expectations.

Honestly Franklin and Chris I find you two being so critical of Gus and Ivan over what happened with Moylan the last year or two and what may or may not happen with Cartwright in the upcoming year a bit ridiculous. Plenty of younger guys have got a shot under Gus and Ivan, and plenty more will. There is more talent at the club then I can remember for a long time, things are looking bright.

I don't see the path for the juniors others seem to so don't see any change. Aside from Robinson, Daniela, Austin and Ciraldo everyone at Windsor on the weekend will go around again next year. Add 6 new recruits. 20 or so F/T that couldn't play.

I think we will make the 8 next year which means team changes will be at a minimum. How long do you expect the 'talented kids' to stick around for? not just NYC but VTK also would be closer to NRL elsewhere as was the case when Jesse Sene-Lafao left.

We debuted 2 players in a re-building year. off the top of my Head Manly 8 and Melbourne 5 yet both were still top 4. So kids can do the depth job easily and then re-assess

 

[betcats]

It was more then 2 debuts for us.

The path is 20s, Reserve grade, First grade. I dont know what you dont see. Should we have not signed Taylor and Peachy so we have open FG spots to try out VTK and Cartwright?

Being critical of what hasnt happened yet is as i said, ridiculous. Cartwright will get a shot when the coach thinks he is ready, he wont be going anywhere. Just because we resigned a guy like nathan smith doesnt meen he is garaunteed to play FG. VTK will get a shot too, I am confident of that, probably before Cartwright.

From the get go Gus has said he we re-build us around our juniors.

Besides VTK, Carty and Cherrington(not a junior but I think he will get a shot) what other Juniors do you think is ready for FG? Moss maybe but he is small and is the type of player that will benefit from spending time in reserve grade, other then that who? Jennings?

 

[franklin2323]

It was more then 2 debuts for us.

The path is 20s, Reserve grade, First grade. I dont know what you dont see. Should we have not signed Taylor and Peachy so we have open FG spots to try out VTK and Cartwright?

Being critical of what hasnt happened yet is as i said, ridiculous. Cartwright will get a shot when the coach thinks he is ready, he wont be going anywhere. Just because we resigned a guy like nathan smith doesnt meen he is garaunteed to play FG. VTK will get a shot too, I am confident of that, probably before Cartwright.

From the get go Gus has said he we re-build us around our juniors.

Besides VTK, Carty and Cherrington(not a junior but I think he will get a shot) what other Juniors do you think is ready for FG? Moss maybe but he is small and is the type of player that will benefit from spending time in reserve grade, other then that who? Jennings?

Moylan and Anderson that was it for Debutants.

Smith, Kingston for starters.

Assume this is FG

Moylan
Mansour
Peachey
Whare
Simmons
Soward
Wallace
Kite
Kingston
Grant
Manu
Brown
Taylor

Sege
McKendry
Docker
Plum

Leaves NSW Cup:

Moss
Naiqama
Naiqama
Tighe
Roberts
John
Capewell
Anderson
Humble
Latimore
Cherrington
Robinson
Smith

So who wont play atleast for NSW Cup?

 

[Pomoz]

I don't see the path for the juniors others seem to so don't see any change. Aside from Robinson, Daniela, Austin and Ciraldo everyone at Windsor on the weekend will go around again next year. Add 6 new recruits. 20 or so F/T that couldn't play.

I think we will make the 8 next year which means team changes will be at a minimum. How long do you expect the 'talented kids' to stick around for? not just NYC but VTK also would be closer to NRL elsewhere as was the case when Jesse Sene-Lafao left.

We debuted 2 players in a re-building year. off the top of my Head Manly 8 and Melbourne 5 yet both were still top 4. So kids can do the depth job easily and then re-assess

I think the production line is just starting to roll. This year, Jennings, Cartwright and a few others got a spell at the Wolves. Next year there will be others and a few will be promoted to Wolves (or Panthers reggies as it will now be called) and will get a spell at first grade. Eventually, you will see a continual supply of young players moving up to the level above and then dropping down so that by the time a 20 year old hits first grade they have already played 10+ games in reggies and have developed their physical capability. Better still, in the second year under Gus and Ivan the reggies and U20's are of sufficient quality that the players moving up aren't dropping into teams that get flogged every week.

It is more than a coincidence that we are starting to get competitive in the lower grades now that Ivan is here. The Warriors were strong through all levels by the time Ivan left. Incidentally, I spoke to a member of the Panther's management team and he said that Matty Elliot was not interested in the other grades. His view was that he was hired to coach first grade and it was up to the club to get him the players he needs. That lack of interest led directly to a few juniors leaving because they were disillusioned.

I don't think you can be successful over a sustained period without a strong club through all levels. The Bronco's were masters at bringing through youngsters and blooding them in the Origin period and then dropping them back down. A year or two later those juniors would become regular first graders. You can't buy success in the NRL because of the salary cap. Development is everything.

 

[Pomoz]

Moylan and Anderson that was it for Debutants.

Actually, Taylor was a debutant for us as well. He is playing for the Wolves on Sunday.

 

[Pomoz]

No I didn't quote them based on age, I quoted them based on having had no or very little experience playing against men before playing NRL. They're also freakish talents, just like Cartwright. Papalii is another, debut under 20 with no experience against men, now a SOO rep at 21. Injuries can and will happen to anyone at any point.

Chris, the point I was making is that TVS is an exception and even so will have played reggies first. Last he year he played NSW cup, U20's and had a couple of first grade appearances. He is 20 years old, not 18. Cartwright will be 19 and will have a number of reggies games under his belt next year and I wouldn't be surprised if he gets a run in first grade for a couple of games. Papali had a similar development path at Canberra. He debuted at 19 and sat on the bench for half of his 14 games in 2011.

I am sure he will hit the gym big time in the off season and with that extra year under his belt, Cartwright will get a run.