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2019 Top 30

franklin2323

Immortal
Messages
33,547
Hook was successful in my view, but his achievements wasn't why he was sacked. Hook was sacked for the board's belief that the semis is as good as it gets and we can go no higher under his coaching. The board wanted more.

Gus isn't the coach. He is measured on more than just coaching first grade. Hence my comment about memberships and success in other grades, he also oversaw completion of the academy. The board obviously believe that as the GM, Gus can still improve the club. Probably because he has done exactly that at another club, as well as being successful as a coach at 3 different clubs. If they didn't think he could take them to the next level, I'm sure he would have been sacked by now.

Gus isn't perfect and makes mistakes, but without him we would just be the same mediocre to below average club we were, winning a premiership once every twenty years followed by wooden spoons and anonymity.

Same could be said for Gus' cap management.

Once Latu went last off season we were cap compliant.. Then lost Bryce didn't replace him money wise. Gained no one of note but less than 12 months later we lose more.

What point is good juniors if you waste that resource at FG level? Gus has done some good things but he is 61 and doing several highly stressful jobs. Time to get a succession plan in place
 

franklin2323

Immortal
Messages
33,547
Gus has done some fantastic things here and we are miles ahead of where we were but he's made more than a few mistakes lately that should have ended in instant dismissal.

This. The last few years haven't been some of his best yet because of the past it is overlooked
 

mxlegend99

Referee
Messages
23,496
How much money are we paying for sacking a recently re-signed coach? The same coach signed without an interview... There is one
Sacking Ivan. Re-hiring Ivan. One or both of those was a mistake.

Hiring Hook without interviewing anyone was a mistake. Extending him last year only to ssck him this year was a mistake.

Our cap management has made a lot of mistakes recently. Being forced to release players to stay under the cap. Not sure how anyone can think its good management when you need to shed ~5 players a season to be cap compliant.

2017: tmm. Hiku. Moylan. Carty. Latu. Rein. Just enough to fit Maloney in apparently.
2018. Wallace. Browne. Peachey. CHN. Mckendry? Just enough to be under the cap apparently.

Now the reasons for players leaving range from forced retirement through to us pushing them out or them wanting out. But the fact remains in the past 2 seasons weve cut 10+ players early to sign 1 top 17 player and keep the rest of what we had together. Thats poor cap management.

That's why ive been livid since we went out paying overs for Tamou. Ontop of already having paid overs for Merrin. Only for both to plod along. Mez was understandable but still a poor decision to invest so much in. While Tamou has been a huge mistake considering what it cost us. Paying overs to these guys HAD to affect our cap. Even moreso when we pay overs to every singe guy in the team. God forbid a reserve grader only earns $100k a year.

Gus has made mistakes. His mistakes require 'luck' to fix. Medical retirements or players accepting job offers elsewhere. Where would our cap be if we didnt suffer injuries and players wanted to see out their contracts? Spending say $10.5m (just a figure for my example) and then offloading $1m to get back under the cap means we made mistakes that needed to be rectified
 

Pomoz

Bench
Messages
3,015
Sacking Ivan. Re-hiring Ivan. One or both of those was a mistake.

Hiring Hook without interviewing anyone was a mistake. Extending him last year only to ssck him this year was a mistake.

Our cap management has made a lot of mistakes recently. Being forced to release players to stay under the cap. Not sure how anyone can think its good management when you need to shed ~5 players a season to be cap compliant.

2017: tmm. Hiku. Moylan. Carty. Latu. Rein. Just enough to fit Maloney in apparently.
2018. Wallace. Browne. Peachey. CHN. Mckendry? Just enough to be under the cap apparently.

Now the reasons for players leaving range from forced retirement through to us pushing them out or them wanting out. But the fact remains in the past 2 seasons weve cut 10+ players early to sign 1 top 17 player and keep the rest of what we had together. Thats poor cap management.

That's why ive been livid since we went out paying overs for Tamou. Ontop of already having paid overs for Merrin. Only for both to plod along. Mez was understandable but still a poor decision to invest so much in. While Tamou has been a huge mistake considering what it cost us. Paying overs to these guys HAD to affect our cap. Even moreso when we pay overs to every singe guy in the team. God forbid a reserve grader only earns $100k a year.

Gus has made mistakes. His mistakes require 'luck' to fix. Medical retirements or players accepting job offers elsewhere. Where would our cap be if we didnt suffer injuries and players wanted to see out their contracts? Spending say $10.5m (just a figure for my example) and then offloading $1m to get back under the cap means we made mistakes that needed to be rectified
Most of this is speculation. You don't know what players have been paid. It's your opinion about what is overs, the market decides what the going rate is, nobody else. It's your opinion Tamou was a massive mistake. I don't agree. Again this is all opinion. You are "livid" based on numbers speculated on by journalists.

I can't argue that hiring a CEO was done professionally. Clearly it wasn't. Whether Hook should have been extended is a matter of opinion. Same as the Cleary sacking. Those decisions have cost some money, although we don't know how much. However, we also don't know how much money Gould has saved in moving players on and negotiating contracts and finding sponsors. Although, you seem to think players moving on is luck, hmmm. Do we ignore the credit/plus side of the ledger, or, only focus on the negative/debit side of the ledger? If we sacked every GM who made a mistake, we would have a new one every six months.

You are focusing on HOW, Gus does his job. You would do it differently. But of course you would. You don't have access to the same information as he does, you have less experience in management of rugby league and in senior management in general. You have no idea what the market rates are for players, how much they have been signed for and what the actual cap looks likes right now.

You should focus on RESULTS. Are we growing memberships? Are we successful in lower grades and therefore getting a return on our investment in juniors? Are we qualifying for semi final football? Are we generating rep players? Are sponsorships increasing? Are we staying within the football departments cost budget? Do we have a strategic plan for the next five years? Do we have a clear understanding of our roster commitment and cap management for the next five years? Obviously, we want a premiership and if that was the only measure, we might sack him. Since we win one only every twenty years I think we can cut him some slack for a little bit longer. I'm sure there are other measure of success I haven't thought of, but that's how we should judge him, actual results.

For some reason, you don't like the results he has has achieved and want him sacked because you don't like the HOW. The results don't seem to support your view as a reason to sack him. Do you have access to other information we don't have?
 

Abacus

Juniors
Messages
2,128
Easy to be critical when you're oblivious to the reality of what is involved in someone else's job. Of course Gus has made mistakes - everyone does in any role. However, cap management is not 1 of them. Retaining Yeo, RCG, Blake, Kikau, Leota, Edwards, DWZ, Cleary, Mansour & May as their values increase is no mean feat and requires someone experienced who knows what they're doing. Flexibility in cap management is paramount.

For example, using the CHN example, he was re-signed after 10 NRL games. Since then Yeo & Kikau have established themselves as our 1st choice 2nd rowers and both resigned in the last 12 months. CHN (& Peachey for that matter) would need to face being a bench player for his next contract or go to a club lacking depth in his position to earn better money. Before 2018, the club probably thinks it can retain Kikau for say $300k. During 2018 his value jumps to $450k (higher for the more desparate clubs). Need to find that extra $150k from somewhere - meaning flexibility to move another player on.

I don't want to discourage others from giving their opinion but uninformed opinions add no value and provide misinformation to other forumites - almost our own form of fake news.
 

TheFrog

Coach
Messages
14,300
2017:
Not sure how anyone can think its good management when you need to shed ~5 players a season to be cap compliant.
2017: tmm. Hiku. Moylan. Carty. Latu. Rein.
2018. Wallace. Browne. Peachey. CHN. Mckendry?

Not nearly all of them were shed because of the cap. Wallace, Browne and (probably) McKendry can no longer play the game. TMM, Cartwright and Moylan were for completely different, personal reasons. Hiku was a poor signing in the first place and doing his ACL didn't help. Rein wouldn't have saved us a razoo off the cap but allowed the likes of Egan to come into the squad. He didn't want to play reserve grade forever. Don't know what Latu was on but disappointed to see him go and he hasn't kicked on. He, Peachey and CHN appear to be cap related.
 

franklin2323

Immortal
Messages
33,547
Carty wasn't released for cap reasons... Yet he wasn't replaced either nor did letting him go allow us to keep the team together. Given we lost Peachey and CHN less than a year later. So how can that be good cap management?
 

franklin2323

Immortal
Messages
33,547
Easy to be critical when you're oblivious to the reality of what is involved in someone else's job. Of course Gus has made mistakes - everyone does in any role. However, cap management is not 1 of them. Retaining Yeo, RCG, Blake, Kikau, Leota, Edwards, DWZ, Cleary, Mansour & May as their values increase is no mean feat and requires someone experienced who knows what they're doing. Flexibility in cap management is paramount.

For example, using the CHN example, he was re-signed after 10 NRL games. Since then Yeo & Kikau have established themselves as our 1st choice 2nd rowers and both resigned in the last 12 months. CHN (& Peachey for that matter) would need to face being a bench player for his next contract or go to a club lacking depth in his position to earn better money. Before 2018, the club probably thinks it can retain Kikau for say $300k. During 2018 his value jumps to $450k (higher for the more desparate clubs). Need to find that extra $150k from somewhere - meaning flexibility to move another player on.

I don't want to discourage others from giving their opinion but uninformed opinions add no value and provide misinformation to other forumites - almost our own form of fake news.

And Bryce? What about McKendry?

It doesn't matter how many get tapped on the shoulder we still lose guys for 'cap' reasons
 

Abacus

Juniors
Messages
2,128
Sacking Ivan. Re-hiring Ivan. One or both of those was a mistake.
Alternative theory:

Sacking Ivan at end of 2015 - right decision. He had been rebuilding the team for 4 years but further work was needed to bring through the new blood. This included bringing Nathan in which Ivan was reportedly reluctant to do. To get through to now, Ivan would have been rebuilding for 7 seasons. Not sure we could have won the comp in any of the past 3 years, but who knows. Main change might be we retained Moylan.

Re-hiring Ivan now - Board decision. Is it the right 1? We'll know in 2-3 seasons, hopefully sooner.
 

Abacus

Juniors
Messages
2,128
And Bryce? What about McKendry?

It doesn't matter how many get tapped on the shoulder we still lose guys for 'cap' reasons
What about Bryce? He was struggling during his last year here and struggled further in 2018. Are you suggesting you want Bryce on your cap for $500k (reportedly) playing the way he has been? There's practical cap management and plain ideologically stupid cap management. Happy for you to decide which retaining Bryce falls into. If you're talking about his cash, you do realise we resigned Waqa, Yeo, Cleary, Edwards, RCG in the past 12 months - do you think they're on the same cash as last year?

McKendry is not yet released as I understand it. This means his contract may yet be included in the 2019 cap and he'll be player 30 in our 2019 squad. I think I saw yesterday that Watmough's insurance claim was settled at 50%. If the same thing happens with McKendry, the uninsured 50% counts on the 2019 cap. Point being until McKendry is officially released, his cap value can't be spent elsewhere.
 

mxlegend99

Referee
Messages
23,496
Not nearly all of them were shed because of the cap. Wallace, Browne and (probably) McKendry can no longer play the game. TMM, Cartwright and Moylan were for completely different, personal reasons. Hiku was a poor signing in the first place and doing his ACL didn't help. Rein wouldn't have saved us a razoo off the cap but allowed the likes of Egan to come into the squad. He didn't want to play reserve grade forever. Don't know what Latu was on but disappointed to see him go and he hasn't kicked on. He, Peachey and CHN appear to be cap related.
You're missing the point. Every player that left for any reason at all was taking up space in our cap which was freed up. Whether he retires of chooses yo leave us... that money is freed up.

Except we don't have any free cap space. If they didn't leave someone else would have to leave instead because we spent above the salary cap.

Needing ~5 players to leave each season to be under the cap is terrible management. Obviously we couldnt help Wallace, Browne or Mckendry being injured. But being in the position where that shit helps you get under the cap rather than having money available to hit the market is a mistake.

When other clubs and/or coaches do it they get slammed for it. Ie. Bulldogs and Dezzie. We've had better results on the field. But the cap management is very similar. They spent wrlland truly over what the cap was meant to be and are needing to shed players to fix it. These issues began when teams were guessing what the caop was going to be. We clearly guessed way too high. Just as Bulldogs did.
 

franklin2323

Immortal
Messages
33,547
What about Bryce? He was struggling during his last year here and struggled further in 2018. Are you suggesting you want Bryce on your cap for $500k (reportedly) playing the way he has been? There's practical cap management and plain ideologically stupid cap management. Happy for you to decide which retaining Bryce falls into. If you're talking about his cash, you do realise we resigned Waqa, Yeo, Cleary, Edwards, RCG in the past 12 months - do you think they're on the same cash as last year?

McKendry is not yet released as I understand it. This means his contract may yet be included in the 2019 cap and he'll be player 30 in our 2019 squad. I think I saw yesterday that Watmough's insurance claim was settled at 50%. If the same thing happens with McKendry, the uninsured 50% counts on the 2019 cap. Point being until McKendry is officially released, his cap value can't be spent elsewhere.

No but where did Bryce's money go? Releasing him had to be done all things considered but we didn't bring in anyone fullstop. So where did we spend the $500k
 

mxlegend99

Referee
Messages
23,496
No but where did Bryce's money go? Releasing him had to be done all things considered but we didn't bring in anyone fullstop. So where did we spend the $500k
Clearly his $500k went to the player promoted to his top 30 spot. We dont believe in paying minimum wage.

So when we cut Latu and Moylan to fit in Jimmy. We had no money left and a top 30spot to fill.

Carty money goes toward 2 minimum wage players (one replacing Latu, one replacing Carty)... and its great cap management because Carty was poor for Titans.

Just ignore thatwe f**ked up initially in overpaying these guys and had to cut them to be under the cap. And the fact we overpay literally everyone forcing us to cycle through so many players.
 

franklin2323

Immortal
Messages
33,547
You're missing the point. Every player that left for any reason at all was taking up space in our cap which was freed up. Whether he retires of chooses yo leave us... that money is freed up.

Except we don't have any free cap space. If they didn't leave someone else would have to leave instead because we spent above the salary cap.

Needing ~5 players to leave each season to be under the cap is terrible management. Obviously we couldnt help Wallace, Browne or Mckendry being injured. But being in the position where that shit helps you get under the cap rather than having money available to hit the market is a mistake.

When other clubs and/or coaches do it they get slammed for it. Ie. Bulldogs and Dezzie. We've had better results on the field. But the cap management is very similar. They spent wrlland truly over what the cap was meant to be and are needing to shed players to fix it. These issues began when teams were guessing what the caop was going to be. We clearly guessed way too high. Just as Bulldogs did.

Someone on here mentioned Egan has decent offers for him. As CHN did last year. That is the kind of stuff that blows the cap out over paying on locals/depth
 
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